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Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

David Thomas
 

Hi Keith
That's interesting. Do you have any idea whether this was drawn before John built the very first G&D or whether it was an early plan for its extension. I had an idea that his new interest in 3ft gauge railways had an effect on his planning from the first front locomotive depot extension of the original layout, so  I wonder whether this was an early idea for extending it before that interest developed. .

In his article in the March 1948 Model Railway News John does say that "The GD line is far from complete, as over a third of the area is not yet landscaped. Later this area will contain a turntable, engine house and facilities for servicing locomotives"  so he was clearly stlll working to his original plan. After listing the rolling stock and giving some technical information about electrics (standard N.M.R.A. 12V D.C.) track etc.and that the layout is portable he goes on to say "I am fortunate in now having a great deal more space available than when I planned and started this road, so a larger, more modern railroad is being planned which this one will connect on to, making this a true "branch line".

What we don't know is when he actually wrote the notes accompanying his photos but the editorial for that edition does say "In this issue will be found some very striking photographs recently sent us by Mr. John Allen, of Monterey, California, U.S.A" so I don't think the editor, John Maskelyne, sat on them for very long so we're probably looking at late 1947 or very early 1948. After complimenting John Allen's scenic effects "we very seldom see anything of this kind even attempted on English layouts" (though that was about to change largely following the work of John Ahern) he ends by adding that "his original photographic prints are of the brilliant, lustrous quality which is the anser to a block-makers prayer."


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Keith Roger Beard Trinity
 

Has anyone looked at this track-plan closely?
I took it, zoomed in, and "skewed" it straight in the 2nd picture;
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/GD_Galleries/NEW_SCANS/additionalBW/slides/planhires.html
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/GD_Goodies/NEW_SCANS/additionalBW/planfromveryearly.jpg 
--
Keith Roger-Beard Trinity, owner,  9 Cielo Vista Terrace, Monterey


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

David Thomas
 

Hi Jeff
I only scanned the photos (and the front cover) but at a fairly hi res. then reduced it.
The track plan he supplied to Model Railway News (which they may have redrawn as a black on white line drawing for clarity) looks to have been slightly earlier than this better known version

It has one fewer spurs off the turntable and doesn't indicate a future extension from Daphetid though he does mention that in the text. This version is also more detailed so may have been redrawn when John Allen had already scenicced part of it.

The turntable, along with the engine house, was always on his first plan so I assume, and the book seems to confirrm this, that he didn't finally decide to make that area into an industrial zone instead until he'd drawn up the plan for the first extension with the shed and the first spur of the 3ft gauge D.G. & H  in front of the original baseboard. That's the version that appeared in Meandering About the GD Line in the Jan and Feb 1950 HO Monthly though some of the photos illustrating that article are of the layout before that extension. There was a later selection of photos, but no further article by John, in the September 1948 Model Railway News,  Old G&D Engine no 8 and Her Home that does seem to show the engine house on the front extension though with no sign of the turntable and with photos taken from both sides I suspect it was actually a staged diorama placed in front of the layout for one shot. It's also possible that these photos were sent with those used to illustrate John's March 1948 article and simply held over by MRN's editor. There is no article about the shed  

In his March 1948 MRN article John talks about the oriignal 3ft 7ins x 6ft 8ins  original layout as being portable. That would have been compromised by the addition of the extra section but he was already working on the room in order to incorporate it into a larger permanent layout. What isn't clear is whether he originally intended to make the original board removable as a portable stand-alone layout. It only had one connection to the engine shed board pus whatever connections there would have been at Daphetid so that would have been entirely feasible. However,  he also adopted the very sensible policy of ensuring that as he extended the layout he still always had a working railways to operate.

In any case, looking at the plan of the first large G&D and photos of it in the book that original layout seems to have thoroughly absorbed into the larger network fairly rapidly. though it's still very apparent as a piece in the final layout.


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Jeffrey L Witt
 

Don't think so...you can check here for the full article:

http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#RM_1968_Sep

BTW, there's LOTS of "new" pictures to be had from that video...it's on the list...Klambake is holding out.


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Jeffrey L Witt
 

Dave, I do have that too; your scans look better than mine!

http://gdlines.info/G&D_links.htm#MRN_1948_Mar

And most of these are published in MR and MR Handbook...but the track plan is different. Why does the turntable always show up?

Cheers,

Jeff


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

David Thomas
 

I realise that the last sentence in my first paragraph was ambiguous. The photos in the 1968 Railway Modeller article were of course suppled by John Allen.

Looking more closely at the night time shot in John Allen's own March 1948 Model Railway News article, I realise that it was a set up. At that time John had only built three "old-time 54ft open end passenger cars" so they were clearly spaced out to imply a longer train. The rest of the stock he had at that time were a 4-4-0 "old time" passenger loco built with Mantua parts (the loco seen at the head of the train) an 0-4-0 Varney switcher "which doubles for a freight engine",  18 assorted freight cars, about half home (i.e. scratch) built and half kit built.and he was in the course of scratch building a 2-8-0 "old time" freight engine, four more freight cars  and a rotary snow plough "which actually is a track cleaner"  Of the six switches, five were no. 4 and one was a no. 6 


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

David Thomas
 

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 09:44 AM, Jeffrey L Witt wrote:
Happy Day-after Thanksgiving. Here's two from the September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller. I picked these two because I'm don't recall seeing either of these exact shots before. Correct me if I'm wrong. http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-258_2-300_0.jpg
http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-001_1-600_0.jpg

Jeff
Hi Jeff
Thanks for posting those. I have that edition of Railway Modeller. It was my first ever sight of the G&D or of American model railroading so, as a teenager I was well impressed. I had thought that I'd seen all those photos elsewhere but I could well have been mistaken. The artlcle was written by a British modeller D.L.Clarke who had visited John during a business trip to California and illustrated with six photos suppled by him.

By coincidence, while looking for something else yesterday evening, I found an early artlcle by John Allen in the Model Railway News of March 1948 describing the first G&D. His photos aren't particularly well reproduced apart from the one on the front cover.  I think I've seen them in the photo archive but was struck by the night time scene with all the coaches lit up. The track plan looks to be a very early one with some differences around the engine shed, though I understand that it and the turntable never did appear in that location within the loops.
His closing remarks are interesting though.
"Being in an area in which I am practically a 'pioneer' in the hobby, though I first learnt that there was such a thing as scale model railroading late in 1944, I've had to rely on magazines and books, rather than friends, for the necessary information on how to go about building a railroad. This being my first railroad I've kept the trackwork simple"

.







Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Tom Hokel (Pine Ridge RR)
 

Thanks for sharing these, Jeff. I've never seen them before. Are there any other "new" ones in the mag we haven't seen.

I've seen the privy before. Here are a couple of photos from the Andy's MR G&D interview video.


--
Tom
<PR> PINE RIDGE RR


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Lowell Dorman
 

Pretty sure it shows up in the video somewhere..


On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 4:16 PM Ken Vandevoort via Groups.Io <apo09324=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have seen a C&NW porta-potty on a flat car, so there is a prototype.

Ken Vandevoort


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Ken Vandevoort
 

I have seen a C&NW porta-potty on a flat car, so there is a prototype.

Ken Vandevoort


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Russell Courtenay
 

I notice it’s on the RIP track, maybe someone really ripped one and it had to be repaired! Sorry, couldn’t resist...

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Nov 29, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Tom Milam via Groups.Io <ncngrr@...> wrote:

Now there’s sometime I have never seen before , a Gorre and Daphetid privy on wheels . Must be from Whit Towers or at least the days of Whit and theNMRA outhouses! Thanks , I guess I got to do one of those

Tom Milam


On Nov 29, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt@...> wrote:

Happy Day-after Thanksgiving. Here's two from the September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller. I picked these two because I'm don't recall seeing either of these exact shots before. Correct me if I'm wrong. http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-258_2-300_0.jpg
http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-001_1-600_0.jpg

Jeff


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Warner Swarner
 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I missed that.  Not sure that’s a “Biffy” or a Bobber.  It would fit into the Biffy (privy) cartoon/humor models era with Towers as NMRA editor.  Either way it is a cool small model for a short line local.  I would love to model that for my BS RR in large scale.  Are there any other pictures of it in the archives?  Seems like I have seen a prototype for something like that on a West Side logging line or other in the NW woods RR built on a logging disconnect?  Certainly would be on the End of a train.
Happy Day After T Day.  
Warner Swarner



On Nov 29, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Tom Milam via Groups.Io <ncngrr@...> wrote:

Now there’s sometime I have never seen before , a Gorre and Daphetid privy on wheels . Must be from Whit Towers or at least the days of Whit and theNMRA outhouses! Thanks , I guess I got to do one of those

Tom Milam


On Nov 29, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt@...> wrote:

Happy Day-after Thanksgiving. Here's two from the September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller. I picked these two because I'm don't recall seeing either of these exact shots before. Correct me if I'm wrong. http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-258_2-300_0.jpg
http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-001_1-600_0.jpg

Jeff


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Tom Milam
 

Now there’s sometime I have never seen before , a Gorre and Daphetid privy on wheels . Must be from Whit Towers or at least the days of Whit and theNMRA outhouses! Thanks , I guess I got to do one of those

Tom Milam


On Nov 29, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Jeffrey L Witt via Groups.Io <jlwitt@...> wrote:

Happy Day-after Thanksgiving. Here's two from the September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller. I picked these two because I'm don't recall seeing either of these exact shots before. Correct me if I'm wrong. http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-258_2-300_0.jpg
http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-001_1-600_0.jpg

Jeff


Re: from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Jeffrey L Witt
 


from September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller

Jeffrey L Witt
 

Happy Day-after Thanksgiving. Here's two from the September 1968 British magazine Railway Modeller. I picked these two because I'm don't recall seeing either of these exact shots before. Correct me if I'm wrong. http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-258_2-300_0.jpg
http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RM-19680900-001_1-600_0.jpg

Jeff


HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL MY FELLOW JOHN ALLEN FANS

Matt Hosford
 
Edited

To everyone have a Safe and Happy Holiday weekend.

May all the feathers be plucked well on your bird and skip the couch and play trains!

In the spirit of giving and sharing......

Cyber sale Scale Structures LTD 25% off until Dec 8th.....for all the miniature holiday trimmings....

SS LTD 25 % off 

Matt Hosford
Wurn & Whythyrd Lines


Re: O Gauge version of original G&D

Russell Courtenay
 

Great work Charles! I’ll have to find that software. 

I really love the original G&D and feel the ‘Twice Around with Branch’ is the best small track plan out there for the amount of railroading you can get in a small space. 

I also love O scale and 2-rail. Unfortunately, O scale makes for some BIG roundy-round layouts, it just doesn’t fit on a 4x8. But this is a nice adaptation, I’ll have to pick up the magazine. 

My design of the original G&D is a bit smaller as it is designed as mainly an individual electric line with 24” radius (96 feet in O scale!) Complete it will be 6’8”x 8’8” but in the layout it will only be the front half and 3’4” deep- no complete loops, still working on a drawing. 

Most 2-rail O scale trains though will operate on 3-rail curves, here is an old video of my son (now a cranky 14 year old!) operating on my old Atlas 24” radius snap track 4x10 foot oval. 
https://youtu.be/naM2iU-hqLo

Russell Courtenay
Solemnity and profundity are sublime in inequity. 


On Nov 25, 2019, at 2:11 AM, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:

The December 2019/January 2020 issue (Run 309) of “O Gauge Railroading” magazine has an article “O Gauge Version of John Allen’s Iconic G&D” by Ken Hoganson.

 

I thought a little info about this might be interesting.  It is nice to see the G&D appear again.

 

I didn’t think it would appropriate to copy the plans from the magazine (especially one still on sale), so I redrew them.  If you do get the magazine, you will find there are at least several errors with the particular track pieces called out.  But it’s not hard to figure out what is correct (especially things like a left hand switch being noted as right hand).  He also mixes both Lionel Fastrack (plastic roadbed) and Atlas track (no roadbed) pointing out that the Atlas is good for bridges and such.

 

First, here is the original for reference:

 

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Here is my redrawing of the magazine track plan.  I used the program AnyRail and I think I got it pretty close.  The author points out, “As an O gauge plan, a number of features been added or revised form the original HO plan to meet O gauge enthusiast expectations.  Three new spurs have been added, along with an interchange track to a connecting railroad, hidden staging tracks, more structures, and some operating accessories.”

 

The turntable is an Atlas 24 incher and substantially larger, proportionally, than what John used.  The author acknowledges that it eats up a lot of space on the right wide of the layout.

 

There is a drawing in the magazine with suggested building locations and the result is MUCH more crowded than the original.  It is much closer to the spaghetti bowl trackage we so often see, especially in O gauge.  The bucolic nature seems completely lost.  But there is more railroading possible.  John had maybe six structures including water tanks, and they were small.  This O gauge plan has about 15 structures and quite a few are fairly large.

 

The radius isn’t as tight as John’s and the minimum is “O-60” which is 60” diameter or 30” radius.  (The original Lionel curves we had in our childhood were O-27 or O-31 for 27 and 31 inch diameters – really sharp curves – O-36 is what comes in most train sets now).

 

I think the O Gauge plan manages to lose original’s character, but the changes seem to have been carefully considered with reasons.

 

The layout size is 7”6” x 12’.  12” grid lines in my drawings.

 

The plan in the magazine has a bite taken out of the top right corner called “open access and viewing”.  Not sure it is needed depending on what sides of the layout are accessible.  Also, the lake (he calls it a pond) is designed to be removable for access.   Also,  unlike the original plan the lower level tracks to are not hidden at the upper right and the trestle carries the branch line over the now visible trackage.

 

The original plan has 6 switches, this plan increases that to 13.

 

<2456649809A14047A79D51B3CCF871D1.jpg>

 

Here it is after undoing all of those changes but still using the same pieces for most of the basic design that the author used.  I put a switch in about the right place for the spur along the front edge at Gorre.  I also tried to set up the turn table tracks closer to what the original was.  Due to how the space is, it might be better to deviate from the original design and perhaps put the engine house where you can have the longest tracks.  Finally, I made the tracks at the upper right of the plan hidden like the original.

 

<805A2D9C57ED44948D70AAC4775CEDCF.jpg>

 

Note that in this sort of track layout program it attempts to “lock” the pieces together and that is indicated by the little white circles.  Often, you can’t get things quite perfect and there may be a very small gap or misalignment on the CAD plan.  But if such errors are small, everything will connect fine in real life.  Track ha a little give and take.  This has two such minor issues:  The end of the track for what is the long straight bridge near Gorre doesn’t quite align with the switch to the branch line.  Also, the siding at the front edge as draw has all the track “locked” nicely, but it is at a slight angle and I meant it to be parallel.  But looking at the plan, perhaps I could just rotate the whole shebang a little to correct that.  Again, the track will easily give enough to allow a little realignment in real life.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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<2456649809A14047A79D51B3CCF871D1.jpg>
<805A2D9C57ED44948D70AAC4775CEDCF.jpg>


Re: RMC PDFs uploaded

Bob Friddle
 

somehow I never saw this, so thanks so much for sharing!


Re: smoke stack screens

Charles Kinzer
 

I don’t know what John Allen used.  But WAY back when I got some beryllium copper wire mesh.  (Small sizes tend to be called “mesh” and not “screen”.)

 

I went to some company in Chicago that made it when I was about 16 years old.  Of course, they sold it industrially, but took pity on me and gave me a little sample.  Voila.

 

It’s probably easier to find just plain copper mesh.  I found this company, as an example (and I’m sure there are others), and they have mesh counts of 1 to 2300.  They don’t give a unit of measurement, though.  Perhaps that is per centimeter.  For the finest mesh, the wire diameter is 0.0008” or 0.0203mm.  And 635x635 mesh count (again, don’t know if that is per centimeter or per inch).  That’s probably too fine, so you probably would want something large enough you can at least see the mesh, and perhaps even paint it although chemical blackening may be better.

 

They have a note “Free sample 20*20 cm (if available)”.  Probably a lifetime supply for somebody adding spark arresters to their HO engines.

 

https://www.zgwiremesh.com/product/copper-wire-mesh/

 

It seems they also have brass in these sizes and also offer other metals but not go to as fine a mesh size as copper.

 

How to make them?  I think you just cut with scissors and form them and/or stretch them as needed.  You have to be extremely careful if doing any soldering so that you don’t let solder wick into the screen and plug it up.

 

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Russ Desmond via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 2:39 PM
To: GandD@groups.io
Subject: [GandD] smoke stack screens

 

I am wondering if anyone can give me any info on the smokestack fire screens john used of some of his locos. How did he make them..... where did he buy them etc. This is a detail part I very much want to add to my locos.
--
Russell Desmond

 


smoke stack screens

 

I am wondering if anyone can give me any info on the smokestack fire screens john used of some of his locos. How did he make them..... where did he buy them etc. This is a detail part I very much want to add to my locos.
--
Russell Desmond