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#60


Dale Sproule
 

Is there anyone with modelling information on #60 Gas Electric particularily sideframe info


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 
Edited

Dale I am not sure if the side frames have a specific name..?  I would suppose they might,   but they are not anything odd or terribly special, just the typical powered truck.  Back in the day when John built his, I would make a guess that he would have used a Bowser truck and the cast metal side frames that came with them.  Brill or St Louis types were the main choices...   I am trying to see if I can make out one of those to types in the photo's...  ? anyone else see them well enough?  
 
Today there are better units available of either style.. can motors or corless and easier to hide and much quieter... 
 
Randy  

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 5:50 PM Dale Sproule <sproules@...> wrote:
Is there anyone with modelling information on #60 Gas Electric particularily sideframe info

 

 


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

BTW one of your best photo's is #1 in "Files" ... doodlebug pics..   In case you did not know they were there.... 
 
  Ya know it has the dual springs with the center leaf spring... and what I think are forward and rear  brake shoes...?  It is not a St Louis truck.  Seems more like Brill but I can't find a good photo to verify this. 

   Every company had frames baldwin had some that were used on gas electrics...... they are all similar to some degree..... but for a few real odd contraptions like the McKeen cars with a geared transmissions. 

I'll look round... I bet one of these guy's can nail it right away..  I thought it would be easier than this to identify.   My bad.   

Randy   


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

OK this took a while.... but I found these on ebay Dale. 
     I never would have guessed it, but a fellow model railroader in another group was helpful in suggesting I check the diesel engine side frames as well. 
   Well these are what appear to be the Power truck frames.  These are Athearn Alco Diesel side frames... really common and quite cheap.    The trailing truck seems to be a standard Labell and Bowser truck side frame.  Anyway I hope this helps ya.    


Dale Sproule
 

Thankyou so very much, Dale

 

From: GandD@groups.io [mailto:GandD@groups.io] On Behalf Of Randy Lee Decker
Sent: July 14, 2019 5:02 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] #60

 

OK this took a while.... but I found these on ebay Dale. 
     I never would have guessed it, but a fellow model railroader in another group was helpful in suggesting I check the diesel engine side frames as well. 
   Well these are what appear to be the Power truck frames.  These are Athearn Alco Diesel side frames... really common and quite cheap.    The trailing truck seems to be a standard Labell and Bowser truck side frame.  Anyway I hope this helps ya.    


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Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

I find the hilarity of John here..   He must have hoped some of the interurban purists would notice this FOPA .  No one would have used a Diesel Road Engine Truck on an light weight Gas Car or Interurban trolley of any kind...  I thought they looked familiar under there ... now I know why.   But make no mistake about it, these trucks could not be more WRONG than ALCO Road Diesel Side Frames.  I think this is another funny John Allen story and is being missed.   Worthy of note for sure.. a discovery has been unveiled, and I find it chuckle worthy for sure now that I think back at how many things we will not know about John and his humor.

For what it's worth....I think we just found another one right here.     


Randy  

  


Dale Sproule
 

Thankyou, Dale

 

From: GandD@groups.io [mailto:GandD@groups.io] On Behalf Of Randy Lee Decker
Sent: July 20, 2019 11:41 AM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: Re: [GandD] #60

 

I find the hilarity of John here..   He must have hoped some of the interurban purists would notice this FOPA .  No one would have used a Diesel Road Engine Truck on an light weight Gas Car or Interurban trolley of any kind...  I thought they looked familiar under there ... now I know why.   But make no mistake about it, these trucks could not be more WRONG than ALCO Road Diesel Side Frames.  I think this is another funny John Allen story and is being missed.   Worthy of note for sure.. a discovery has been unveiled, and I find it chuckle worthy for sure now that I think back at how many things we will not know about John and his humor.

For what it's worth....I think we just found another one right here.     


Randy  

  


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Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

#60 was running on layout #2, so that was one of his earliest powered models. He probably didn't have access to something more prototypical … and maybe he just didn't care. Or, maybe the more prototypical unit ran like crap.

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Well then...  That is another way to see it.     

 I won't even check to see when Bowser offered their geared trucks nor all the brass imports of traction cars of every type in the 50's.  Weighing that with the fact that John actually lived during the time of trolleys and interurban service and had great knowledge of railroads, railroad operations and access to every expert of the day.    And I just don't believe "he didn't care" 
  
but you could be right....  

    A man as driven to build his own gas car from wood and paint and letter it back in the day.   Well it seems logical that he  would take the time to affix correct sideframs if he wanted.   Varney side frames came off their diesel trucks.  Sideframe can be attached to any power truck once he found one that ran good..  

But you could be right......... 
  
  I would have thought doing it purposely was a better way to think of John... his humor would totally be right along those lines.  So if it's OK I'll go ahead and think of the diesel trucks under #60 as his sense of humor...  It sounds better than "he did not care" or that he used anything just to make it run.    
Who would really ever know?   One scenario just seems better than another for me as a fan of his incredible work.

But you could be right.........        

