Topics

Restoration of GD #8, #9 and #10

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

(Changing to a smaller font isn't working for me.)
Kenichi Matsumoto is restoring GD #8, #9 and #10.

http://boogiefujii.jp/d_1807.htm

Open this using a Google browser and then the “Translate” button. (See below)

Here’s some of his work: https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/14175455152

July 22 (Sun)


Kenichi Matsumoto is the model achievement award this year, as already announced in the July news book “Announcement from the Japan Railway Model Association”. This year will be the 50th anniversary of the publication of “Smoke”, and at the International Railroad Model Convention in August, there will be a talk show that tells the story behind the half-life of Matsu and Ken, as well as the award ceremony. Please come and join us. Then, I will visit Matsumoto's residence to meet with them. If you are familiar with Mr. Matsumoto, you may be familiar with e-mail magazine, but now Mr. Matsumoto was entrusted with the regeneration of the early three locomotives that Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned down G & D railway put on salt. Have been sent. I was able to see it too. No. 9 and No. 10 dock side saddle tanks and American No. 8 unit. Unit 10 is a new model made by Nikko model (SAKURA), but Units 8 and 9 are the first HO products made in the 1940s. If you are a model fan over a certain age, John Allen and the G & D Railroad have a belief that you felt a devastating impact, like when you first saw a Hollywood movie or when you first heard Western rock. think. The fact that you can see the actual thing is as if you were able to see the burnt mural painting of Horyuji Kondo. As we will talk about the details later, today we will start with only facts. Wait for the follow-up.
-----------------------

I must admit, I have mixed feelings about this.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

David Woodrell
 

Hi, Tom,

Do you have any information on how these locos were acquired by Mr. Matsumoto?  Were they in "The Satchel"?  If not, where did they come from, and more importantly, are they legitimate JA engines?

Thanks,

Dave

Matt Hosford
 

Tom, 

Tough one for sure.

I would lean towards preservation only or a creation of a period correct clone for side by side or special presentation's. 

My thoughts:
I have a few old cars (automobiles). I could restore them to nut bolt new and have another old car that looks like everybody else's restored old car (parked, life paused)....or.....I can restore the drivetrain (safety) polish the aftermath of lifes' use (presentable) go get some custard and add to the cars life story.  I enjoy answering, "When are you going to paint this car?" with the story of the cars' life and what it means to me........BTW old car guys are just care takers, some just longer then others.
  Don't get me wrong, I do belive that some things in life should be brought back to thier day one, day two glory.  I just think that John's train's tell a complete "life" story just the way they are (imagination).  I would really dislike the story to be ended in "restored by master craftsman 2019"....no disrespect to Kenichi Matsumoto.

thanks


--
Matt Hosford
Wurn & Whythyrd Lines

David Woodrell
 

Well,  I'm going to answer my own question here, or at least pass on the answer I just received from Charlie Getz, compliments to Tom Grant's referral.  I think you'll all enjoy and be excited about it.

Do you have any information on how these locos were acquired by Mr. Matsumoto?  Were they in "The Satchel"?  If not, where did they come from, and more importantly, are they legitimate JA engines?


Yes, I know since I sent them to Kenichi and picked up restored #10 last October. He is working on #8. You can read the whole story in MR in February 2020. Yes they are from the satchel and yes, I have most of the satchel contents at my house. Those were the best 3 of the lot. Most are unrecognizable. Yes these are legit G&D. Kenichci did an amazing job on #10. It runs like a watch including the original light bulb with a duplicate motor (same type as used by maker Sakura). 95% is original. 

Number's 8 and 10 will be on display with a JA constructed car, his business cards, the original Timesaver and motive power from friends Whit Towers, Jim Findley and Bill McClanahan in Sacto at the CSRM as part of the NMRA Exhibit "The Magic of Scale Model Railroading" which opens late October. 

Hope this helps and pass the word. 

Thanks, 

Charlie

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Hi Dave,

Yes, all three locos were in Rod Smith's satchel. According to Randy Decker, who spoke with him, Rod donated all of the "survivors" to the NMRA. My assumption is that all, or some of them, will be displayed in their new museum. I don't know who he gave them to, nor who sent the three locos to Mr. Matsumoto. We do know that that decision was not Rod's. I don't know what Rod how him feels about it.

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 05:18 PM, Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) wrote:
I don't know what Rod how him feels about it.
Lord, make that "I don't know how Rod feels about it."

Long day I guess.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Matt,

FWIW, I'm with you and so is Dave Gorelle. We think that they should just leave JA's locos the way they are -- they are legendary artifacts of the fire that consumed the GD, after all. Just display another set painted by whoever to show what the locos originally looked like. We think that would have paid the best tribute to John and the GD. Duplicates of these models can be obtained (e.g., via eBay) and, then slightly modified and painted to match the original. Decades from now maybe some will think these locos survived the fire and that John built and painted them.

I have studied the "burned" locos to see what modifications John did, or didn't do. There were definitely a few surprises. For example, I spent a lot time cutting windows in the front cab of my Dockside, only to find out that John didn't! He just built a window frame and painted the window black. He did the same thing with #49 4-6-0.

Well, not everyone will agree with us … and I get that.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Dave,

Thanks for the posting. Nice to know where the Timesaver ended up and more locos from Whit, Jim and Bill. Great news about the opening, too. Those business cards were probably the ones Findley made.

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

So am I.  For what it's worth; if ANY of those loco's were good enough to try and restore.  (And when I say "restore" I mean if you can rebuild a damaged engine using 70% of its original parts to working order..)      then perhaps this would be an honorable and worthwhile pursuit.    But if the engines (as these that were chosen seem to have been) are so badly damaged that you can't really even used the body, then what's the point...?   
      To have a new engine that has SOME of the original driver wheels or a rod......? or perhaps the underframe that no one can see...?  or some of the screws or a sand dome?  I'd rather see the damaged engine in a case sadly sitting with the others...   And good reproductions sitting next to them to show what they once were.. 

  Johns story is a tragic story... !   His story was one of triumph on a monumental scale in model railroading but an ending that was just horrific and brutal. So brutal his legacy only remains from photographs that were taken before he died or in the very last week of the layouts existence after that January day.  People can go walk past a case and see the tragedy of the fire...  but JOhns Life and his legacy LIVE in the photographs that were put on display for everyone to see and talk about and for groups to form around...   The celebration of Johns achievements are the REAL STORY....!   That celebration already exists right on the pages of www.GDLines.org.    And in the items and things we all share here as friend and fans of John Allen.     This is the beating heart of The Wizard of Monterey.

I am glad the museum exists and more items may come to light because of it....    But the best place to see John's legacy is in here or on Peter Prunka's pages that Jeff keeps up and running by himself....  !        We are so lucky...  I know...  I thought I was going to have to build my project with only the photos in Linns book and NO help from Klamback for better resolutions much less now views....  I applaud everyone who has shared the things they have with us all...!   You guys are the heroes of Johns story.. You rescued it from those who wish to keep it hidden for whatever reasons or to sell it.   

I got off on a rant....  What were we talking about?     

    Randy



    

Michael Rozeboom
 

On 2019-08-29 10:31 p.m., Randy Lee Decker wrote:
So am I.  For what it's worth; if ANY of those loco's were good enough to try and restore.  (And when I say "restore" I mean if you can rebuild a damaged engine using 70% of its original parts to working order..)      then perhaps this would be an honorable and worthwhile pursuit.    But if the engines (as these that were chosen seem to have been) are so badly damaged that you can't really even used the body, then what's the point...?   
      To have a new engine that has SOME of the original driver wheels or a rod......? or perhaps the underframe that no one can see...?  or some of the screws or a sand dome?  I'd rather see the damaged engine in a case sadly sitting with the others...   And good reproductions sitting next to them to show what they once were..

Agreed.  They should have been left as they were. Building a close reproduction for display would be acceptable.  As an artifact, restoring it removes its legitimacy as an original.



--




Michael Rozeboom


Team Amiga

DCC Wiki Admin

Charles Kinzer
 

There are some interesting points of view here.  Mine is that the museum visitors are mostly the general public, not model railroaders, and even among model railroaders not all that many G&D aficionados nowadays.  In a museum (and I’m a member of a railroad museum), there should be an effort to “interpret” which can mean “to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate”.

 

From what I’ve seen mentioned, the options to show a physical John Allen engine (rather than just a photo) are:

 

  • Show it as it exists today – burned and would probably be thrown out if not John Allen’s.  This is probably not a good way to “interpret” John Allen’s work.
  • Make a duplicate – It could visually look nearly identical, but has no John Allen provenance physically.  (You could make one, or a hundred.)
  • Restoration – Has the bones or more of an actual John Allen engine and also looks like it did in its hey day.

 

Especially considering that a burned up engine may not be something suitable for a display called “The Magic of Model Railroading”, the restoration approach seems to “check the most boxes” for a public museum display and is, in fact, what is done with all manner of prototype equipment.

 

I know there will be no convincing a person who views anything plucked from the ashes as somehow sacrosanct, but they can always go to the depressing photos of the burned out hulks at the gdlines site.  None of us can really speak for John Allen, but I suspect that (with the exception of the “burned” Teaby Fire Extinguisher Co.) that he would not wish to display his work in a burned up state.

 

And the California State Railroad Museum is full of railroad equipment that has had extensive restoration.  I’m quite sure the general public gets far more enjoyment from seeing each piece look like it did in its glory days than the condition (often terrible) before restoration.  And after, all, restoration is done for other artists’ work, such as Rembrandt.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Michael Rozeboom
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 4:19 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Restoration of GD #8, #9 and #10

 

On 2019-08-29 10:31 p.m., Randy Lee Decker wrote:

So am I.  For what it's worth; if ANY of those loco's were good enough to try and restore.  (And when I say "restore" I mean if you can rebuild a damaged engine using 70% of its original parts to working order..)      then perhaps this would be an honorable and worthwhile pursuit.    But if the engines (as these that were chosen seem to have been) are so badly damaged that you can't really even used the body, then what's the point...?   
      To have a new engine that has SOME of the original driver wheels or a rod......? or perhaps the underframe that no one can see...?  or some of the screws or a sand dome?  I'd rather see the damaged engine in a case sadly sitting with the others...   And good reproductions sitting next to them to show what they once were..

Agreed.  They should have been left as they were. Building a close reproduction for display would be acceptable.  As an artifact, restoring it removes its legitimacy as an original.

 

 

--

 

 

 

Michael Rozeboom

 

Team Amiga

DCC Wiki Admin

 

Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Burned hulks on DGLInes are historic documentation and so many curious people wanted to see them they were shared...  if you looked around you'd find HUNDREDS of wonderful photos that are not depressing..    many replica engines...  Your brief description of GDLInes seems like an insult Chuck... if you did not mean that then you should perhaps clarify...   and again,  a restoration of an engine is OK with me as long as there is enough of it that is usable to warrant this.
   
   Now no one said they are "sacred".   But in some ways perhaps they are.   To some of us, "John Allen" means more than to others.   Some people who actually knew John have been insulting him for 50 years by keeping his story hidden rather than helping to tell it.....  so there is no rule to follow here.  a personas age or their closeness to John holds no higher moral ground as far as an opinion on John or his things goes. 

     The Museum will do a good job....  Rod Smith thought it was the best disposition for the engines.   I am very curious to see what Mr. Matsumoto does with these.  Many of us will never be able to travel to see this museum.   Perhaps the museum could share their things with the GDLines.org site...   They can go there themselves and use photographs for Johns exhibit..  It seems it would be fair if they offered the same right back.   Historians and Curators alike...   All SHARING Johns story.  Not hiding it and hoarding it.    
 

Charles Kinzer
 

I have not only “looked around” on the gdlines site, but I am one of the original team who helped its creation (and even helped fund the first scanner for Keith), although my site contribution was smaller role than others such as Peter Prunka for whom I provided a lot of proofreading.  I also provided a lot of PFM advertising photo scans (also provided that info for 12 new pages in the expanded new G&D book).  So that is my bona fides.

 

If you are somehow equating my suggestion that showing burned out hulks doesn’t fit the display goals as my “insulting” the work of the display, I think you are way, way off base.

 

Regarding the gdlines site:  It was always meant to have ALL things John Allen that could be found.  A museum display is not, and cannot, be the same.

 

There was only one exception I know of at the site.  Peter Prunka bowed to political correctness and balked at putting the August, 1952 RMC back cover Varney ad featuring a large John Allen photo.  It had the Sorfeetz gang with cartoon bubbles of them speaking.  I argued that this sort of thing was part of the culture at the time and that “The Cisco Kid” was a popular TV show (1950 to 1956) and had the sidekick Pancho talk in that exaggerated manner.  (And it is probably no coincidence that on of the RMC ad characters is named “Pancho”.)  And not that many years later, the “Frito Bandito” was popular and still mainstream acceptable, until he wasn’t.  But mainly, this ad is part of John Allen history, RMC history, and American cultural history no matter what lens through which you view it.  But no dice with Peter.

 

Now, I wonder if the display at CSRM would display that ad today?

 

It IS at Jeff Witt’s site.  And here it is right here:

 

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Randy Lee Decker
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 7:47 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Restoration of GD #8, #9 and #10

 

Well Chuck.....  if you actually looked around in the GDLines site.     Your also see the wonderful work of other modelers who have many beautiful REPLICAS of JOHNS engines that celebrate JOHNS work. 

 To have documented the burned engines for the record and for the curious John Allen fans to see is NOT the HIGHLIGHT nor the premise of that site.   Another huge Point...  But an important historic tool to have.  Some people only chose to insult important work as perhaps they do not understand it.   .  

   As a man who work as a Museum Exhibit Specialist for many years and have held in my hands and worked with some of this country's earliest and most precious treasures... I can say.... with all the intricacies of display and storage and interpretation this museum can give......that;  "thousands of John Allen fans will never even see this museum"  Many can not make the trip or will never have time.   But they can click "for free" on the GDLInes site and have John Allen's entire work captured in images that were "SHARED" for us to see...   (Except for that last week)    (That last week does not exist on film)   (I WAS TOLD)   available to them in high resolution images to browse through and learn or to make copies from and/or to share.  And John's wonderful world (that he never charged anyone money to come see) is available in the same way JOHN lived his life and shared his work. 

  I am glad the NMRA museu is opening...  I would not ever insult this project..   I can't even imagine the mindset of anyone who would dare to insult the DGLines efforts to bring Johns work to all of us.   To see photos of the contents of the satchel or of the interior of Johns burned home is all part of JOHN'S tragic Story!     So is the story  of people who went to Johns home and (while he was reportedly weak and tired and lacking in enthusiasm and obviously (reportedly) losing his heart....in the very last days of his life...)  took photographs 50 years ago now and never shared them with anyone and are very aware of how many people want to see them.   That is also part of the history of John Allen's story.   I find insult in that fact.  But then that's just me. Some people think I am at fault for wanting to see John's story shared.   They are of course misguide and lacking in vision but it is still a fact.    

So take a look around GDLines webpages again Chuck  you might end up seeing the greatness and brilliance of sharing Johns story far more than you did before.  And I hope this helps....  

Randy

 

Gregg Tivnan
 

Mr Kinzer,

you can not be thanked enough for making an intelligent post on this site. I had given up hope until I read your post this morning.

Thank you,

Gregg Tivnan

On Friday, August 30, 2019, 9:15:49 AM CDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


There are some interesting points of view here.  Mine is that the museum visitors are mostly the general public, not model railroaders, and even among model railroaders not all that many G&D aficionados nowadays.  In a museum (and I’m a member of a railroad museum), there should be an effort to “interpret” which can mean “to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate”.

 

From what I’ve seen mentioned, the options to show a physical John Allen engine (rather than just a photo) are:

 

  • Show it as it exists today – burned and would probably be thrown out if not John Allen’s.  This is probably not a good way to “interpret” John Allen’s work.
  • Make a duplicate – It could visually look nearly identical, but has no John Allen provenance physically.  (You could make one, or a hundred.)
  • Restoration – Has the bones or more of an actual John Allen engine and also looks like it did in its hey day.

 

Especially considering that a burned up engine may not be something suitable for a display called “The Magic of Model Railroading”, the restoration approach seems to “check the most boxes” for a public museum display and is, in fact, what is done with all manner of prototype equipment.

 

I know there will be no convincing a person who views anything plucked from the ashes as somehow sacrosanct, but they can always go to the depressing photos of the burned out hulks at the gdlines site.  None of us can really speak for John Allen, but I suspect that (with the exception of the “burned” Teaby Fire Extinguisher Co.) that he would not wish to display his work in a burned up state.

 

And the California State Railroad Museum is full of railroad equipment that has had extensive restoration.  I’m quite sure the general public gets far more enjoyment from seeing each piece look like it did in its glory days than the condition (often terrible) before restoration.  And after, all, restoration is done for other artists’ work, such as Rembrandt.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Michael Rozeboom
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 4:19 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Restoration of GD #8, #9 and #10

 

On 2019-08-29 10:31 p.m., Randy Lee Decker wrote:

So am I.  For what it's worth; if ANY of those loco's were good enough to try and restore.  (And when I say "restore" I mean if you can rebuild a damaged engine using 70% of its original parts to working order..)      then perhaps this would be an honorable and worthwhile pursuit.    But if the engines (as these that were chosen seem to have been) are so badly damaged that you can't really even used the body, then what's the point...?   
      To have a new engine that has SOME of the original driver wheels or a rod......? or perhaps the underframe that no one can see...?  or some of the screws or a sand dome?  I'd rather see the damaged engine in a case sadly sitting with the others...   And good reproductions sitting next to them to show what they once were..

Agreed.  They should have been left as they were. Building a close reproduction for display would be acceptable.  As an artifact, restoring it removes its legitimacy as an original.

 

 

--

 

 

 

Michael Rozeboom

 

Team Amiga

DCC Wiki Admin

 

Charles Kinzer
 

Oh come on.  You KNOW there are people who consider anything John Allen “sacred” (I actually said “sacrosanct” which is a rather different meaning but “sacred” is perhaps apt for some aficionados).

 

Frankly, if anybody thinks I have made an insult, that is their problem, not mine.  And I’ll say no more about that.

 

An interesting recent example of John Allen flotsam and jetsam are the various bits and pieces of electric switches and other items that somebody recently sold and were voraciously gobbled up.  True, these are actual John Allen relics that he actually handled and were actually in the basement.

 

Do they belong in something like a museum display?  I suppose such things could be involved in a display showing the technology available to John Allen at the time, or at least what he was in his scope of application.  But given very limited display space, I doubt such things would ever make the cut.  After all, it isn’t the John Allen museum.  Also, I may be mistaken, but I don’t think photos of these artifacts are at the gdlines site.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Randy Lee Decker
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 8:10 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Restoration of GD #8, #9 and #10

 

Burned hulks on DGLInes are historic documentation and so many curious people wanted to see them they were shared...  if you looked around you'd find HUNDREDS of wonderful photos that are not depressing..    many replica engines...  Your brief description of GDLInes seems like an insult Chuck... if you did not mean that then you should perhaps clarify...   and again,  a restoration of an engine is OK with me as long as there is enough of it that is usable to warrant this.
   
   Now no one said they are "sacred".   But in some ways perhaps they are.   To some of us, "John Allen" means more than to others.   Some people who actually knew John have been insulting him for 50 years by keeping his story hidden rather than helping to tell it.....  so there is no rule to follow here.  a personas age or their closeness to John holds no higher moral ground as far as an opinion on John or his things goes. 

     The Museum will do a good job....  Rod Smith thought it was the best disposition for the engines.   I am very curious to see what Mr. Matsumoto does with these.  Many of us will never be able to travel to see this museum.   Perhaps the museum could share their things with the GDLines.org site...   They can go there themselves and use photographs for Johns exhibit..  It seems it would be fair if they offered the same right back.   Historians and Curators alike...   All SHARING Johns story.  Not hiding it and hoarding it.    

 

 

Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Well I am glad you clarified this.  But when it was the ONLY point of reference you made to the site it seemed a bit harsh and not at all kind, considering the work and friendly atmosphere and sharing of Wonderful NON depressing items of interest that inhabit that site.     

As for the museum I hope it thrives.  I hope it finds the donation of many wonderful items that so deservedly need be shared with the world concerning John.  As for engines...   Lets see what they all look like and how much were salvageable and or not.   I am sure there are some that are not worth even touching by the look of them perhaps these examples have enough still good to work with that they just need some new paint and a few details remade.   

Randy  

Matt Hosford
 

All, 
Great opinions and further explaination of the topic. 

FWIW. I was not trying to "stir the soup" on this and if so, my appoligies.  I do beleive that visitors to the exhibit would take the time to view the loco's in their present condition and perhaps share what they saw with others more then just another restored locomotive.    I am sure that those in charge have to ponder these political, prototypical and other concerns as pointed out, not a easy task by any means.

If for nothing else it would be a good conversation starter....Kinda the general idea for the exhibit and a museum.

Tom, 
I guess you always take a chance when you let something go that has meaning to oneself.  All care takers face this one day or another.  I think Rod choose the best care taker moving forward.

Chuck, 
I did not know that someone sold items they got from the box, very suprised to hear that.  I am sure that was not Keith's intentions for the items he shared for the cost of shipping.

Randy,
I agree with your thoughts.  I just hope that the JA and GD items are presented well.  A postivie could be found in restoration photos as part of the display.....we will see.

Dave,
Thanks for posting Charlies response.
--
Matt Hosford
Wurn & Whythyrd Lines

Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Good points Matt.  


On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:01 AM Matt Hosford <8ballracing@...> wrote:
All, 
Great opinions and further explaination of the topic. 

FWIW. I was not trying to "stir the soup" on this and if so, my appoligies.  I do beleive that visitors to the exhibit would take the time to view the loco's in their present condition and perhaps share what they saw with others more then just another restored locomotive.    I am sure that those in charge have to ponder these political, prototypical and other concerns as pointed out, not a easy task by any means.

If for nothing else it would be a good conversation starter....Kinda the general idea for the exhibit and a museum.

Tom, 
I guess you always take a chance when you let something go that has meaning to oneself.  All care takers face this one day or another.  I think Rod choose the best care taker moving forward.

Chuck, 
I did not know that someone sold items they got from the box, very suprised to hear that.  I am sure that was not Keith's intentions for the items he shared for the cost of shipping.

Randy,
I agree with your thoughts.  I just hope that the JA and GD items are presented well.  A postivie could be found in restoration photos as part of the display.....we will see.

Dave,
Thanks for posting Charlies response.
--
Matt Hosford
Wurn & Whythyrd Lines