Date   

Topo Map

paul.verhage@...
 

Ralph, I'm planning to work on the GPSL logo again this weekend.
However, when I search my PC in the classroom, I can't find the
topo map you emailed. I may have it at home. But if I don't, then it
probably won't be until next week before I have access to email to
ask for the file. Can you email me the file again? I'll start a search
over the internet for a copy, just in case.

I plan for the logo be just like my first suggestion, but witht he topo
map of Kansas instead.

Paul


Re: 500 mile flight?

Don Pfister <ka0jlf@...>
 

Well in a month, I'll be crewing for the RAAM and will travel from Portland, OR
to Pensacola, FL basically non-stop. It took Fabio a little over 9 days to ride
the race a couple of years ago, hope to be faster this time. ;-)


http://www.ultracycling.com/events/raam.html
http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/

I could monitor it during the race. ;-)

73 Don

"Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" wrote:

The discussion of Mean Zonal Winds (MZW) at
http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/MZW.html helps us start planning toward
a long distance mission (but lets plan toward more than 703.02 miles to give
us a chance at breaking the SSOK/WB0DRL record - see
http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/RECORDS.html). MZW data includes mean
wind speed (m/s) at various altitudes but there is no directional component
other than westerly vs. easterly.


500 mile flight (II)

K. Mark Caviezel
 

Yes, I am appraised that the 30-40k feet altitude I
mention is 'right in the middle of the jetways', but I
recently read "Around the World in 20 days" by
Bertrand Piccard and Brian Smith, the team that
circumnavigated the Earth in 1999 in a big Rozier
balloon. Most all of thier flight was 15-35k feet
altitude. Yes, air traffic control was an issue
(particularly border crossings), but it was an issue
that they surmounted within the rules of all the
countries they flew over.
The winter winds in general from altitudes 10k feet to
80k feet are good for a flight from here in Denver to
locations east of here, but GPSL is in the summer, and
my knowledge of summer winds over Denver put a cap of
about 50k feet for a balloon wanting to go from here
to there.

The basic issues are:
a). balloon vehicle capable of float, multiple
altitudes desireable (I can do this)
b). telemetry, control, termination. All this has
been done on EOSS flights and "ES-OS" flights.
c). flight prediction/flight management. Similar to
what most balloon groups do for all flights anyways,
with a twist of long time aloft and significant
lateral travel over the ground.
d). "political issues" - FAA, responsible flight
with other users of aerial navigation. Piccard and
Smith did it, manned, in 1999 with a champagne budget,
I'd like to do it, unmanned, in 2002 with a "beer and
pizza" budget.

I am seeking help for those interested in helping on
c). and d). to see if we (the amatuer ballooning
community) can pull this off in a safe and successful
manner.

73s all - KMC KC0JHQ



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Re: 500 mile flight (II)

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>
 

All of these "around-the-world" attempts were flying in the busy 15-35kft
altitude range but they were using altitude encoded radar transponders and
in constant communication with air traffic control. ATC could always
identify them on radar and vectored more maneuverable aircraft away from
them. In my opinion, these manned flights are not reasonable operational
models for much less significant unmanned missions.

It is possible to fly a transponder, even with encoding, in an unmanned high
altitude payload but they are expensive, ~$2,000, and they use a lot of
power. It is my general impression that without a transponder and constant
communications with ATC, the FAA would consider an unmanned balloon cruising
at 15-35kft to be derelict and a threat to air navigation.

Summer winds aloft above 60kft would not be useful for a west-to-east
flight. If we want to fly during the summer above controlled air space
(above 60kft) we would have to go east-to-west at a much slower speed of
4-8m/s (7-15kts, 9-18mph). A record breaking 710 mile flight would
therefore take 710/13.5 = ~52 hours which is far two long for an amateur
zero pressure mission. (This MZW-derived estimate compares nicely with
NASA/NSBF missions in August 2000 from south central Iowa to southeastern
Nebraska, roughly 200 miles in 16 hours, averaging 12.5mph.)

Timing this mission for GPSL-2003 would be a problem because attendees are
already completely scheduled with a busy symposium and multiple flight
schedule. There would be very little, if any, time available for attendees
to participate in a complicated long-duration long-haul mission.

All of this takes me back to a west-to-east 60-80kft mission during the
winter. Ascent and descent would be in controlled airspace but only for an
hour each. The roughly 24 hour cruise would be above controlled air space
so a transponder and constant ATC contact would not be required. It is easy
to imagine a payload of two <6-pound packages, including ballast dumping, so
the flight would be exempt.

A winter flight would allow the eastern recovery troops to dedicate a
weekend to the mission while driving long distances to be in the right place
at the right time for descent and touchdown. Home stations at intermediate
distances, spaced ~200 miles apart, could capture telemetry and report their
observations. They could also be equipped for an "emergency" cutdown
command if system failure allowed descent into controlled air space.

It is reasonable to believe that a recovery team can be put together at this
end (Iowa, Illinois, et al.), that intermediate stations can be recruited
for any possible flight track, and that winds aloft data and track
prediction processes are dependable. I believe this can be done and safely.

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
Optimal solutions do not always exist


Logo

paul.verhage@...
 

I've designed a logo for GPSL but arranged to leave the diskette at
home. I'll post it tomorrow. I'd like the motto for this year's GPSL
to be, "100,000 feet. Been There, Done That".

Paul


re 500 mile flight

K. Mark Caviezel
 

Points well made, Ralph.
I'll just leave the proposal on the table, see if we
form a critical mass to move this project forward.
My goal is not to break the distance record, but
rather to navigate a balloon to within a reasonable
radius of a desired target far away. Denver-
Manhattan seems do-able technically, but clearly ATC
"buy-in" needs to happen.

- KMC



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Re: Logo

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>
 

Paul is doing the vast majority of the work to put GPSL-2002 together so I
will bow deeply to him and accept this motto.

However, we should understand how unusual it is to reach 100,000ft. In the
process of collecting data for discussions about Mean Zonal Winds
(http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/MZW.html) and Ascent Rate Variations
(http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/ASCENT.html) you folks sent me a lot of
flight data for missions past. For Mean Zonal Winds I accepted mission data
from before and after SA was turned off on 02May00 and we have a total of 54
missions in the study. Only 4 of those missions went above 100,000ft which
is 7.4%.

For analysis of Ascent Rate Variations I only used data from missions after
SA was turned off. There were a total of 28 missions in the study of which
only 2 went above 100,000ft. Again, that is 7.1%. This indicates we are
not flying higher as time goes by.

It appears we should not be overselling our collective ability to make it to
100,000ft because it happens less than 1 flight out of 10.

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
Results may not be reproducible

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:13 AM
Subject: [GPSL] Logo


I've designed a logo for GPSL but arranged to leave the diskette at
home. I'll post it tomorrow. I'd like the motto for this year's GPSL
to be, "100,000 feet. Been There, Done That".

Paul


GPSL Logo

paul.verhage@...
 

Here's the logo (that I left at home yesterday). Feel free to use it,
there is no copyright or anything like that (unless you plan to make
a million bucks with it).

It's a Corel Draw file. Apparently I forgot to copy the BMP vsrsion
of it. If someone can convert CDR files to BMPs or GIFs, please
do.

Paul


Re: Logo

Mark Conner <n9xtn@...>
 

I think most of us have the *ability* to get to 100,000 ft, but
some of us have not tried very hard on most flights.

The baseline for a 100kft effort, when you're lifting more than
2-3 lbs., is a 1200g balloon. To me, anyone flying less than a
1200g balloon with more than a flyweight payload is not expecting
100kft. For NSTAR, I've flown only 4 1200g balloons in 10
flights (none larger). Three of these four were deliberately
overfilled to decrease the flight distance, which means that I'm
0 for 1 (01-B) in actual attempts at 100kft.

It would be interesting to see the numbers for 1200g-and-larger
balloons flown. I believe everyone at GPSL is planning to use
1200g.

73 de Mark N9XTN

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" <wallio@crosspaths.net>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Paul Verhage, KD4STH" <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 07:41
Subject: Re: [GPSL] Logo

It appears we should not be overselling our collective ability
to make it to
100,000ft because it happens less than 1 flight out of 10.


Re: GPSL Logo

paul.verhage@...
 

The file should be in color.

We've got Corel at the campus, I'll try running the conversion after
my first class.

Paul

I have software that can make the conversion (XnView) but the CDR file is
displaying with many gray line artifacts within the state outline that don't
appear to look right(?)

-w0rpk


----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [GPSL] GPSL Logo


Here's the logo (that I left at home yesterday). Feel free to use it,
there is no copyright or anything like that (unless you plan to make
a million bucks with it).

It's a Corel Draw file. Apparently I forgot to copy the BMP vsrsion
of it. If someone can convert CDR files to BMPs or GIFs, please
do.

Paul



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Re: GPSL Logo

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>
 

I have software that can make the conversion (XnView) but the CDR file is
displaying with many gray line artifacts within the state outline that don't
appear to look right(?)