Randy 


On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 3:42 PM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
#60 was running on layout #2, so that was one of his earliest powered models. He probably didn't have access to something more prototypical … and maybe he just didn't care. Or, maybe the more prototypical unit ran like crap.

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

FWIW, I don't really believe "that he just didn't care." I think he cared about everything and could offer a good explanation for everything he did … except maybe trying to "wean his car off gasoline," as Findley once remarked. Ha!

--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Yep,  that's why looking at the fact that Diesel Truck side frames just are"wrong" I swear he did this for fun.  it really is pretty funny... 

  Personally I think they look absolutely GREAT under there....  but anyone who is a a traction railroad guy would tell you (and they have) this is not done.  The real car companies never did this.   
 So I just looked what I know of he facts and tried to figure out this contradiction.... and when you add in John... it is that sense of humor and his enjoyment of doing things to get a rise out of someone that make me believe he did this purposely.   

I did not know of the comment by Findley...  That's a keeper..   those two were a pair..  Jim had the honor of spending more time in that room than anyone else..  I was so glad to see one of his talks recorded and good enough that it is fun to watch and listen to.  I could sit and watch twenty more just like it.      

If he did this to be funny....  it really is....  any other scenario does not fit John's knowledge, or determination   

Randy


Murphy P
 

GD #60 is perfect!

 

John said the GD had a lot of second hand equipment, so anything could be possible, just like this real life photo attached to this message with what most would consider a load that would never happen, let alone in 2019 on a mountain railroad in Utah.

 

An Alco diesel truck might be the ideal truck for a railroad such as the Gorre & Daphetid for several reasons.

 

Having worked on train crews operating first generation diesels and heritage steam in mountains such mountains as the Cascades or Rockies, I can tell you lighter trucks can climb the rails on tight mountain curves, while on a grade and derail. Thus John using an Alco diesel truck would give the #60 more track adhesion, which is very important in snow conditions or heavy rains condition. Also having the heavy Alco truck would give a stronger core gearing system for the drive system, which would mean more tractive effort on mountain grades when compared to the standard interurban design and less wheel slippage.

 

The only disadvantage would be running on the flat track as the heavy Alco truck would be less efficient for fuel consumption compared to a lighter weight interurban truck.

 

Much like the GD #60, the Great Northern electric  GN 5011 Class Y-1a was never intended to be built, but after descending off a bridge into a river, the Great Northern electric  GN 5011 Class Y-1 wreck was rebuilt into an entirely new class: Y-1a and was even given EMD F-unit cabs. Y-1 electrics all had box cabs, yet one locomotive was streamlined EMD F-unit cabs and was something the original Alco builder never intended for the Y-1, but it happened.

 

For the Gorre & Daphetid, there could have been an Alco wreck, which would enable the GD to get the trucks for a great deal. With the Depression and the advent of intercity busses, a lot of interurban went to scrap in the 1930's. So the GD might have purchased an old interurban for a steal or at scrap value that had worn-out trucks and by adding Alco trucks turned a destitute interurban into a mountain climbing beast! John was so proud of the GD #60 that it was used to promote a RMC event over several issues and a model railroad convention as I recal.

 

A real Alco that I am helping restore with ORHF, does not have true Alco trucks as ORHF Nickel Plate Road #190 Alco PA-1, formerly of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe #62 to Delaware & Hudson #18, 1967, rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen, 1975 to Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico and then purchased by Doyle McCormack  2000 then painted Nickel Plate Road #190 had a considerable amount of parts stolen off the engine by illegal scarpers while the Alco was in Mexico.  Bandit scarpers took large sections of the trucks and the several ton prime mover engine off the Alco. Only recently was Doyle able to acquire an ALCO 251 prime mover, which was successfully started for the first time in 2013. Thus the ORHF #190 is like the GD #60 in that both are a custom configuration of parts to make a working piece of railroad equipment.

 

Helping with the Ogden, Utah, joint with the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society for the 150th anniversary of the Golden Spike for the first transcontinental railroad May 10, 2019, I witnessed this flatcar load on the Heber Valley Railroad on May 11 reminded me of the Gorre & Daphetid.  Heber Valley Railroad much like the GD is a mountain railroad and it run by a large lake that makes a ride on this railroad a true treat. The Heber Valley Railroad, like the GD takes second hand railroad equipment and uses it to fit the needs of the railroad, which can result in custom creations not unlike we see in the photos of the GD. In this flatcar load photo on the Heber Valley Railroad one can see the hood and roof sections of first generation diesels sharing the deck of a flatcar with a steam engine cab, which most people would say you could never see in real life, let alone in 2019!

 

I love all the posting from the Gorre & Daphetid and thank you to everyone who posts here!


On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:30 PM Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:
Yep,  that's why looking at the fact that Diesel Truck side frames just are"wrong" I swear he did this for fun.  it really is pretty funny... 

  Personally I think they look absolutely GREAT under there....  but anyone who is a a traction railroad guy would tell you (and they have) this is not done.  The real car companies never did this.   
 So I just looked what I know of he facts and tried to figure out this contradiction.... and when you add in John... it is that sense of humor and his enjoyment of doing things to get a rise out of someone that make me believe he did this purposely.   

I did not know of the comment by Findley...  That's a keeper..   those two were a pair..  Jim had the honor of spending more time in that room than anyone else..  I was so glad to see one of his talks recorded and good enough that it is fun to watch and listen to.  I could sit and watch twenty more just like it.      

If he did this to be funny....  it really is....  any other scenario does not fit John's knowledge, or determination   

Randy


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Well only a few of problems with the whole scenario it that I can see....  And yes it is fun to talk about this stuff...  Thanks for posting.. you've got some big stuff there... and lots of WORK....  Wow.. a real railroad..  

#1 John Hated Diesels...  Ya have to know the man.   And there is this sense of humor he had in playing tricks on his model railroading buddies... something hidden, as subtle as this, would fit perfectly with Johns sense of humor and gamesmanship displayed on many things on his line.   I am sure he hoped someone would "call him out on it"..   Today,  I wonder if anyone ever did?   

#2 If there was an actual example in the real world where a railroad did this and ya got a better point of view for a hypothetical conversation like this.  But it just did not happen... and for technical reasons ya just can't ignore...  

#3 Road Diesel Trucks had not only larger components and were built heavier so carry a much heavier engine but they also had far larger electric motors, In fact 2 on trucks like those old Alcos.    I am not well versed in how HP ratings for these engines were determined but I know it was not just by the size or HP of the diesel power plants...  It was derived from a few factors along with the tractive effort these could put out namely the size of the electric motors ...  And these motors were BIG...   So my point here is a small gasoline engine powered car only had limited space for a motor and electrical generator and only enough HP back in those days to turn enough juice to run much smaller electric motors....  I am talking motors or perhaps even One Motor 1/10th the size of those ALCO's or less. 
      There is a reason a diesel engine is long and all access panels...it needs to be built as tall and as long as the engine and the generator it has to house under the coverings and the Trucks are rated to match the power plants.. The larger the diesel engine and generator the longer it can be built and the more motors and larger trucks it can support. and so on...    That's about the end of my Diesel Engine knowledge.... but it makes sense.    

#4 Also trolleys with very small electric motors could travel up 6% grades and did so in many cities... it was not because they had HEAVY TRUCKS its was because they were very lightweight.   The steepest grade on an electric railroad was not held in San Francisco...   It was right here on my little Railroad line the Fonda Johnstown and Gloversville and we had a 6%+ grade in Amsterdam NY that was a true test of any electric car.   

Johns little Gas Electric car ....(IMHO) was purposely built with a diesel power truck side frame for his own sense of humor...  I know he knew better, I know he knew many traction purists who must have visited this place did as well.  He was friends or knew and rubbed elbows with everyone who was anyone in the hobby.
    I wish I got back into model railroading earlier  I would have contacted Dave Cooper before he passed and would have had this conversation with him just to see what he had to say about this.   For the rest of us, it is all just a guess now...  But I still think knowing John at all, that this was his joke on the interurban purists and I wonder if any of them ever noticed ro said anything....?  LOL  if they came and looked around I bet he'd fire up the gas car just to see if they even noticed....  He have to admit it if they did and have a laugh and make friends in this way if they caught him.  He'd have to give them credit for catching him....   These are the types of days I can Imagine John had with the guy's who shared his hobby.    
Hell it's funny now.    It must have been funny to John back then..   Fun to hash this all out as well.  Thanks for the note Murphy.... 

Randy      

     


Jeffrey L Witt
 

Jim Findley was expert at spinning humerous yarns.

The car anecdote is from the last issue of the RMC series.

http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#RMC_1981_Oct

Jim Fidley's musings are on pages 1 and 3 of 3.

Jim's article in the NMRA Bulletin regales us with shenanigans at NMRA convention involving JA:
http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#NMRA_1968_Oct 

A funny article by Jim mentioning John:
http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#MR_1967_Jun 


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Ahhhh theres the Car Story or at least one of them....  "I think he was trying to wean the thing off gas"     !!!
   These stories from Jim really help bring John to life or at least give us a good idea of the force he was to recon with.   
 
"You kept right on talking while I interrupted"  !     Ohhh my god that might be the funniest utterance of honest astonishment ever. 

I plan to go through and hit every single link and page in that fantastic site one day soon Jeff.   
Right now I am so totally burned in trying to research every inch of the areas I am working I do not have the time.   
As it is I jump from seat to seat in the shop and am letting some bridge gluing set up a bit more before jumping right back in that chair.

This was fun.   John was lucky to have had Jim Findley as a friend.         I find it heartwarming that a nice little write up I mentioned almost the exact same respect for John as one of the "Great Unwashed" as he raised the bar for us all and introduced me to super detailing and severe weathering as a kid.   The guy was a true character and a force of nature within this hobby like no one else... 

Thanks for this Jeff...  I really need to read all of those links....  I will...  right now the glue has set.   

Randy


Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Thanks, Jeff … I hadn't read those last two articles.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR