Heating a APRS tracker?


Larry
 

I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


AE5IB (Kip)
 

If you are going up to 130,000 feet and bursting no.

Kip

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 5:07 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Jerry
 

My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.

Also, the chemical warmers require oxygen for oxidize the contents and generate heat.  At altitude there isn't enough oxygen for that to happen anyway.

Jerry Gable
Balloon Flight Prediction tools
http://www.s3research.com


On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 3:12:33 PM MST, AE5IB (Kip) <kiptonm@...> wrote:


If you are going up to 130,000 feet and bursting no.

Kip

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 5:07 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


L. Paul Verhage KD4STH
 

For safety, I use a chemical heater too so the battery doesn't get too cold.

Since they need oxygen to function, their heat production drops off during the climb. However, I have found in one experiment that the battery stayed about 10 degrees warmer at its coldest compared to no heater.

Lithium shouldn't need heat, but a hand warmer is cheap insurance.

My 2.5 cents worth (inflation, you know)

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 4:07 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Hank Riley
 

This is a case of your mileage may (will) vary greatly depending on, but not limited to, the following factors that vary from payload to payload:

1.  Total heat generated by the payload.
2.  Construction of the payload (size, thickness, integrity of seal, if there even is any seal).
3.  Temperature of the payload at launch time.
4.  Flight altitude and flight profile.

Jerry, could you please be a little more specific than "nice and toasty."  Maybe upload some pictures of your payloads or give links to pictures that are already stored somewhere.

Given some more times I can cite payloads that got cold as heck (-10 F and lower inside a payload enclosure).  I hope others will chime in with their data before that.

Few if any amateur payload enclosures will avoid having almost 100% of the air inside removed and new air introduced if they get to any decent altitude (>60k feet).  That means that some frigid air gets in for some time.

Hank
________________________________________________________

On Thursday, July 9, Jerry wrote:

My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.


Joe WB9SBD
 

Plus what kind of "Warmer"

Most need O2 to operate, and of course where it's cold there is no O2 so just dead wasted weight.

Joe WB9SBD

On 7/9/2020 5:12 PM, AE5IB (Kip) wrote:
If you are going up to 130,000 feet and bursting no.

Kip

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 5:07 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Michael
 

Often they overheat the unit on the ground and make no difference way up. The hand/toe/foot warmers use air to react and generate heat and up there where air is rare and the temps are low they don’t works so well. Wrapping your device and batteries in bubble wrap has had good results for many of us. 

--Michael Willett

On Jul 9, 2020, at 5:25 PM, Jerry via groups.io <jerrygable@...> wrote:


My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.

Also, the chemical warmers require oxygen for oxidize the contents and generate heat.  At altitude there isn't enough oxygen for that to happen anyway.

Jerry Gable
Balloon Flight Prediction tools
http://www.s3research.com


On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 3:12:33 PM MST, AE5IB (Kip) <kiptonm@...> wrote:


If you are going up to 130,000 feet and bursting no.

Kip

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 5:07 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Jerry
 

I agree that results will vary.  The simplest packaging I have see is Bill Brown just wrapping it in a layer or 2 of bubble wrap.

My tracker box is shown below.  It is made from 1 inch Owens Corning FOAMULAR 150 1 in.from home depot.  The tracker is out but it just sits above the batteries.

I tried to find some of my temperature graphs but I don't know where they are.  Usually the batteries are the most sensitive.  The energizer lithiums are good  down to -40F so not much heating is required.





Jerry Gable
Balloon Flight Prediction tools
http://www.s3research.com


On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 4:03:22 PM MST, Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv@...> wrote:


This is a case of your mileage may (will) vary greatly depending on, but not limited to, the following factors that vary from payload to payload:

1.  Total heat generated by the payload.
2.  Construction of the payload (size, thickness, integrity of seal, if there even is any seal).
3.  Temperature of the payload at launch time.
4.  Flight altitude and flight profile.

Jerry, could you please be a little more specific than "nice and toasty."  Maybe upload some pictures of your payloads or give links to pictures that are already stored somewhere.

Given some more times I can cite payloads that got cold as heck (-10 F and lower inside a payload enclosure).  I hope others will chime in with their data before that.

Few if any amateur payload enclosures will avoid having almost 100% of the air inside removed and new air introduced if they get to any decent altitude (>60k feet).  That means that some frigid air gets in for some time.

Hank
________________________________________________________

On Thursday, July 9, Jerry wrote:

My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.


Jerry
 

Looks like the image was stripped.  Here is a link to it in dropbox.





On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 4:43:48 PM MST, Jerry via groups.io <jerrygable@...> wrote:


I agree that results will vary.  The simplest packaging I have see is Bill Brown just wrapping it in a layer or 2 of bubble wrap.

My tracker box is shown below.  It is made from 1 inch Owens Corning FOAMULAR 150 1 in.from home depot.  The tracker is out but it just sits above the batteries.

I tried to find some of my temperature graphs but I don't know where they are.  Usually the batteries are the most sensitive.  The energizer lithiums are good  down to -40F so not much heating is required.





Jerry Gable
Balloon Flight Prediction tools
http://www.s3research.com


On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 4:03:22 PM MST, Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv@...> wrote:


This is a case of your mileage may (will) vary greatly depending on, but not limited to, the following factors that vary from payload to payload:

1.  Total heat generated by the payload.
2.  Construction of the payload (size, thickness, integrity of seal, if there even is any seal).
3.  Temperature of the payload at launch time.
4.  Flight altitude and flight profile.

Jerry, could you please be a little more specific than "nice and toasty."  Maybe upload some pictures of your payloads or give links to pictures that are already stored somewhere.