-w0rpk

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [GPSL] GPSL Logo


Here's the logo (that I left at home yesterday). Feel free to use it,
there is no copyright or anything like that (unless you plan to make
a million bucks with it).

It's a Corel Draw file. Apparently I forgot to copy the BMP vsrsion
of it. If someone can convert CDR files to BMPs or GIFs, please
do.

Paul


Re: Frequency Coordination

ka0jlf <ka0jlf@...>
 

--- In GPSL@y..., "Mark Conner" <n9xtn@c...> wrote:
I can keep track of the various modes, frequencies, etc.
Do I understand this exchange to mean we are not going to keep the
info on the groups page?

I have been waiting to see what was being used before I decided.
However, it does not look like all of us can view it as a
collection.

I think sharing the info would be good, isn't that why this group was
created? What if we keep it in the files area or create a Database?

I have not created or used a Database in Yahoo Groups, this may not
be a good idea. However, I would be will to give it a try. Input from
the rest of you?

Thanks,
Don

I will go back to being silent.


Re: Frequency Coordination

Mark Conner <n9xtn@...>
 

The intent is to make all this public. I haven't had the time to
compile what I've gotten into a easy-to-read form. Even a simple HTML
page is probably sufficient.

I haven't found the Yahoo database stuff to be all that useful.

Everything I've received has been through the GPSL or KNSP group e-mail
so if you review the archive in the last month or so you'll know what I
know.

- Mark

----- Original Message -----
From: "ka0jlf" <ka0jlf@earthlink.net>
Date: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:05 pm
Subject: [GPSL] Re: Frequency Coordination

--- In GPSL@y..., "Mark Conner" <n9xtn@c...> wrote:
I can keep track of the various modes, frequencies, etc.
Do I understand this exchange to mean we are not going to keep the
info on the groups page?

I have been waiting to see what was being used before I decided.
However, it does not look like all of us can view it as a
collection.

I think sharing the info would be good, isn't that why this group
was
created? What if we keep it in the files area or create a Database?

I have not created or used a Database in Yahoo Groups, this may not
be a good idea. However, I would be will to give it a try. Input from
the rest of you?

Thanks,
Don

I will go back to being silent.


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Re: Frequency Coordination

Don Pfister <ka0jlf@...>
 

Thanks Mark, I didn't intend to make more work for anyone. I'll see what I can
do.

Don

Mark Conner wrote:

The intent is to make all this public. I haven't had the time to


Re: Frequency Coordination

mgray@...
 

I created a file in the Files Section of the Yahoo group that contains
a list of frequencies, etc for the ANSR flight. If someone wants to
copy this file, they can add the frequencies for all the missions into
a single file.

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Thanks Mark, I didn't intend to make more work for anyone. I'll see what I can
do.

Don

Mark Conner wrote:

> The intent is to make all this public. I haven't had the time to



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Got Helium?

paul.verhage@...
 

I need to know how many people need helium for GPSL. If
someone will be local to Manhattan on the 3rd and can help move
helium, please let me know (I have a small Prizm and can't carry
150 pound tanks in it).

Tanks,
Paul


100k feet?

K. Mark Caviezel
 

7.4% of flights going to over 100k feet is a heck of a
lot more frequent than most anything else that flies.
Paul points out that many missions don't realistically
expect to break 100k, but if the flight operators
'simply' put some extra money into a larger balloon,
then it would happen with more frequency.
I like Paul's slogan for the GPSL.
- KMC

__________________________________________________
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Re: Got Helium?

paul.verhage@...
 

Paul, I'll take one tank of helium. I could drive out to Manhattan and help
(manpower) but my car too is small. What about delivery? Does the gas place
charge for delivery or is it going to be delivered to the school?
Linweld won't deliver. I have to carry the tanks out myself.

Paul


Re: Got Helium?

Don Pfister <ka0jlf@...>
 

Paul, I'll take one tank of helium. I could drive out to Manhattan and help
(manpower) but my car too is small. What about delivery? Does the gas place
charge for delivery or is it going to be delivered to the school?

Don

paul.verhage@boiseschools.org wrote:

I need to know how many people need helium for GPSL. If
someone will be local to Manhattan on the 3rd and can help move
helium, please let me know (I have a small Prizm and can't carry
150 pound tanks in it).

Tanks,
Paul


Re: Got Helium?

paul.verhage@...
 

I have carried one tank in my car, I should be able to get at least two in there.
It might take me a few trips but if no one closer, I'll do it. They will be okay
at Johnson Near Space Center right?
The center locks, so the tanks will be safe.

Paul

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