Topics

A special Announcement: the GDRP has acquired Glenn Beier's 16mm film

Jeffrey L Witt
 

Thanks to the dogged persistence and exceptional investigative skills of one Randy Decker, we have purchased from the estate of Glenn Beier the 16mm film made in 1969 (and many other photos and items, too).

The film, or parts of it, are included in the Sunday River VHS/DVD that is available. I'm pretty sure that the transfers from the film will far exceed the quality of that video.

It will arrive today at CineLab, a professional movie lab in MA. They will scan it frame-by-frame at 2K (or better) resolution, so we should get some amazing stills (like the one Tom posted), as well as HD video to the limit of the original film resolution.

I will update the group on the progress, but please be patient as reviewing and presenting this material will take time. Charlie Getz has also expressed an interest, perhaps the footage will show up in the museum at some point.

Regards,

Jeff

Randy Lee Decker
 

Just to add some context. I found and I purchased Glenn's entire collection of negatives and the 16mm film and some letters and etc.     I knew it was a bit more than I could afford, but I bought everything and as to not make the deal complicated in getting Jeff involved I simply let him know what I was doing and asked if he'd be interested in the Film as it was hard for me to afford to afford the deal without some help.  From there, I sent Jeff the Film...  Let me say I was thrilled to have had this deal go this way.... as the movie needed to be preserved correctly.   This is priceless, One of a Kind Film Footage (the only ever taken from Johns layouts) and it is now in the best hands it could have ever ended up in....!    I am proud that this all went this way.  There were items that went with the film and it was wonderful to have been able to have made the deal and to also see to it things are preserved and shared...  All the large and medium format negatives I still have about 50+ in all... will be going to the GDLines site as well to be shared as a group of images from my small collection now. 

  I'd also like to mention...   After spooling out some of the film footage here before sending it on to Jeff.    And just using a simple magnifying glass I could see the 16mm film frames are as about as good as they can get...   Jeff and I are pretty sure they just projected the film on a screen and used a video camera to record and dub it to VHS...  and then later what Sunday River did the DVD footage... they just copied the VHS .....  This technique is of very low quality and explains the poor quality of the current DVD....  

  So now with the film found and in our hands....!    Jeff's new DVD will tell the tale..  It is our hope that many wonderful stills can now be made...  and I am hoping Jeff might be able to find a way to make copies of the movie for sale to generate some money for the site.  Anyway this is huge news in the John Allen front.  After much searching and finding some items have been thrown out as I was to late in my research and sleuthing...  It is good to have some success in the historic preservation story.   Jeff and I will have some fun new things to see soon.  
  
These items and photographs need to be found.  There is no reason not to ask people "what they plan to do with items"  A museum can be a great disposition for some things but so far, in Johns case...  it has been private ownership and the generosity of good people that are now telling Johns tale in the best way possible.  And the tale is free and of excellent copy quality on the memorial site that Jeff runs and maintains himself.   
   Museums will sometimes share photographs but they control the quality of the images copied... and they sell them they do not offer them for free.   The GDLines site is an amazing thing for this group to have access to.  I hope more photographs, some of which we all know exist, will end up being shared here.   There is no better place than Jeff's pages for anything John Allen related.  
   
    And let me also say.... for "anyone" who may have items of historic value concerning John Allen and his legacy, please realise it is so important that these items or images be shared and not kept in a box in a closet anymore.   Even if they are offered for sale, there is a chance that one or more of us in this group might be able to purchase them.   These items may finally see the light of day and help to tell John's tale.  Please contact me or Jeff and let us know what you have....  at least let us make an offer or find people who can help us and lets get John's Story documented even better.   

   Randy Decker
Great Divide Lines    



 

   


On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 9:57 AM Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks to the dogged persistence and exceptional investigative skills of one Randy Decker, we have purchased from the estate of Glenn Beier the 16mm film made in 1969 (and many other photos and items, too).

The film, or parts of it, are included in the Sunday River VHS/DVD that is available. I'm pretty sure that the transfers from the film will far exceed the quality of that video.

It will arrive today at CineLab, a professional movie lab in MA. They will scan it frame-by-frame at 2K (or better) resolution, so we should get some amazing stills (like the one Tom posted), as well as HD video to the limit of the original film resolution.

I will update the group on the progress, but please be patient as reviewing and presenting this material will take time. Charlie Getz has also expressed an interest, perhaps the footage will show up in the museum at some point.

Regards,

Jeff

Russell Courtenay
 

Wow guys this is some amazing stuff! I know of CineLab and their great work with a ‘wet gate’ process of converting film to digital as I have made several films and want to send them to CineLab when I get the funds!

Let me see if I can find their demo where they mixed classic 8mm shots with full HD, you can barely tell the difference! I am still a fan of film if it wasn’t so much work and expense to use!

Can’t wait to see the results! I hope you can make an appealing product, articles and/or museum piece out of it! Maybe all of the above!

I found it, I guess the company I am thinking of is CinePost:
https://vimeo.com/139512122

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Dec 20, 2019, at 9:06 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:

Just to add some context. I found and I purchased Glenn's entire collection of negatives and the 16mm film and some letters and etc.     I knew it was a bit more than I could afford, but I bought everything and as to not make the deal complicated in getting Jeff involved I simply let him know what I was doing and asked if he'd be interested in the Film as it was hard for me to afford to afford the deal without some help.  From there, I sent Jeff the Film...  Let me say I was thrilled to have had this deal go this way.... as the movie needed to be preserved correctly.   This is priceless, One of a Kind Film Footage (the only ever taken from Johns layouts) and it is now in the best hands it could have ever ended up in....!    I am proud that this all went this way.  There were items that went with the film and it was wonderful to have been able to have made the deal and to also see to it things are preserved and shared...  All the large and medium format negatives I still have about 50+ in all... will be going to the GDLines site as well to be shared as a group of images from my small collection now. 

  I'd also like to mention...   After spooling out some of the film footage here before sending it on to Jeff.    And just using a simple magnifying glass I could see the 16mm film frames are as about as good as they can get...   Jeff and I are pretty sure they just projected the film on a screen and used a video camera to record and dub it to VHS...  and then later what Sunday River did the DVD footage... they just copied the VHS .....  This technique is of very low quality and explains the poor quality of the current DVD....  

  So now with the film found and in our hands....!    Jeff's new DVD will tell the tale..  It is our hope that many wonderful stills can now be made...  and I am hoping Jeff might be able to find a way to make copies of the movie for sale to generate some money for the site.  Anyway this is huge news in the John Allen front.  After much searching and finding some items have been thrown out as I was to late in my research and sleuthing...  It is good to have some success in the historic preservation story.   Jeff and I will have some fun new things to see soon.  
  
These items and photographs need to be found.  There is no reason not to ask people "what they plan to do with items"  A museum can be a great disposition for some things but so far, in Johns case...  it has been private ownership and the generosity of good people that are now telling Johns tale in the best way possible.  And the tale is free and of excellent copy quality on the memorial site that Jeff runs and maintains himself.   
   Museums will sometimes share photographs but they control the quality of the images copied... and they sell them they do not offer them for free.   The GDLines site is an amazing thing for this group to have access to.  I hope more photographs, some of which we all know exist, will end up being shared here.   There is no better place than Jeff's pages for anything John Allen related.  
   
    And let me also say.... for "anyone" who may have items of historic value concerning John Allen and his legacy, please realise it is so important that these items or images be shared and not kept in a box in a closet anymore.   Even if they are offered for sale, there is a chance that one or more of us in this group might be able to purchase them.   These items may finally see the light of day and help to tell John's tale.  Please contact me or Jeff and let us know what you have....  at least let us make an offer or find people who can help us and lets get John's Story documented even better.   

   Randy Decker
Great Divide Lines    



 

   

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 9:57 AM Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks to the dogged persistence and exceptional investigative skills of one Randy Decker, we have purchased from the estate of Glenn Beier the 16mm film made in 1969 (and many other photos and items, too).

The film, or parts of it, are included in the Sunday River VHS/DVD that is available. I'm pretty sure that the transfers from the film will far exceed the quality of that video.

It will arrive today at CineLab, a professional movie lab in MA. They will scan it frame-by-frame at 2K (or better) resolution, so we should get some amazing stills (like the one Tom posted), as well as HD video to the limit of the original film resolution.

I will update the group on the progress, but please be patient as reviewing and presenting this material will take time. Charlie Getz has also expressed an interest, perhaps the footage will show up in the museum at some point.

Regards,

Jeff

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

This is amazing! Yes, great detective work! Thanks to both you and Jeff! Really looking forward to the results of your efforts.

I've seen a few videos and books by Glenn on the web. Did you purchase everything?

https://trainsondvd.co/cube/videos/sunday-river-productions/the-complete-west-side-railroad.html 

http://www.trainvideodepot.com/DVD-Feather-River-and-The-Hillcrest-by-Sunday-River_DVD-FRH

http://www.sundayriverproductions.com/logging/sierra-2-set

https://www.theshortline.com/product/the-complete-west-side-story-dvd-SRPTCWSS.html

 

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Donald Robichaud
 

This is fantastic, can only imagine how great is it to strike gold! This will most likely open up more investigation into the John Allen saga. Great work!

Russell Courtenay
 

Here is the movie where they seamlessly combine 8mm and 16mm classic movie shots with modern HD: https://youtu.be/EYJwHIkkFxc

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Dec 20, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Russell Courtenay via Groups.Io <walruswebtech@...> wrote:

Wow guys this is some amazing stuff! I know of CineLab and their great work with a ‘wet gate’ process of converting film to digital as I have made several films and want to send them to CineLab when I get the funds!

Let me see if I can find their demo where they mixed classic 8mm shots with full HD, you can barely tell the difference! I am still a fan of film if it wasn’t so much work and expense to use!

Can’t wait to see the results! I hope you can make an appealing product, articles and/or museum piece out of it! Maybe all of the above!

I found it, I guess the company I am thinking of is CinePost:
https://vimeo.com/139512122

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Dec 20, 2019, at 9:06 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:

Just to add some context. I found and I purchased Glenn's entire collection of negatives and the 16mm film and some letters and etc.     I knew it was a bit more than I could afford, but I bought everything and as to not make the deal complicated in getting Jeff involved I simply let him know what I was doing and asked if he'd be interested in the Film as it was hard for me to afford to afford the deal without some help.  From there, I sent Jeff the Film...  Let me say I was thrilled to have had this deal go this way.... as the movie needed to be preserved correctly.   This is priceless, One of a Kind Film Footage (the only ever taken from Johns layouts) and it is now in the best hands it could have ever ended up in....!    I am proud that this all went this way.  There were items that went with the film and it was wonderful to have been able to have made the deal and to also see to it things are preserved and shared...  All the large and medium format negatives I still have about 50+ in all... will be going to the GDLines site as well to be shared as a group of images from my small collection now. 

  I'd also like to mention...   After spooling out some of the film footage here before sending it on to Jeff.    And just using a simple magnifying glass I could see the 16mm film frames are as about as good as they can get...   Jeff and I are pretty sure they just projected the film on a screen and used a video camera to record and dub it to VHS...  and then later what Sunday River did the DVD footage... they just copied the VHS .....  This technique is of very low quality and explains the poor quality of the current DVD....  

  So now with the film found and in our hands....!    Jeff's new DVD will tell the tale..  It is our hope that many wonderful stills can now be made...  and I am hoping Jeff might be able to find a way to make copies of the movie for sale to generate some money for the site.  Anyway this is huge news in the John Allen front.  After much searching and finding some items have been thrown out as I was to late in my research and sleuthing...  It is good to have some success in the historic preservation story.   Jeff and I will have some fun new things to see soon.  
  
These items and photographs need to be found.  There is no reason not to ask people "what they plan to do with items"  A museum can be a great disposition for some things but so far, in Johns case...  it has been private ownership and the generosity of good people that are now telling Johns tale in the best way possible.  And the tale is free and of excellent copy quality on the memorial site that Jeff runs and maintains himself.   
   Museums will sometimes share photographs but they control the quality of the images copied... and they sell them they do not offer them for free.   The GDLines site is an amazing thing for this group to have access to.  I hope more photographs, some of which we all know exist, will end up being shared here.   There is no better place than Jeff's pages for anything John Allen related.  
   
    And let me also say.... for "anyone" who may have items of historic value concerning John Allen and his legacy, please realise it is so important that these items or images be shared and not kept in a box in a closet anymore.   Even if they are offered for sale, there is a chance that one or more of us in this group might be able to purchase them.   These items may finally see the light of day and help to tell John's tale.  Please contact me or Jeff and let us know what you have....  at least let us make an offer or find people who can help us and lets get John's Story documented even better.   

   Randy Decker
Great Divide Lines    



 

   

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 9:57 AM Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks to the dogged persistence and exceptional investigative skills of one Randy Decker, we have purchased from the estate of Glenn Beier the 16mm film made in 1969 (and many other photos and items, too).

The film, or parts of it, are included in the Sunday River VHS/DVD that is available. I'm pretty sure that the transfers from the film will far exceed the quality of that video.

It will arrive today at CineLab, a professional movie lab in MA. They will scan it frame-by-frame at 2K (or better) resolution, so we should get some amazing stills (like the one Tom posted), as well as HD video to the limit of the original film resolution.

I will update the group on the progress, but please be patient as reviewing and presenting this material will take time. Charlie Getz has also expressed an interest, perhaps the footage will show up in the museum at some point.

Regards,

Jeff

Keith Roger
 

What do you think they would charge to do a special scan of all the Slides that I have?
Maybe we could get some more quality that I couldn't.
***Maybe if they remove them from the frame, they can find some missing overscan! 
I scanned them to Tiff yeas ago with a high-er end (at the time) consumer scanner, (Cannon Cool-edit?)
I believe there is some more detail that can be realized in them.  
Thoughts?
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity

--
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity, owner,  9 Cielo Vista Terrace, Monterey

Warner Swarner
 

Mine will be made available to anyone doing wanting to rescan slides (though not much quality to be gained).
Gary W’s, however might squeeze a bit more resolution.
Still, have not heard a tweet from Fred on his promises to share his (few) images. 
Warner Swarner



On Dec 20, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Keith <keithtrinity@...> wrote:


What do you think they would charge to do a special scan of all the Slides that I have?
Maybe we could get some more quality that I couldn't.
***Maybe if they remove them from the frame, they can find some missing overscan! 
I scanned them to Tiff yeas ago with a high-er end (at the time) consumer scanner, (Cannon Cool-edit?)
I believe there is some more detail that can be realized in them.  
Thoughts?
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity

--
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity, owner,  9 Cielo Vista Terrace, Monterey

Michael Rozeboom
 

On 2019-12-20 6:24 p.m., Keith wrote:
What do you think they would charge to do a special scan of all the Slides that I have?
Maybe we could get some more quality that I couldn't.
***Maybe if they remove them from the frame, they can find some missing overscan! 
I scanned them to Tiff yeas ago with a high-er end (at the time) consumer scanner, (Cannon Cool-edit?)
I believe there is some more detail that can be realized in them.  
Thoughts?

Nikon offers a device, ES-1, for their DSLR cameras which holds a slide in front of the lens and allows you to photograph it.  Not exactly cheap, but a lot less than a really good film scanner would cost.  Faster too. They offered other versions which may not be available new anymore.

I would guess it is meant for 35mm slides.  Larger formats, can't answer that. You also need an appropriate lens, like the 40mm DX lens.  Other camera companies may offer a similar product.

https://en.nikon.ca/nikon-products/product/film-holders/es-1-slide-copying-adapter-for-52mm-thread.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-Overview



--




Michael Rozeboom


Team Amiga

DCC Wiki Admin

Gary Wernick
 

Hi Warner
I’ve been following the posts occasionally. If you want the original slides I took during our visit to John Allen’s layout I will send them to you for scanning and archiving.  You have the appropriate contacts with group members.  This way they can be preserved. Hope all is well with you. 
Best regards
Gary Wernick


On Dec 20, 2019, at 4:28 PM, wbswarner via Groups.Io <wbswarner@...> wrote:

Mine will be made available to anyone doing wanting to rescan slides (though not much quality to be gained).
Gary W’s, however might squeeze a bit more resolution.
Still, have not heard a tweet from Fred on his promises to share his (few) images. 
Warner Swarner



On Dec 20, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Keith <keithtrinity@...> wrote:


What do you think they would charge to do a special scan of all the Slides that I have?
Maybe we could get some more quality that I couldn't.
***Maybe if they remove them from the frame, they can find some missing overscan! 
I scanned them to Tiff yeas ago with a high-er end (at the time) consumer scanner, (Cannon Cool-edit?)
I believe there is some more detail that can be realized in them.  
Thoughts?
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity

--
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity, owner,  9 Cielo Vista Terrace, Monterey

Warner Swarner
 

Gary,
So good to hear you are still watching this group.  Very exciting news that these movies and slides have been acquired by Randy and the group has shown renewed interest in enhancing the record of JA’s modeling.  This is a great historical step to preserve these archives.  Your slides have been a tremendous resource For years.  So glad you made them available in this process.  Your photography has proven to be a significant asset.  A few of my slides from our visit have been helpful to modelers also in doing tribute layouts along the way.  Many of my old HO rolling stock are now on a tribute layout in the northwest being built by Boyd Wirkkala. So much fun to see remnants of our old Cascade Southern back on rails.  His Gorre Northern is taking shape. 
I don’t know where Fred T stands on all this.  I have corresponded with him several times.  I know he has a few slides from our visit to the G&D and he has promised several times to share them but I’ve not seen them.  Have you?   No matter the quality, any additional views would be extremely valuable and a number of members doing research would be thrilled if any of these come to light.  Maybe you could prod him if you have contact info. 
Hope you and family are all well and still on track. Take care.
Warner




On Dec 20, 2019, at 7:08 PM, Gary Wernick via Groups.Io <brownoseman@...> wrote:

Hi Warner
I’ve been following the posts occasionally. If you want the original slides I took during our visit to John Allen’s layout I will send them to you for scanning and archiving.  You have the appropriate contacts with group members.  This way they can be preserved. Hope all is well with you. 
Best regards
Gary Wernick


On Dec 20, 2019, at 4:28 PM, wbswarner via Groups.Io <wbswarner@...> wrote:

Mine will be made available to anyone doing wanting to rescan slides (though not much quality to be gained).
Gary W’s, however might squeeze a bit more resolution.
Still, have not heard a tweet from Fred on his promises to share his (few) images. 
Warner Swarner



On Dec 20, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Keith <keithtrinity@...> wrote:


What do you think they would charge to do a special scan of all the Slides that I have?
Maybe we could get some more quality that I couldn't.
***Maybe if they remove them from the frame, they can find some missing overscan! 
I scanned them to Tiff yeas ago with a high-er end (at the time) consumer scanner, (Cannon Cool-edit?)
I believe there is some more detail that can be realized in them.  
Thoughts?
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity

--
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity, owner,  9 Cielo Vista Terrace, Monterey

Randy Lee Decker
 

Gary, I have thanked Warner many times for sharing the photographs you all took on your trip to Johns place back in 71.   Please let me thank you directly as well.  You two have some of the most unique photographs of Johns place and of John himself.....!    Hats off to all of you for sharing that day you spent in Monterey. 
      Both yourself and Warner have images that have been priceless to my work and I am sure everyone who cares about John Allen's incredible work.  The candid shots of John, downstairs in the layout room, were something I thought I would never find.    I to would like to see Fred's photos, even if they are not nearly as good as the ones many of us have come to know so well shared by both of you.   Warner has tried several times to contact Fred for the group, so many times now I hate to ask Watner about it ever again.   Fred seems to be open to sending what he has along but it never happens.  But we all keep our fingers crossed.        
 
 Keith, I have some slides taken out of John's back window of 9 Cielo Vista Terrace that were in the Glenn Beier group.  I will send these along to you as they are not really related to anything this group would care about but it might be fun for the new owner of the house to see what the view was once like, as I would bet a lot of tree's obscuring that 1960's era view today.  Might be fun to see.  

Gary, for any of the scan work please contact Jeff Witt, he maintains and has designed and owns the GDLines Memorial Pages that hold all this wonderful information.,...    If your email is something I can access from these pages I will send his email along to you.  But I am sure Jeff himself or Warner will contact you about this before I can anyway.   

Warner I will check and see if I have Fred's email.  I think you may have sent it to me back when you were trying to contact him last time round...  I think he moved to NC right at that time, so I am not sure if he has new info or not now.   I will certainly be happy to give it a try.        

Randy

Randy Lee Decker
 

BTW Keith, I have an Epson V800 flat top scanner that can do even large format negatives. I took the plunge because I found one refurbished for Half retail price...  And not only do I want it so I can send Jeff excellent resolution scans of this collection of JA images but I have  a huge collection of high resolution, B&W, 35mm, negative film that I traveled and copied from all over the northeast in my younger years concerning some of my local railroad subjects of interest and I want to share them with other historians as well.  So now I finally can.   
    This scan bed is about as good as any professional scan will ever be.  After a certain point the scans can exceed the films resolution and all the extra digital quality is lost.   If I can learn how to work this scanner well enough, perhaps I can help Jeff in the future and anyone who has things to scan.  Just food for thought. My work might be priceless but I do it for free.  Then again, priceless is a subjective description. 

Randy  

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Keith,

I don't know what they charge, but maybe they can digitally clean off the "specs" on some of the slides. Also, some slides are quite dark (under exposed?), so maybe they could scan and keep the original "as is," but provide a lighten version, as well.

Based on John's photo clinic, I know that John experimented with different exposure times, particularly night shots, e.g., the ones of the GD roundhouse garden tracks.

On other slides, probably not yours … because John may have used a blue filter to white color balance the incandescent lighting, maybe they could color correct them.You may need to specify which ones need "correcting."

On the background prints from some of the slides that I used on my layout, I had to digitally remove the specs (basically one at a time) on the buildings. What a pain! I used a feature in MS Photo Gallery for this, but there's better software available.

Just some thoughts.Of course, all of this comes at a price.

FYI, I purchased some "Diamond OneTouch Video Capture VHS to DVD" software. It comes with the cables and controller that plugs into your device (Camcorder, VHS, DVD) and your PC. I want to burn some DVDs, but I also want to back them up to thumb (or solid state) drives and put them in our fireproof safe.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

 

Randy, have you told Joe F. about this?  He'd probably be interested in getting the word out but maybe y'all aren't ready for a lot of publicity yet?

Randy Lee Decker
 

 I was thinking of talking to him.   It is so important to keep items from the dumpster...  and even if people want money for some things if I can't swing it... I know so many in this group who would help and I'd be happy to see people involved in this preservation minded group get things as they will share them with the world like they should and have done so often already.   Good point Michael, I will talk to him.   

Randy 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 10:18 AM Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
Randy, have you told Joe F. about this?  He'd probably be interested in
getting the word out but maybe y'all aren't ready for a lot of publicity
yet?




Warner Swarner
 

Has anyone considered a second book or a DVD?  Is there enough non-copyrighted material to consider publication of a part 2 or sequel?  Is Fugate interested?  Not looking for profit just preservation costs. 
Warner



On Dec 22, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


 I was thinking of talking to him.   It is so important to keep items from the dumpster...  and even if people want money for some things if I can't swing it... I know so many in this group who would help and I'd be happy to see people involved in this preservation minded group get things as they will share them with the world like they should and have done so often already.   Good point Michael, I will talk to him.   

Randy 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 10:18 AM Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
Randy, have you told Joe F. about this?  He'd probably be interested in
getting the word out but maybe y'all aren't ready for a lot of publicity
yet?