Given some more times I can cite payloads that got cold as heck (-10 F and lower inside a payload enclosure).  I hope others will chime in with their data before that.

Few if any amateur payload enclosures will avoid having almost 100% of the air inside removed and new air introduced if they get to any decent altitude (>60k feet).  That means that some frigid air gets in for some time.

Hank
________________________________________________________

On Thursday, July 9, Jerry wrote:

My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.


James Ewen VE6SRV
 

The carbon hand warmers can still add heat to the payload at altitude. They will still be a thermal mass even when there is not enough oxygen to support combustion. 

You really need to understand your payload and it’s heat load dynamics. We have had GoPro cameras shut down at altitude due to over temperature issues. The cameras make enough heat by themselves, and at altitude the convective losses go away, which can lead to heat build up. 

We don’t fly any heating in our payloads at all. 

James
VE6SRV

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:47 PM Jerry via groups.io <jerrygable=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Looks like the image was stripped.  Here is a link to it in dropbox.





On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 4:43:48 PM MST, Jerry via groups.io <jerrygable=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


I agree that results will vary.  The simplest packaging I have see is Bill Brown just wrapping it in a layer or 2 of bubble wrap.

My tracker box is shown below.  It is made from 1 inch Owens Corning FOAMULAR 150 1 in.from home depot.  The tracker is out but it just sits above the batteries.

I tried to find some of my temperature graphs but I don't know where they are.  Usually the batteries are the most sensitive.  The energizer lithiums are good  down to -40F so not much heating is required.





Jerry Gable
Balloon Flight Prediction tools
http://www.s3research.com


On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 4:03:22 PM MST, Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


This is a case of your mileage may (will) vary greatly depending on, but not limited to, the following factors that vary from payload to payload:

1.  Total heat generated by the payload.
2.  Construction of the payload (size, thickness, integrity of seal, if there even is any seal).
3.  Temperature of the payload at launch time.
4.  Flight altitude and flight profile.

Jerry, could you please be a little more specific than "nice and toasty."  Maybe upload some pictures of your payloads or give links to pictures that are already stored somewhere.

Given some more times I can cite payloads that got cold as heck (-10 F and lower inside a payload enclosure).  I hope others will chime in with their data before that.

Few if any amateur payload enclosures will avoid having almost 100% of the air inside removed and new air introduced if they get to any decent altitude (>60k feet).  That means that some frigid air gets in for some time.

Hank
________________________________________________________

On Thursday, July 9, Jerry wrote:

My experience has been that inside a Styrofoam box it stays nice and toasty with just the trackers and batteries on.  I use a big red bee tracker.

--
James
VE6SRV


Hank Riley
 

Images imbedded (or inline) should be passed through fine; they were a few months ago.  Stored separately on the website, so they're available by both access modes.

I'm pretty sure attachments are also allowed.


Inline image


Michael Hojnowski
 

I would spend the time to see if you can run the BigRedBee off Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries instead of a LiPo.  If you can, just use the Energizers in the payload box and don't worry about it.  I've run my own trackers OUTSIDE a payload box, wearing nothing but shrink-wrap and they've operated just fine down below -40 with Ultimate Lithiums.  If you have to use the LiPo battery then yes, I'd find a way to insulate and keep it warm.  I've seen many novices in our area lose payloads because they ran trackers on lipos.

Mike / KD2EAT

On 7/9/2020 6:07 PM, Larry wrote:
I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Bill Brown
 

Depending on how well insulated and airtight your styrofoam box is constructed and what other electronics that might be generating heat inside the payload you run the risk of overheating everything, particularly as you go into the near vacuum of the Stratosphere.  I agree with some of the other posts that the AA and AAA Eveready Lithiums are the way to go for a flight. I have had great success with mounting my trackers on a flat piece of foamcore and surrounding it with three layers of small-cell bubble wrap.  The Greenhouse effect will keep it pretty warm during a daytime flight and the payload is pretty lightweight as a result.

- Bill WB8ELK


-----Original Message-----
From: Larry <larry.phegley@...>
To: gpsl@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2020 5:07 pm
Subject: [GPSL] Heating a APRS tracker?

I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Jayant Murthy
 

We had to put holes in our styrofoam boxes because our equipment would overheat.
Jayant

On Friday, July 10, 2020, 3:37:59 AM GMT+5:30, Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:


I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Larry
 

Yes I am using Ultra Lithium batteries.  So I should be good.

I used Grabber toe warmers.  On the back of the package it says:

Designed to function in the low-oxygen environments of boots and socks 

Bubble wrap can survive to 100,000ft?  I'm going with that.

Thanks everyone.

Larry
KJ6PBS
 


On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:27 PM Jayant Murthy via groups.io <jmurthy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
We had to put holes in our styrofoam boxes because our equipment would overheat.
Jayant

On Friday, July 10, 2020, 3:37:59 AM GMT+5:30, Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:


I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS


Zack Clobes W0ZC
 

Yes, the bubble wrap survives just fine - I've reused my wrap for numerous launches.

Zack

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 AM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
Yes I am using Ultra Lithium batteries.  So I should be good.

I used Grabber toe warmers.  On the back of the package it says:

Designed to function in the low-oxygen environments of boots and socks 

Bubble wrap can survive to 100,000ft?  I'm going with that.

Thanks everyone.

Larry
KJ6PBS
 

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:27 PM Jayant Murthy via groups.io <jmurthy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
We had to put holes in our styrofoam boxes because our equipment would overheat.
Jayant

On Friday, July 10, 2020, 3:37:59 AM GMT+5:30, Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:


I use a BigRedBee and  have been placing a toe warmer between the batteries and the tracker inside a 3 inch styrofoam container.  Is the extra heat actually needed?

Larry
KJ6PBS