Topics

Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?


AndersE
 

An older photo on GandD@groups.io and a recent posting on Gorre & Daphetid Facebook group has had me thinking about diesels on the G&D (yes I know it’s blasphemy). The old photo shows a G&D engine in 2008, Armour Yellow and Mist Grey. While I agree that is a probable “G&D” engine in 2008 I like to imagine things might have looked a little different before that. We know the G&D had interchange with Southern Pacific (and the Tioga Pass). What if the SP took control when the old management was gone? Taking over the G&D and making it a subsidiary same way as the Cotton Belt, T&NO and NWP? Then we would have seen SP style engines, but they might still be lettered for the G&D. (sorry Tom, no Pine Ridge takeover in my timeline).

Those heavy ore trains over steep grades would need much horsepower and traction. Alco RSD-15 “Alligators” would be a good candidate, the SP moving them to the Akinbaks instead of Texas, might move some from the Cotton Belt also.

Regular freight trains could be handled by Alco road switchers like the RSD-5, again moved from Texas. I think the SP would keep the EMD SD “Cadillacs” for themselves.

Switching we could see Alco S2/S4 in keeping the G&D an all Alco operation for simpler maintenance.

Passenger service the PAs would not be suitable in the mountains. The SP did not have any Alco four axle cab-units but some road switchers with steam generators. But why wouldn’t they get some Alco FPAs, looks gorgeous in “Black Widow”.

In the 60s we would see Alco Centuries of different models: C-415, C-628 & C-630 and maybe even C-643DH.

Later in the 70s would probably appear tunnel motors and we might even see some kind of Speed Lettering after the Rio Grande merger. But probably it would be all SP then and later they would all dip into the yellow paint bucket.

Line drawings by Will Andersson, fonts by Peter Willard.


Russell Courtenay
 

Wow Anders, wow, that is good. 

I am a steam fan myself but do appreciate the first generation diesels that ran around smoking up the Bay Area when I was a kid.

My favorite loco of the modern age was the SD40T-2 tunnel motor in D&RGW black and orange... 

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Dec 2, 2020, at 1:58 PM, AndersE <groups.io@...> wrote:

An older photo on GandD@groups.io and a recent posting on Gorre & Daphetid Facebook group has had me thinking about diesels on the G&D (yes I know it’s blasphemy). The old photo shows a G&D engine in 2008, Armour Yellow and Mist Grey. While I agree that is a probable “G&D” engine in 2008 I like to imagine things might have looked a little different before that. We know the G&D had interchange with Southern Pacific (and the Tioga Pass). What if the SP took control when the old management was gone? Taking over the G&D and making it a subsidiary same way as the Cotton Belt, T&NO and NWP? Then we would have seen SP style engines, but they might still be lettered for the G&D. (sorry Tom, no Pine Ridge takeover in my timeline).

Those heavy ore trains over steep grades would need much horsepower and traction. Alco RSD-15 “Alligators” would be a good candidate, the SP moving them to the Akinbaks instead of Texas, might move some from the Cotton Belt also.

Regular freight trains could be handled by Alco road switchers like the RSD-5, again moved from Texas. I think the SP would keep the EMD SD “Cadillacs” for themselves.

Switching we could see Alco S2/S4 in keeping the G&D an all Alco operation for simpler maintenance.

Passenger service the PAs would not be suitable in the mountains. The SP did not have any Alco four axle cab-units but some road switchers with steam generators. But why wouldn’t they get some Alco FPAs, looks gorgeous in “Black Widow”.

In the 60s we would see Alco Centuries of different models: C-415, C-628 & C-630 and maybe even C-643DH.

Later in the 70s would probably appear tunnel motors and we might even see some kind of Speed Lettering after the Rio Grande merger. But probably it would be all SP then and later they would all dip into the yellow paint bucket.

Line drawings by Will Andersson, fonts by Peter Willard.

<GD_RSD15.png>
<GD_RSD5.png>
<GD_S2.png>
<GD_FPA2.png>
<GD_SD45T.png>


William Anderson
 

BLASPHEMY, PURE BLASPHEMY!



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Frank Rawson
 

Call out the inquisition !! Drag this heretic to the rack. Recant or be burned at the stake


-----Original Message-----
From: William Anderson via groups.io <wilmeaux@...>
To: GandD@groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 2, 2020 1:28 pm
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

BLASPHEMY, PURE BLASPHEMY!



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Charles Kinzer
 

John Allen himself had an excellent solution to this sort of thing:

 

 

A couple of Varney ads also included this scene with the properly dispatched purveyor of diesels.

 

I believe there was a photo in Model Railroader that included this scene, but the hapless diesel salesman had been photo-edited out.  Some of the hanging rope was still visible.

 

If anybody remembers what issue, let me know.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Frank Rawson via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 1:33 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

 

Call out the inquisition !! Drag this heretic to the rack. Recant or be burned at the stake

-----Original Message-----
From: William Anderson via groups.io <wilmeaux@...>
To: GandD@groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 2, 2020 1:28 pm
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

BLASPHEMY, PURE BLASPHEMY!

 


David
 

Hi All,

Actually I run a couple pair of DCC sound modified Kato cow and calf SP "tiger stripe" NW2s in my main yard at Ellison. Diesels are fine on the Dry Gulch & Western. Blasphemy no, besides as stated in the email, John's layout had SP interchange. I have to admit diesels do run better since there is less issues with them when compared with model steam locomotives. I run a couple of Pennsy Sharknose diesels on my layout but that is because I am also a Pennsy fan. You all can start throwing stones but reality is reality even in the model world!

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 12:58:20 PM PST, AndersE <groups.io@...> wrote:


An older photo on GandD@groups.io and a recent posting on Gorre & Daphetid Facebook group has had me thinking about diesels on the G&D (yes I know it’s blasphemy).The old photo shows a G&D engine in 2008, Armour Yellow and Mist Grey.While I agree that is a probable “G&D” engine in 2008 I like to imagine things might have looked a little different before that. We know the G&D had interchange with Southern Pacific (and the Tioga Pass). What if the SP took control when the old management was gone? Taking over the G&D and making it a subsidiary same way as the Cotton Belt, T&NO and NWP? Then we would have seen SP style engines, but they might still be lettered for the G&D. (sorry Tom, no Pine Ridge takeover in my timeline).

Those heavy ore trains over steep grades would need much horsepower and traction.Alco RSD-15 “Alligators” would be a good candidate, the SP moving them to the Akinbaks instead of Texas, might move some from the Cotton Belt also.

Regular freight trains could be handled by Alco road switchers like the RSD-5, again moved from Texas. I think the SP would keep the EMD SD “Cadillacs” for themselves.

Switching we could see Alco S2/S4 in keeping the G&D an all Alco operation for simpler maintenance.

Passenger service the PAs would not be suitable in the mountains. The SP did not have any Alco four axle cab-units but some road switchers with steam generators. But why wouldn’t they get some Alco FPAs, looks gorgeous in “Black Widow”.

In the 60s we would see Alco Centuries of different models:C-415, C-628 & C-630 and maybe even C-643DH.

Later in the 70s would probably appear tunnel motors and we might even see some kind of Speed Lettering after the Rio Grande merger. But probably it would be all SP then and later they would all dip into the yellow paint bucket.

Line drawings by Will Andersson, fonts by Peter Willard.


Michael Martin
 

The old DG&H steam engine broke down and gave up the ghost finally so to save costs they bought this relic and quickly threw it into operation.

Kind Regards

Michael Martin




Ken Moordigian
 

I saw those photos and gasped!  I could feel John gasping from the great beyond!

Now I'm thinking about my BLI NW2 with tiger stripe Cotton Belt lettering... and thinking...


-----Original Message-----
From: AndersE <groups.io@...>
To: GandD@groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 2, 2020 12:58 pm
Subject: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

An older photo on GandD@groups.io and a recent posting on Gorre & Daphetid Facebook group has had me thinking about diesels on the G&D (yes I know it’s blasphemy). The old photo shows a G&D engine in 2008, Armour Yellow and Mist Grey. While I agree that is a probable “G&D” engine in 2008 I like to imagine things might have looked a little different before that. We know the G&D had interchange with Southern Pacific (and the Tioga Pass). What if the SP took control when the old management was gone? Taking over the G&D and making it a subsidiary same way as the Cotton Belt, T&NO and NWP? Then we would have seen SP style engines, but they might still be lettered for the G&D. (sorry Tom, no Pine Ridge takeover in my timeline).
Those heavy ore trains over steep grades would need much horsepower and traction. Alco RSD-15 “Alligators” would be a good candidate, the SP moving them to the Akinbaks instead of Texas, might move some from the Cotton Belt also.
Regular freight trains could be handled by Alco road switchers like the RSD-5, again moved from Texas. I think the SP would keep the EMD SD “Cadillacs” for themselves.
Switching we could see Alco S2/S4 in keeping the G&D an all Alco operation for simpler maintenance.
Passenger service the PAs would not be suitable in the mountains. The SP did not have any Alco four axle cab-units but some road switchers with steam generators. But why wouldn’t they get some Alco FPAs, looks gorgeous in “Black Widow”.
In the 60s we would see Alco Centuries of different models: C-415, C-628 & C-630 and maybe even C-643DH.
Later in the 70s would probably appear tunnel motors and we might even see some kind of Speed Lettering after the Rio Grande merger. But probably it would be all SP then and later they would all dip into the yellow paint bucket.
Line drawings by Will Andersson, fonts by Peter Willard.


 

I got some rope and we need to have a neck tie party! I actually heard Johns gasp from the Great Beyond (no not the Great Divide)....the great beyond! 
On a like note I should report that the A&E went into diesels kicking and screaming. The government seized some of our old steamers during the war as an impediment to the war effort. They were going to upgrade them with new fire boxes and convert them to oil burners. Alas as soon as they got them away from us they scrapped them and gave us these shiny diesels. It seems they were built with HOR diesels which were a copy of a WW1 German U-boat engine that didn’t work out on the US Fleet boats. So they turned them into Boxcab diesels and gave them away to start an industry for after the war. They were very undependable and with all the mechanics in the military none of our steam people could fix them... an injector, a valve cover gasket, bleed the valves, clogged lube oil filters ... fuel filters ..... what’s that ??!!! 
We here at the A & E found them so bad that we numbered them all 666 ... calling them all seed of the devil. We tell them apart by the letter added after the number. 


Ken Moordigian
 

Russ,

Love the photo!  Great scene.  Where is the A&E located?  Any chance of visiting on our next trip if this country ever comes out of the %$&@ lockdown?

Ken & Patti



-----Original Message-----
From: Russ Desmond via groups.io <capdes101@...>
To: GandD@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2020 6:26 am
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

I got some rope and we need to have a neck tie party! I actually heard Johns gasp from the Great Beyond (no not the Great Divide)....the great beyond! 
On a like note I should report that the A&E went into diesels kicking and screaming. The government seized some of our old steamers during the war as an impediment to the war effort. They were going to upgrade them with new fire boxes and convert them to oil burners. Alas as soon as they got them away from us they scrapped them and gave us these shiny diesels. It seems they were built with HOR diesels which were a copy of a WW1 German U-boat engine that didn’t work out on the US Fleet boats. So they turned them into Boxcab diesels and gave them away to start an industry for after the war. They were very undependable and with all the mechanics in the military none of our steam people could fix them... an injector, a valve cover gasket, bleed the valves, clogged lube oil filters ... fuel filters ..... what’s that ??!!! 
We here at the A & E found them so bad that we numbered them all 666 ... calling them all seed of the devil. We tell them apart by the letter added after the number. 


 

Ken & Patti 
it’s located east of Mt Agamenticus in York Maine 
till then there’s some pictures of it in the photos section here in the G & D group


W.R.Dixon
 

The G&D we know and love was firmly in the steam era.
The locomotives were funky and old.

If we postulate a future for the G&D, there would come a time when the current steam locomotives would become uneconomical for the G&D to rebuild. I can see the G&D acquiring newer steam locomotives from other railroads as they dieselized.

But in time even these steam locomotives would have reach the end of their life.

So what would the G&D have done?

Knowing Johns quirkiness I don't see a fleet of F Units or GPs. Too boring.
I see more interesting models from Fairbanks Morse, Alco and Baldwins.
Perhaps Trainmasters on the heavy freights. Alco RS3s on the way freights. Baldwin switchers where necessary.
The passenger fleet would have been replaced with RDCs.

It would not be the G&D we love, but a Future G&D.

Just a thought.

Bill Dixon


Graham Stokes
 

Quite likely. Good thinking.
Graham


From: GandD@groups.io <GandD@groups.io> on behalf of W.R.Dixon <WRDixon@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 6:07:12 PM
To: GandD@groups.io <GandD@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?
 
The G&D we know and love was firmly in the steam era.
The locomotives were funky and old.

If we postulate a future for the G&D, there would come a time when the
current steam locomotives would become uneconomical for the G&D to
rebuild. I can see the G&D acquiring newer steam locomotives from other
railroads as they dieselized.

But in time even these steam locomotives would have reach the end of
their life.

So what would the G&D have done?

Knowing Johns quirkiness I don't see a fleet of F Units or GPs. Too boring.
I see more interesting models from Fairbanks Morse, Alco and Baldwins.
Perhaps Trainmasters on the heavy freights. Alco RS3s on the way
freights. Baldwin switchers where necessary.
The passenger fleet would have been replaced with RDCs.

It would not be the G&D we love, but a Future G&D.

Just a thought.

Bill Dixon






Thayer Syme
 

I guess it all depends on the age old balance of budget v desire.

My understanding is that Peter Jackson's aircraft company in NZ (The Vintage Aviator) has manufactured WWI aircraft engines from new, in order to authentically power the WWI aircraft they were also building.

http://www.thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/engines/mercedes-diiia-engine/build-story/reproduction

Truly, what's a few million between friends?

Thayer

On 12/3/20 9:07 PM, W.R.Dixon wrote:
The G&D we know and love was firmly in the steam era.
The locomotives were funky and old.

If we postulate a future for the G&D, there would come a time when the current steam locomotives would become uneconomical for the G&D to rebuild. I can see the G&D acquiring newer steam locomotives from other railroads as they dieselized.

But in time even these steam locomotives would have reach the end of their life.

So what would the G&D have done?

Knowing Johns quirkiness I don't see a fleet of F Units or GPs. Too boring.
I see more interesting models from Fairbanks Morse, Alco and Baldwins.
Perhaps Trainmasters on the heavy freights. Alco RS3s on the way freights. Baldwin switchers where necessary.
The passenger fleet would have been replaced with RDCs.

It would not be the G&D we love, but a Future G&D.

Just a thought.

Bill Dixon




Ken Moordigian
 

I agree on most of that.  I think John would have loved RDC's.  The GandD never had a lot of passenger traffic, and those small towns would stay small, methinks.  An RDC a day would be a perfect fit, maybe morning and night for worker transportation....

Definately NW2's and/or SW1200's.  I could see a single GP9 headed up to Andrews in the morning with loads to switch...
and probably a 4 function sound decoder to act as the "danger" car if the ride gets too jumpy! 
That would be 1 of the first things he would have done with DCC.  But I digress.

Even though John was entrenched in steam, he was always on the leading edge of the hobby.
That is what made his hobby career what it was.

-----Original Message-----
From: W.R.Dixon <WRDixon@...>
To: GandD@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2020 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

The G&D we know and love was firmly in the steam era.
The locomotives were funky and old.

If we postulate a future for the G&D, there would come a time when the
current steam locomotives would become uneconomical for the G&D to
rebuild. I can see the G&D acquiring newer steam locomotives from other
railroads as they dieselized.

But in time even these steam locomotives would have reach the end of
their life.

So what would the G&D have done?

Knowing Johns quirkiness I don't see a fleet of F Units or GPs. Too boring.
I see more interesting models from Fairbanks Morse, Alco and Baldwins.
Perhaps Trainmasters on the heavy freights. Alco RS3s on the way
freights. Baldwin switchers where necessary.
The passenger fleet would have been replaced with RDCs.

It would not be the G&D we love, but a Future G&D.

Just a thought.

Bill Dixon






Charles Kinzer
 

NW2’s and/or SW1200’s?  GP9?

 

John Allen already did that (for advertising).

 

Switcher:

 

 

GEEP:

 

 

Also had Varney ads with F Units in UP and GN paint schemes.

 

I’m not positive, but I think one ad even had the Aerotrain, but I can’t find it.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Ken Moordigian via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 7:44 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

 

I agree on most of that.  I think John would have loved RDC's.  The GandD never had a lot of passenger traffic, and those small towns would stay small, methinks.  An RDC a day would be a perfect fit, maybe morning and night for worker transportation....

 

Definately NW2's and/or SW1200's.  I could see a single GP9 headed up to Andrews in the morning with loads to switch...

and probably a 4 function sound decoder to act as the "danger" car if the ride gets too jumpy! 

That would be 1 of the first things he would have done with DCC.  But I digress.

 

Even though John was entrenched in steam, he was always on the leading edge of the hobby.

That is what made his hobby career what it was.

 

 


David
 

Yes, the AeroTrain crashed into a car at a grade crossing At Gorre.

Main thing is that diesels can be run and did (TR6 cow and calf) on the GD, but with my layout I am running diesels from other railroad companies. My railroad (DG&W) only uses steamers. I will have a couple gasatronics.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 08:24:13 PM PST, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


NW2’s and/or SW1200’s?  GP9?

 

John Allen already did that (for advertising).

 

Switcher:

 

 

GEEP:

 

 

Also had Varney ads with F Units in UP and GN paint schemes.

 

I’m not positive, but I think one ad even had the Aerotrain, but I can’t find it.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Ken Moordigian via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 7:44 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

 

I agree on most of that.  I think John would have loved RDC's.  The GandD never had a lot of passenger traffic, and those small towns would stay small, methinks.  An RDC a day would be a perfect fit, maybe morning and night for worker transportation....

 

Definately NW2's and/or SW1200's.  I could see a single GP9 headed up to Andrews in the morning with loads to switch...

and probably a 4 function sound decoder to act as the "danger" car if the ride gets too jumpy! 

That would be 1 of the first things he would have done with DCC.  But I digress.

 

Even though John was entrenched in steam, he was always on the leading edge of the hobby.

That is what made his hobby career what it was.

 

 


Charles Kinzer
 

Thanks to Jeff Witt’s list, I could see it was the Dec 58 MR and not RMC.

 

I don’t think this is scanned for the gdines site.

 

Notice that the building on the left seems to have gotten a “Varney Trains” sign.

 

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 8:34 PM
To: GandD@groups.io; GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] Gorre & Daphetid dieselisation?

 

Yes, the AeroTrain crashed into a car at a grade crossing At Gorre.

Main thing is that diesels can be run and did (TR6 cow and calf) on the GD, but with my layout I am running diesels from other railroad companies. My railroad (DG&W) only uses steamers. I will have a couple gasatronics.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)