Topics

G&D Map Paged 6-7 in Book


Bruce Wilson
 

This image appeared in March 1963 Model Railroader article “Concept and Planning of the Gorre & Daphetid”.  This would suggest it was done in-house by an MR staff illustrator to illustrate the article.

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, ON


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

I'd agree...  but this image is not the same as the hand drawn Conceptual drawing in the book...   The origin of the one does not share the origin of the other. 
   I would say this magazine print was done using Johns drawing.      They did a nice job though..   

Randy 


Russell Courtenay
 

This is one I haven’t seen, it was published a year before I was born so that is understandable I guess! Thanks!

Russell Courtenay
July is national what month?

On Jul 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Bruce Wilson <wilsonbrucea@...> wrote:

This image appeared in March 1963 Model Railroader article “Concept and Planning of the Gorre & Daphetid”.  This would suggest it was done in-house by an MR staff illustrator to illustrate the article.

Bruce Wilson
Barrie, ON
<MR-19630300-031-300_20.jpg>


Russell Courtenay
 

Good to hear there is some possible progress Randy, your tenacity will be rewarded with results or bony fingers (sorry, quoting a silly old song)...

Russell Courtenay
July is national what month?

On Jul 25, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:

In fact it seems as if they just took a photo of Johns darwin and then colored it and cleaned up a few things.   No one from MR would have been allowed to just create this drawing on paper, John did the original drawing.  He was an artists and no one else would have understood his concept or had this in their head like John did.   I find it tough to decipher and it takes me time to figure it out even today...  lol....  Yet  It is an excellent seamless image..  .   
  
   There's some more communications I am working on concerning many of these things.  Some of my previous notes are opening doors as I had hoped.  Seems that some people do respond well when they are shocked into realising a long standing mistake and have time to rethink things.   There is hope for the world. 


Randy 

     


Donald Robichaud
 

Ok Guys, time for my 2 cents,
In looking at the drawing on and off for years... and paralysis of analysis... focus on the lettering and drawing pencil strokes(page 6-7). I've noticed that they are so incredibly similar to the plans on page 40, 47 and 61. Maybe the handwriting is right in front of us.
Donald Robichaud


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Yes indeed      
John was quite an artist...  and from what I am learning there are some other wonderful drawings/sketches that did not make it to "the book" but do exist.  
  We can all only guess at how many things may have been lost to the fire that were not out of the home at that time, and in Andrews possession, to be used by Linn Westcott who picked them up later.

Randy 

    

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 3:32 PM Donald Robichaud <djrobi61@...> wrote:
Ok Guys, time for my 2 cents,
In looking at the drawing on and off for years... and paralysis of analysis... focus on the lettering and drawing pencil strokes(page 6-7). I've noticed that they are so incredibly similar to the plans on page 40, 47 and 61. Maybe the handwriting is right in front of us.
Donald Robichaud


Jeffrey L Witt
 

Comparing the two, it is clearly the same source drawing, with typeface replacing the hand-lettering. You can see the re-touching.

How this was done with the technology of the times is beyond me.

The print quality in 1963 MRs was not the best; any scanning above 300 DPI is fruitless. Even then, processing is required to remove the "screening" (whatever the process is called, the use of dots of various sizes to reproduce photographs) and re-create a photo-like image. Which I have done to all my scans. The original TIFs look horrible on computer screens.

http://gdlines.info/MR-19630300-031-300_20.jpg 

The whole article, well worth reading:
http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#MR_1963_Mar 

Jeff


David Woodrell
 

Hmmmmmmm…...I wonder why "Corsa" is "Cooper" in the '63 issue?  I'd guess that would indicate that someone else other than John worked on the published map?  Maybe "sprucing up" the coloration and substituting type print for handwritten town names (why that was done is anybody's guess - the handwritten version seems perfectly readable to me)?  And, I would guess that JA never got to proofread the article map or he would have caught that mistake.  Another example of "Lynn's Archives" at work?

Dave


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

     from yesterday...    "In fact it seems as if they just took a photo of Johns drawing and then colored it and cleaned up a few things" 

As for "Cooper"
    I don't think anyone would have made this deliberate of a "mistake"  or made this significant a "change" unknowingly or maliciously.    Linn and others were notorious for text changes and I suppose some significant "condensing" to get articles to fit in X amount of space.     The disagreements between authors and artists and their publishers has a long standing history.  It is tradition in the business I suppose.   
     Linn and John were friends... so the rubs were real but seemed to be dealt with with total and complete sense of humor and is obvious in stories and in Johns signage that "digs at" and honors Linn at the same time. 

I think Dave Cooper was there building the electric line in 63...    I would not know every connection but these guy's all know each other back then.  I have a suspicion knowing the humor that was forced on each other by way of pranks this would be a great prank on John as I can almost see Dave Cooper suggesting that John name  a city or settlement after him after all the work he was doing to be funny.    And the guy's went with it.   

Just a theory, but then again....; when you add in the known humor they shared and the comradery built up from of Johns many dealings with Linn and MR and the guy's who worked there...  It is not a big leap.   

Two Cents... that's all I'd charge for that one.       

Randy    
 


Bill P
 

Randy - I posted this a while back.

From My G&D Files

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GandD/conversations/messages/13861

Captain David L. Cooper, U.S. Navy, ret. passed away January 17, 2013
Dave built the overhead Catenary for the Cooper Electric trolley line, and also gifted John with the "red train", consisting of a Bowser NYC Pacific and Athearn streamlined cars.

 

All for now.  Bill P. (bcd9 )  ∑:=)


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Jeff,  this is very interesting.  I see the name Cooper is on page 30 and again on 33....  It seems what we all call West Divide .. because of the "West Divide Tem and Transfer Building"  is actually called Cooper.  Am I wrong. ?    It is clearly show as "COOPER" on the page map on page 33. 
   The conceptual drawings can get tricky as (I think) the high bridge lope is considered part of Great Divide..  or West Divide.. and the lower tracks are drawn in as Port. 

Randy     


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Interesting ..  Cooper (CO) is listed as a station stop on the schematics of the control panels.   This is great info Jeff.   I wonder why John never pout Daves name on anything visible in the scene....     I'd like to call this area Cooper if this is what it should be..  But perhaps John had not seen Dave in many years by the time he got back to finishing this spot..   ?? 

 All we can do is wonder, unless someone who was there or spoke with John and has a memory or perhaps a photo they can share....?     

         
 And look at those fantastic early photos...   Port station is not there yet, all kinds of gaps on the walls.    My photos should look very much like this by January 1st. 
  
Johns operations racks to hold the car card system are clearly visible next to the control panels in this article.   Don Mitchell's control panel that he mentioned this week, is there right at Port and where the Ferry will eventually sit. 

These conversations are HOW information is disseminated..  The directions these threads can head off in, can and often do bring new light to questions we did not even know were questions before the thread began.     Please if you have anything to share if it is related to this topic jump in this is why this site is here.

Don Mitchell and some of the guys who knew John and knew the G&D still come here are generous and knowledgeable and share what they have to help bring Johns story to light for those of us who still care.   You won't find discussions like this anywhere else. 

I am thrilled to find out what I thought was West Divide.. is actually Cooper..     This could answer my log standing question;  why did John never name anything for Dave Cooper..?    Well this seems it could be the answer.   Why there was no sign is odd...  but I will remedy it if there is enough consensus in this group. 

I'd like to hear Dons thoughts in this or any of the other guys from that day. 

Randy      


 
 
  

    


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

So is there any thoughts on West Divide or Cooper...?   The map on page 33 could just name the the Cooper Electric Line and not be an indication of the section of GD.  we all know it as Wes Divide and it is clearly labeled that on the building looming overhead.    

I have just never found any signage for Dave Cooper.   The little Cars are not lettered for the Cooper electric are they?  I do not remember ever seeing this..? 


Randy


Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 


On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


David
 

Randy-

You could have a small billboard with "Take the Cooper trolley line to downtown" or something like that placed by the tracks.  That would be an easy way to give some homage to Dave Cooper.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 8:43:36 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Yes sir, most likely will do something like that.
      I was wondering if anyone knows if John ever printed "cooper" on anything that might be just out of site in the photos.    I am casting plaster and back and forth.. Have not sat and checked to see but I wonder WHAT the lettering is on the trolley cars.

Randy

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 2:38 PM hi61izq via Groups.Io <hi61izq=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Randy-

You could have a small billboard with "Take the Cooper trolley line to downtown" or something like that placed by the tracks.  That would be an easy way to give some homage to Dave Cooper.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 8:43:36 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Murphy P
 

On the first map from MR, are saying the area labeled "city area" with the area the streetcar makes a loop around is Cooper or are you saying the entire area from the Purina building to Railroad Ave is Cooper? As I recall there are 2-4 buildings, depending when you view GD pictures that have West Divide in the name of companies above Austin St station. So if you went from Austin St to RR Ave for the Cooper area there are no building or company names to conflict with the name of the area being Cooper. Thanks for your time

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 12:19 PM Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:
Yes sir, most likely will do something like that.
      I was wondering if anyone knows if John ever printed "cooper" on anything that might be just out of site in the photos.    I am casting plaster and back and forth.. Have not sat and checked to see but I wonder WHAT the lettering is on the trolley cars.

Randy

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 2:38 PM hi61izq via Groups.Io <hi61izq=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Randy-

You could have a small billboard with "Take the Cooper trolley line to downtown" or something like that placed by the tracks.  That would be an easy way to give some homage to Dave Cooper.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 8:43:36 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...>
 

Well we know the Electric Line was the "Cooper Electric"  named after the man who built it for John back in the early 1960's.  Dave Cooper and John had become fast friends and Dave was a bit of an electrical genius.  I am sure he helped hone Johns wiring skills while he was there.  So it appears the maps during that period in print had the word "cooper" all over them and even on the printed version of Johns expanded conceptual drawing.  Only place names should have been on that, and the word "cooper" is not on Johns drawing so it does not belong there. 

I wondered (but did not get any other input) if John had intended to name the entire area "Cooper" at one time back then....?    As the many maps from the early sixties seem to indicate....   But it was just a question....  and so far the only thing we know is the Electric Line was called "Cooper Electric"  But other than a "Chets Meat Pies" sign on one of the cars it does not seem John ever letter the trolley's and that part of the City was called West Divide....       

Just want to do it right. The evidence got a little contradictory...  But the conclusion, to my question (having little input other than my own) is West Divide is the "best" evidence of name.  and I will simply letter any of my trolleys for Dave Cooper when I get that far.    

Randy   

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:59 AM Murphy P <murphy23p@...> wrote:
On the first map from MR, are saying the area labeled "city area" with the area the streetcar makes a loop around is Cooper or are you saying the entire area from the Purina building to Railroad Ave is Cooper? As I recall there are 2-4 buildings, depending when you view GD pictures that have West Divide in the name of companies above Austin St station. So if you went from Austin St to RR Ave for the Cooper area there are no building or company names to conflict with the name of the area being Cooper. Thanks for your time

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 12:19 PM Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:
Yes sir, most likely will do something like that.
      I was wondering if anyone knows if John ever printed "cooper" on anything that might be just out of site in the photos.    I am casting plaster and back and forth.. Have not sat and checked to see but I wonder WHAT the lettering is on the trolley cars.

Randy

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 2:38 PM hi61izq via Groups.Io <hi61izq=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Randy-

You could have a small billboard with "Take the Cooper trolley line to downtown" or something like that placed by the tracks.  That would be an easy way to give some homage to Dave Cooper.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 8:43:36 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


David
 

Randy,

Doesn't Dave Cooper have a brother Claude from Cleveland that is a kleptomaniac who copped some clean copper clappers from the closet of Clara Clifford?

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 6:15:50 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


Well we know the Electric Line was the "Cooper Electric"  named after the man who built it for John back in the early 1960's.  Dave Cooper and John had become fast friends and Dave was a bit of an electrical genius.  I am sure he helped hone Johns wiring skills while he was there.  So it appears the maps during that period in print had the word "cooper" all over them and even on the printed version of Johns expanded conceptual drawing.  Only place names should have been on that, and the word "cooper" is not on Johns drawing so it does not belong there. 

I wondered (but did not get any other input) if John had intended to name the entire area "Cooper" at one time back then....?    As the many maps from the early sixties seem to indicate....   But it was just a question....  and so far the only thing we know is the Electric Line was called "Cooper Electric"  But other than a "Chets Meat Pies" sign on one of the cars it does not seem John ever letter the trolley's and that part of the City was called West Divide....       

Just want to do it right. The evidence got a little contradictory...  But the conclusion, to my question (having little input other than my own) is West Divide is the "best" evidence of name.  and I will simply letter any of my trolleys for Dave Cooper when I get that far.    

Randy   

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:59 AM Murphy P <murphy23p@...> wrote:
On the first map from MR, are saying the area labeled "city area" with the area the streetcar makes a loop around is Cooper or are you saying the entire area from the Purina building to Railroad Ave is Cooper? As I recall there are 2-4 buildings, depending when you view GD pictures that have West Divide in the name of companies above Austin St station. So if you went from Austin St to RR Ave for the Cooper area there are no building or company names to conflict with the name of the area being Cooper. Thanks for your time

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 12:19 PM Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:
Yes sir, most likely will do something like that.
      I was wondering if anyone knows if John ever printed "cooper" on anything that might be just out of site in the photos.    I am casting plaster and back and forth.. Have not sat and checked to see but I wonder WHAT the lettering is on the trolley cars.

Randy

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 2:38 PM hi61izq via Groups.Io <hi61izq=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Randy-

You could have a small billboard with "Take the Cooper trolley line to downtown" or something like that placed by the tracks.  That would be an easy way to give some homage to Dave Cooper.

David (Dry Gulch & Western)

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 8:43:36 AM PDT, Randy Lee Decker <randyleedecker@...> wrote:


It is in the MR article Jeff posted earlier just above Tom...      My point is I want to have Dave Coopers Name where it can be seen on my layout.  
  So I think I will letter the cars up...     I haven't had time to even see if John ever did this..  I don't remember seeing the name...    Wish I could fit a little station building down by port the trolleys could drive right through and under... and have "COOPER ELECTRIC LINES" right in print.  But I just can't quite get away with that big of a change...  

The Maps from that era.. all have "Cooper" printed on them.   I thought perhaps this was the name of the area we all call West Divide.. but I think it was a bit of a mistake as once COOPER ended up in print it just was replicated for a time and was only supposed to denote the Electric RR.  

Randy

 

Randy 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR) <PR-Line@...> wrote:
I don't see a map on page 33 of the Book.
--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR