Topics

[EXTERNAL] Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

Bob Friddle
 

You guys know a lot more about this than I do, but I believe I have noticed variation in color of the rocks at the same location in the different photos of the book’s. I always assumed that John’s coloring was more uniform - generally light gray, and that the color variation was due to lighting and filtering that he used. I would be interested to know the group’s opinions, perhaps especially from those who visited the layout, although it was many years ago. 
I’ve always felt that as I got into my own mountain building I would follow this light gray granite ‘baseline’ so that I could use lighting and filters if I wanted it to appear more Sandy or blueish or reddish. 

Thanks,


Bob Friddle,

Gabrielle Lines - Route of the Angels

Minneapolis


On Mar 23, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Charles Kinzer via Groups.Io <ckinzer@...> wrote:



I don’t know what it would cost to have this massaged more, but there are certainly color examples from slides that look pretty good to me.  “The book” might be the best color authority.  Such as the rocks are much more grey and you can see green foliage tufts pretty clearly in the slides.

 

If cost is an issue, may there can be a “pass the hat” request to see if it can be funded that way.

 

And the experiment done by Eugen where he sent some short clips did show a sharpening improvement.  I grabbed a frame just with “print screen” (not fancy) of “before and after” and put some slices of the original and sharpened together.  Places you can see the improvement pretty well are the two halves of the one refrigerator car, the two domes on the engine, and the rock detail just above the engine.  And the bridge of course.

 

<844FDC2B70534666B07256DB1E202D3D.jpg>

 

Here is a part of slide S0_069 from the GDlines site cropped to be an area similar to the film frame for color comparison.  Of course, everybody’s monitor may be slightly different and the original slide may have color shifted some from age, and when originally scanned there might have been some color shifting, and…and…and.  Still, it is probably reasonably representative.

 

<87D26943F4904605B757B8BD0EC7B0F3.jpg>

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 7:17 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

 

Used Cinelab in MA. A pro place, not some consumer outfit.

Here's the order form. Not sure which one they used, but the tech told me anything over 2K would be a waste.

http://www.cinelab.com/PDFS/16mm_Data_Scanning_Order_Form_2017.pdf

He said he did some basic global color correction because of the film's degraded state, but I did not go for the full restoration package.

Jeff

 

[EXTERNAL] This email originated from outside of the City of Minneapolis. Please exercise caution when opening links or attachments.

<844FDC2B70534666B07256DB1E202D3D.jpg>
<87D26943F4904605B757B8BD0EC7B0F3.jpg>

Charles Kinzer
 

Color is a very subjective thing and the color temperature of lighting and much more certainly plays a part.

 

And there really isn’t any “standard” for the color of model railroad rocks.

 

However, other things can be used as partially reliable indictors.  Consider the cropped S0_069 slide I just included.  Notice the red REA logo, the color green of that express car, the yellow of a freight car, the tone of the engines which we have seen in many magazine and book photos.  Boxcar reds and browns (although they are all over the place themselves inherently).  What looks to be Bull Line stock car is at the top left and looks reasonable to me versus other photos I have seen.  And does foliage look at least somewhat green?  Or anything else that might be used as a reference.  Does blue sky look bluish.  (And there is a little patch, I think, you can see through the arch at the top right.)  If they all seem pretty reasonable, the rest is likely reasonable.

 

Even with “The Book”, not every edition is identical.  When the most recent printing from Bob Hayden came out, I put it side by side with a Kalmbach version and flipped through them comparing every photo.  They were quite close, but one was slightly “cooler” than the other (I forget which).  I don’t think you could tell the difference unless you had them right next to each other.

 

But if the color shift of a photo is far enough out of whack, there may no longer be sufficient information in the photo to fix it with reasonable means.  I suspect it can be shifted into something reasonably nominal even if a lot of the color information is lost.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Bob Friddle
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 11:28 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

 

You guys know a lot more about this than I do, but I believe I have noticed variation in color of the rocks at the same location in the different photos of the book’s. I always assumed that John’s coloring was more uniform - generally light gray, and that the color variation was due to lighting and filtering that he used. I would be interested to know the group’s opinions, perhaps especially from those who visited the layout, although it was many years ago. 

I’ve always felt that as I got into my own mountain building I would follow this light gray granite ‘baseline’ so that I could use lighting and filters if I wanted it to appear more Sandy or blueish or reddish. 

Thanks,



Bob Friddle,

Gabrielle Lines - Route of the Angels

Minneapolis



 

Charles Kinzer
 

Well, I’m no expert at correcting color.  But I played around a little with a free program called “GIMP” that seems to have most of the usual bells and whistles.

 

Below is a frame from the original film (just copied from my screen).

 

Below is after I thrashed on it some in GIMP.  I’m not positive, but it seems that there just isn’t much of certain colors present anymore.  Plenty of red, not a lot of much else.  When you get rid of so much of the red, there isn’t a lot of color left.  The green foliage shows green a little and the yellow cars show yellow a little.  But not much.  It would be interesting to hear what a professional in this business might think is possible.  Of course, their tools, and certainly their knowledge, will be far beyond mine. 

 

 

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Charles Kinzer
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 12:15 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

 

Color is a very subjective thing and the color temperature of lighting and much more certainly plays a part.

 

And there really isn’t any “standard” for the color of model railroad rocks.

 

However, other things can be used as partially reliable indictors.  Consider the cropped S0_069 slide I just included.  Notice the red REA logo, the color green of that express car, the yellow of a freight car, the tone of the engines which we have seen in many magazine and book photos.  Boxcar reds and browns (although they are all over the place themselves inherently).  What looks to be Bull Line stock car is at the top left and looks reasonable to me versus other photos I have seen.  And does foliage look at least somewhat green?  Or anything else that might be used as a reference.  Does blue sky look bluish.  (And there is a little patch, I think, you can see through the arch at the top right.)  If they all seem pretty reasonable, the rest is likely reasonable.

 

Even with “The Book”, not every edition is identical.  When the most recent printing from Bob Hayden came out, I put it side by side with a Kalmbach version and flipped through them comparing every photo.  They were quite close, but one was slightly “cooler” than the other (I forget which).  I don’t think you could tell the difference unless you had them right next to each other.

 

But if the color shift of a photo is far enough out of whack, there may no longer be sufficient information in the photo to fix it with reasonable means.  I suspect it can be shifted into something reasonably nominal even if a lot of the color information is lost.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

Eugen Takacs
 

Hi Chuck

The only reference for the color in thsi picture are the yellow cars in the train. The whole scene is colored by the used lamps, ie everything is a bit different as in the reality.  John for his slides had enough time for lighting and exposure, what is not given for the film, therefore it will be never the same as on the static picture.

Eugen


Gesendet von Yahoo Mail für iPad

Am Montag, März 23, 2020, 20:54 schrieb Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...>:

Well, I’m no expert at correcting color.  But I played around a little with a free program called “GIMP” that seems to have most of the usual bells and whistles.

 

Below is a frame from the original film (just copied from my screen).

 

Below is after I thrashed on it some in GIMP.  I’m not positive, but it seems that there just isn’t much of certain colors present anymore.  Plenty of red, not a lot of much else.  When you get rid of so much of the red, there isn’t a lot of color left.  The green foliage shows green a little and the yellow cars show yellow a little.  But not much.  It would be interesting to hear what a professional in this business might think is possible.  Of course, their tools, and certainly their knowledge, will be far beyond mine. 

 

 

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Charles Kinzer
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 12:15 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

 

Color is a very subjective thing and the color temperature of lighting and much more certainly plays a part.

 

And there really isn’t any “standard” for the color of model railroad rocks.

 

However, other things can be used as partially reliable indictors.  Consider the cropped S0_069 slide I just included.  Notice the red REA logo, the color green of that express car, the yellow of a freight car, the tone of the engines which we have seen in many magazine and book photos.  Boxcar reds and browns (although they are all over the place themselves inherently).  What looks to be Bull Line stock car is at the top left and looks reasonable to me versus other photos I have seen.  And does foliage look at least somewhat green?  Or anything else that might be used as a reference.  Does blue sky look bluish.  (And there is a little patch, I think, you can see through the arch at the top right.)  If they all seem pretty reasonable, the rest is likely reasonable.

 

Even with “The Book”, not every edition is identical.  When the most recent printing from Bob Hayden came out, I put it side by side with a Kalmbach version and flipped through them comparing every photo.  They were quite close, but one was slightly “cooler” than the other (I forget which).  I don’t think you could tell the difference unless you had them right next to each other.

 

But if the color shift of a photo is far enough out of whack, there may no longer be sufficient information in the photo to fix it with reasonable means.  I suspect it can be shifted into something reasonably nominal even if a lot of the color information is lost.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

Charles Kinzer
 

I understand all that.  I also suspect that, especially since it was 16 mm film, that it was more likely than not done by somebody with some competence.  And also more likely than not done in John Allen’s presence.  And if some stupidly wrong color temperature lighting were used, John would have likely spoken up.

 

I suspect actually did look reasonable at one time and has failed with age.  But the reason or reasons for its appearance are moot.  It is what it is.  I’m just suggesting that if it is possible to move it to, or at least toward, the original coloring of the subject, that effort might be worthwhile.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Eugen Takacs via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 1:03 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GandD] The Glenn Beier film

 

Hi Chuck

 

The only reference for the color in thsi picture are the yellow cars in the train. The whole scene is colored by the used lamps, ie everything is a bit different as in the reality.  John for his slides had enough time for lighting and exposure, what is not given for the film, therefore it will be never the same as on the static picture.

 

Eugen


 

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

I guess I'll jump in here, too. I used IrfanView … Bright = 15, Red = -48, Green = 0 and Blue = 15 color corrections. Granted, it's not the whole video and my guess is that Abode Photoshop/Element Pro in the hand of a profession would be better. I think Jeff has picked an outstanding company. And, thank you much Jeff and Randy for all of your work on this!


--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR

Randy Lee Decker
 

I am just so glad we all now have the original to work with at all.  It is the only film ever done.  

Randy Lee Decker
 

I sent along some letters between John and Glenn concerning the making of this film. Lighting and locations were discussed as well as favorite good running engines etc.  The film was done completely by Glenn and John... Glenn has quite a long history of photography and film background and has some of his many photos in print in all their wonderful detail.  His subject of interest was "Steam Engines" and he captured the last of what there were, out west in the 1950's and in fine style.   His introduction to John Allen ended up creating a life long friendship and he fell in love with model railroading and John's layout from his first visits to John's old house beginning in the late 1940's.     

 I had high hopes that there might be some really well focused parts of this film that would show up digitally but when ya think about it 16mm film being exposed at the rate of a film camera is not ever going to yield great results, it just can't.  We are so used to well posed, crystal clear, 35MM camera photos we have been spoiled with from so many of the still's out there today.   but to have a motion picture of John's layout at all is incredible.   

 What I wonder; (more than Color variations) is if there is a program that could take a film image of an engine or a box car (such as we have here) and by using some trick of intelligent recreation take a fuzzy engine and remake it detailed by using crystal clear stills of these same engines and cars..... to give the program something to compare and work from.    I bet there is...   Affordability would be the next question.    Computer technology has come so far I bet this film could be remastered..... 

   But for now, I am pleased it is in safe hands (hands that will share it and preserve it) and not in a dumpster or sadly, kept hidden in someones closet as other treasures of John's work are.   

Randy 

Warner Swarner
 

Wonderful that you are restoring and preserving the Glenn Beier film.  
Randy, the technology is out there to practically re-create most of the G&D in 3D video.  Example: we just finished watching a NASCAR race simulation where the drivers were at computer terminals.  The details down to people in the stands and every crack or bump in the track and damage to cars was amazing (not perfect) and mind bending.  Yes the were able to start with terabyte sized files of 3D surveillance footage of the track, cars and wrecks.  It’s not a direct comparison, but Computer Generated Imagining (was science fiction) is now possible.  No, we don’t have the money support of I-racing sponsors, but gaming consoles (that look like space shuttle cockpits) are now only about several hundred (to ten thousand) bucks each.   
My thoughts (I proposed this in an email many years back, before 3D printing) are that eventually the entire G&D will be created via CG in virtual 3D by using the hundreds (thousand?) surviving images and diagrams and now I predict we will be able to “run” the G&D, perhaps from a cab view (as well as from isle views) in high def.  I predict even the inside of tunnels will be simulated.  Probablyrecreated interactions with other trains and Track crews.  If you saw the simulated 100 lap NASCAR race that included some very realistic collisions down to brake dust and rubber build up and accounted for tread wear and sun and cloud positions you would know what is possible.  It won’t be as easy as using 3D Google cameras, but the technology is here. Preserve ALL of our images as best we can on digital format.  One of our Geeky grandkids is going to get bored with killing gladiators and dragons and instead of playing D&D will play G&D.   Science fiction?  Live long and prosper.  
Anyone know anybody at I-racing, E-NASCAR, Disney or Pixar? With theme parks closed and live film sets shut down, somebody must be looking for new horizons.
We have come a long way since Pong.
Maybe, Just dreaming.
Warner
 


On Mar 24, 2020, at 9:04 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:

I sent along some letters between John and Glenn concerning the making of this film. Lighting and locations were discussed as well as favorite good running engines etc.  The film was done completely by Glenn and John... Glenn has quite a long history of photography and film background and has some of his many photos in print in all their wonderful detail.  His subject of interest was "Steam Engines" and he captured the last of what there were, out west in the 1950's and in fine style.   His introduction to John Allen ended up creating a life long friendship and he fell in love with model railroading and John's layout from his first visits to John's old house beginning in the late 1940's.     

 I had high hopes that there might be some really well focused parts of this film that would show up digitally but when ya think about it 16mm film being exposed at the rate of a film camera is not ever going to yield great results, it just can't.  We are so used to well posed, crystal clear, 35MM camera photos we have been spoiled with from so many of the still's out there today.   but to have a motion picture of John's layout at all is incredible.   

 What I wonder; (more than Color variations) is if there is a program that could take a film image of an engine or a box car (such as we have here) and by using some trick of intelligent recreation take a fuzzy engine and remake it detailed by using crystal clear stills of these same engines and cars..... to give the program something to compare and work from.    I bet there is...   Affordability would be the next question.    Computer technology has come so far I bet this film could be remastered..... 

   But for now, I am pleased it is in safe hands (hands that will share it and preserve it) and not in a dumpster or sadly, kept hidden in someones closet as other treasures of John's work are.   

Randy 

Rick Jones
 

On 3/24/2020 11:51 AM, Warner Swarner via Groups.Io wrote:
My thoughts (I proposed this in an email many years back, before 3D printing) are that eventually the entire G&D will be created via CG in virtual 3D by using the hundreds (thousand?) surviving images and diagrams and now I predict we will be able to “run” the G&D, perhaps from a cab view (as well as from isle views) in high def.  I predict even the inside of tunnels will be simulated.  Probably recreated interactions with other trains and Track crews.
This would certainly be possible with the editor in Train Simulator. Some talented people have created prototype routes using it. Though as I understand it they begin by using digitized landform data from the USGS and elsewhere to get the basic terrain shapes before laying tracks, buildings and everything else. Since there's no such data for the G&D it would mean trying to create terrain from nothing, which would be quite an achievement and well beyond my skills and knowledge.

--

Rick Jones

I signed up for an exercise class and was told to wear loose-
fitting clothing. If I HAD any loose-fitting clothing, I
wouldn't have signed up in the first place!

Randy Lee Decker
 

Hey Warner hows goes it in the Northwest?    yes the technology is amazing...no doubt..  So once again, just the fact that Jeff purchased this film and also spent good money to get it digitally copied as well as possible within a realistic budget, the images will always be available for the future to bring this film to, perhaps, a super high def look.     For now just the fact it is not gone is amazing.   

Randy     

Michael Rozeboom
 

With AI technology, it would be possible to clean up the film, increase the resolution and restore it to a much better condition than it was originally.

It is only a matter of time where it could be done at home with a suitable graphics card to handle all the math required.

On 2020-03-24 12:51 p.m., Warner Swarner via Groups.Io wrote:
Wonderful that you are restoring and preserving the Glenn Beier film.  
Randy, the technology is out there to practically re-create most of the G&D in 3D video.  Example: we just finished watching a NASCAR race simulation where the drivers were at computer terminals.  The details down to people in the stands and every crack or bump in the track and damage to cars was amazing (not perfect) and mind bending.  Yes the were able to start with terabyte sized files of 3D surveillance footage of the track, cars and wrecks.  It’s not a direct comparison, but Computer Generated Imagining (was science fiction) is now possible.  No, we don’t have the money support of I-racing sponsors, but gaming consoles (that look like space shuttle cockpits) are now only about several hundred (to ten thousand) bucks each.   
My thoughts (I proposed this in an email many years back, before 3D printing) are that eventually the entire G&D will be created via CG in virtual 3D by using the hundreds (thousand?) surviving images and diagrams and now I predict we will be able to “run” the G&D, perhaps from a cab view (as well as from isle views) in high def.  I predict even the inside of tunnels will be simulated.  Probablyrecreated interactions with other trains and Track crews.  If you saw the simulated 100 lap NASCAR race that included some very realistic collisions down to brake dust and rubber build up and accounted for tread wear and sun and cloud positions you would know what is possible.  It won’t be as easy as using 3D Google cameras, but the technology is here. Preserve ALL of our images as best we can on digital format.  One of our Geeky grandkids is going to get bored with killing gladiators and dragons and instead of playing D&D will play G&D.   Science fiction?  Live long and prosper.  
Anyone know anybody at I-racing, E-NASCAR, Disney or Pixar? With theme parks closed and live film sets shut down, somebody must be looking for new horizons.
We have come a long way since Pong.
Maybe, Just dreaming.
Warner
 


On Mar 24, 2020, at 9:04 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:

I sent along some letters between John and Glenn concerning the making of this film. Lighting and locations were discussed as well as favorite good running engines etc.  The film was done completely by Glenn and John... Glenn has quite a long history of photography and film background and has some of his many photos in print in all their wonderful detail.  His subject of interest was "Steam Engines" and he captured the last of what there were, out west in the 1950's and in fine style.   His introduction to John Allen ended up creating a life long friendship and he fell in love with model railroading and John's layout from his first visits to John's old house beginning in the late 1940's.     

 I had high hopes that there might be some really well focused parts of this film that would show up digitally but when ya think about it 16mm film being exposed at the rate of a film camera is not ever going to yield great results, it just can't.  We are so used to well posed, crystal clear, 35MM camera photos we have been spoiled with from so many of the still's out there today.   but to have a motion picture of John's layout at all is incredible.   

 What I wonder; (more than Color variations) is if there is a program that could take a film image of an engine or a box car (such as we have here) and by using some trick of intelligent recreation take a fuzzy engine and remake it detailed by using crystal clear stills of these same engines and cars..... to give the program something to compare and work from.    I bet there is...   Affordability would be the next question.    Computer technology has come so far I bet this film could be remastered..... 

   But for now, I am pleased it is in safe hands (hands that will share it and preserve it) and not in a dumpster or sadly, kept hidden in someones closet as other treasures of John's work are.   

Randy 


--




Michael Rozeboom


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