Date   

Re: Part 101

BASE_DePauw
 

Joe,

Subpart B of FAR 101 covers tethered (moored) balloons.


§ 101.13 Operating limitations.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate a moored balloon or kite -

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it, if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the structure.


§ 101.17 Lighting and marking requirements.

(a) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite, between sunset and sunrise unless the balloon or kite, and its mooring lines, are lighted so as to give a visual warning equal to that required for obstructions to air navigation in the FAA publication “Obstruction Marking and Lighting”.

(b) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile.


Hope this is helpful,

Howard, KC9QBN



On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:03 PM Joe WB9SBD <nss@...> wrote:
Ok,

 From doing these flight for over 30 years I know Far 101 for Free
balloons inside and out.

But I am having trouble to find out what is legal and what is not for a
tethered or Moored balloon.

How high can you go, does it matter what size of balloon,

  day vs night etc.?

Joe WB9SBD








--
Howard L. Brooks
Professor of Physics and Astronomy
241 Julian Science and Mathematics Center
DePauw University
2 E. Hanna Street
Greencastle, IN 46135
hlbrooks@...


Part 101

Joe WB9SBD
 

Ok,

From doing these flight for over 30 years I know Far 101 for Free balloons inside and out.

But I am having trouble to find out what is legal and what is not for a tethered or Moored balloon.

How high can you go, does it matter what size of balloon,

 day vs night etc.?

Joe WB9SBD


Re: Hydrogen Regulator

Joe WB9SBD
 

Welcome everyone to the world of H2! he he he
As Bill knows, H2 is all we have ever used. from Day one, geez what over 30 years ago.

Joe WB9SBD

On 5/13/2021 12:42 AM, Bill Brown via groups.io wrote:
Hi Larry...that one looks ok, it has the right tank fitting...I just ordered one from my local welding shop for about $120.  I will let you know the brand and specs on that one when it arrives.

- Bill WB8ELK


-----Original Message-----
From: Larry <larry.phegley@...>
To: gpsl@groups.io; Bob Mannix <mnxb831@...>
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2021 9:04 pm
Subject: [GPSL] Hydrogen Regulator

We are trying to get a hydrogen regulator to shift over to Hydrogen.  I am not an expert but I did read a review of a regulator that said it would not fill the balloon if you fully opened the tank valve.  So I am guessing that some of these regulators have limited input pressure not equal to tank pressure?

It also seems to be difficult to see specifications on most of the regulators I see online.

Does anyone know anything about this regulator or could you recommend one?


Larry
KJ6PBS



Re: Hydrogen Regulator

Bill Brown
 

Hi Larry...that one looks ok, it has the right tank fitting...I just ordered one from my local welding shop for about $120.  I will let you know the brand and specs on that one when it arrives.

- Bill WB8ELK


-----Original Message-----
From: Larry <larry.phegley@...>
To: gpsl@groups.io; Bob Mannix <mnxb831@...>
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2021 9:04 pm
Subject: [GPSL] Hydrogen Regulator

We are trying to get a hydrogen regulator to shift over to Hydrogen.  I am not an expert but I did read a review of a regulator that said it would not fill the balloon if you fully opened the tank valve.  So I am guessing that some of these regulators have limited input pressure not equal to tank pressure?

It also seems to be difficult to see specifications on most of the regulators I see online.

Does anyone know anything about this regulator or could you recommend one?


Larry
KJ6PBS


Re: Hydrogen Regulator

Dennis Klipa - N8ERF
 

Larry,

I sent you a regulator document offlist that contains inlet and out pressure ranges and flowrate data.

I am not sure what the review means when it says, you can't fill the balloon.  Do they mean that the flow would be too low or that it needs some back pressure in order to regulate it?  That regulator has an output range of 2-40 psig.  The balloon never exceeds about 0.5 psig.  I don't know what happens when there is zero back pressure with that regulator.

Do you have a link for the review?

Best Regards,
Dennis, N8ERF


On Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:04 PM Larry <larry.phegley@...> wrote:
We are trying to get a hydrogen regulator to shift over to Hydrogen.  I am not an expert but I did read a review of a regulator that said it would not fill the balloon if you fully opened the tank valve.  So I am guessing that some of these regulators have limited input pressure not equal to tank pressure?

It also seems to be difficult to see specifications on most of the regulators I see online.

Does anyone know anything about this regulator or could you recommend one?


Larry
KJ6PBS


Hydrogen Regulator

Larry
 

We are trying to get a hydrogen regulator to shift over to Hydrogen.  I am not an expert but I did read a review of a regulator that said it would not fill the balloon if you fully opened the tank valve.  So I am guessing that some of these regulators have limited input pressure not equal to tank pressure?

It also seems to be difficult to see specifications on most of the regulators I see online.

Does anyone know anything about this regulator or could you recommend one?


Larry
KJ6PBS


Re: High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech

W4SDR EM74
 

Oh yes - QSL on the trees!
We had one land in a tree at a nudist colony in North Carolina.
We had to get permission to "retrieve a box that landed on your property with a camera inside".

Currently - The Midnight Rider is on orbit 3.

73
Tom W4SDR


On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 9:33 PM Kevin Sterne <ksterne@...> wrote:
Hello Tom,



Thanks for following us.  We flew a latex balloon.  As with most east coast flights, our flight string found a tall tree on its way down.

73,
-Kevin, KJ4OAP



From: GPSL@groups.io <GPSL@groups.io> on behalf of W4SDR EM74 <tommcelroy.mail@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:48 AM
To: GPSL@groups.io <GPSL@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [GPSL] High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech
 
Hello Kevin,
Jack KM4ZIA and Audrey KM4BUN are watching.  What kind of balloon?
So far, it seems to have the altitude we've found with latex, but your
balloon has the longevity of PET.

73
Tom W4SDR

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:33 PM Kevin Sterne <ksterne@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I'd like to invite you to remotely enjoy tracking our HAB tomorrow (May 8th) with a target launch time of 8am EDT.  As of now, we're proceeding with the launch though we are very close to launch site wind thresholds which could cause us to cancel the launch tomorrow morning. (We've been enjoying some of the recent shares of windy launches)  You can track the balloon through one of 2 ways:
>
> APRS: https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=12&call=a%2FKJ4OAP-11&timerange=21600&tail=21600
> Balloon SPOT: https://maps.findmespot.com/s/NS54
>
> Since this is the first balloon flight in a number of years at Virginia Tech, we're flying fairly simple payloads (GPS & weather logging, cameras, etc.).  We are hoping to do a second flight sometime in June.
>
> We would like to thank the Kevin T. Crofton Department of Aerospace and Ocean Engineering at Virginia Tech as this department funded these payloads and this flight.  With the lessons learned from this flight and a possible second flight, we're hoping to include high altitude ballooning in undergrad course projects where student built payloads go to the stratosphere and back.
>
> Cheers,
> -Kevin Sterne, KJ4OAP
>
> Research Associate | Space@VT
> Faculty Advisor | Amateur Radio Association at Virginia Tech
>
>
> --







Re: High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech

Kevin Sterne
 

Hello Tom,



Thanks for following us.  We flew a latex balloon.  As with most east coast flights, our flight string found a tall tree on its way down.

73,
-Kevin, KJ4OAP



From: GPSL@groups.io <GPSL@groups.io> on behalf of W4SDR EM74 <tommcelroy.mail@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:48 AM
To: GPSL@groups.io <GPSL@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [GPSL] High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech
 
Hello Kevin,
Jack KM4ZIA and Audrey KM4BUN are watching.  What kind of balloon?
So far, it seems to have the altitude we've found with latex, but your
balloon has the longevity of PET.

73
Tom W4SDR

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:33 PM Kevin Sterne <ksterne@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I'd like to invite you to remotely enjoy tracking our HAB tomorrow (May 8th) with a target launch time of 8am EDT.  As of now, we're proceeding with the launch though we are very close to launch site wind thresholds which could cause us to cancel the launch tomorrow morning. (We've been enjoying some of the recent shares of windy launches)  You can track the balloon through one of 2 ways:
>
> APRS: https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=12&call=a%2FKJ4OAP-11&timerange=21600&tail=21600
> Balloon SPOT: https://maps.findmespot.com/s/NS54
>
> Since this is the first balloon flight in a number of years at Virginia Tech, we're flying fairly simple payloads (GPS & weather logging, cameras, etc.).  We are hoping to do a second flight sometime in June.
>
> We would like to thank the Kevin T. Crofton Department of Aerospace and Ocean Engineering at Virginia Tech as this department funded these payloads and this flight.  With the lessons learned from this flight and a possible second flight, we're hoping to include high altitude ballooning in undergrad course projects where student built payloads go to the stratosphere and back.
>
> Cheers,
> -Kevin Sterne, KJ4OAP
>
> Research Associate | Space@VT
> Faculty Advisor | Amateur Radio Association at Virginia Tech
>
>
> --







Re: High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech

W4SDR EM74
 

Hello Kevin,
Jack KM4ZIA and Audrey KM4BUN are watching. What kind of balloon?
So far, it seems to have the altitude we've found with latex, but your
balloon has the longevity of PET.

73
Tom W4SDR

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:33 PM Kevin Sterne <ksterne@vt.edu> wrote:

Hello all,


I'd like to invite you to remotely enjoy tracking our HAB tomorrow (May 8th) with a target launch time of 8am EDT. As of now, we're proceeding with the launch though we are very close to launch site wind thresholds which could cause us to cancel the launch tomorrow morning. (We've been enjoying some of the recent shares of windy launches) You can track the balloon through one of 2 ways:

APRS: https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=12&call=a%2FKJ4OAP-11&timerange=21600&tail=21600
Balloon SPOT: https://maps.findmespot.com/s/NS54

Since this is the first balloon flight in a number of years at Virginia Tech, we're flying fairly simple payloads (GPS & weather logging, cameras, etc.). We are hoping to do a second flight sometime in June.

We would like to thank the Kevin T. Crofton Department of Aerospace and Ocean Engineering at Virginia Tech as this department funded these payloads and this flight. With the lessons learned from this flight and a possible second flight, we're hoping to include high altitude ballooning in undergrad course projects where student built payloads go to the stratosphere and back.

Cheers,
-Kevin Sterne, KJ4OAP

Research Associate | Space@VT
Faculty Advisor | Amateur Radio Association at Virginia Tech


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High Altitude Balloon Launch tomorrow 5/8, Virginia Tech

Kevin Sterne
 

Hello all,


I'd like to invite you to remotely enjoy tracking our HAB tomorrow (May 8th) with a target launch time of 8am EDT.  As of now, we're proceeding with the launch though we are very close to launch site wind thresholds which could cause us to cancel the launch tomorrow morning. (We've been enjoying some of the recent shares of windy launches)  You can track the balloon through one of 2 ways:

Balloon SPOT: https://maps.findmespot.com/s/NS54

Since this is the first balloon flight in a number of years at Virginia Tech, we're flying fairly simple payloads (GPS & weather logging, cameras, etc.).  We are hoping to do a second flight sometime in June.

We would like to thank the Kevin T. Crofton Department of Aerospace and Ocean Engineering at Virginia Tech as this department funded these payloads and this flight.  With the lessons learned from this flight and a possible second flight, we're hoping to include high altitude ballooning in undergrad course projects where student built payloads go to the stratosphere and back. 

Cheers,
-Kevin Sterne, KJ4OAP

Research Associate | Space@VT
Faculty Advisor | Amateur Radio Association at Virginia Tech


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to spacevt-faculty-g+unsubscribe@....
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High Altitude Balloon launch on Saturday, May 8, weather permitting

Michael Hojnowski
 

Hi Gang, The Amateur Radio Club at Cornell, W2CXM, in collaboration with the Space Systems Design Studio (SSDS), part of the Sibley School of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Cornell University will be hosting a High Altitude Balloon launch event on Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3pm EST.  The balloon balloon flight will traverse South Central New York State, in the vicinity of Ithaca, NY.  The payload is expected to reach 100,000 feet and land northeast of Ithaca.  The SSDS payload will be testing the deployment of a Solar Sail mockup that is planned for a future Cubesat space mission.  If all of our technology works, we will be livestreaming live video from the payload for the duration of the flight.  The stream will be available on youtube beginning at 3:00pm here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNWlPWT0J4g.  Additional tracking links will be in the “Description” of the youtube page. Mike Hojnowski / KD2EAT, Advisor to the Amateur Radio Club at Cornell


Re: Dry Ice payload testing

steve potter
 

I would also like to chime in and say a small battery powered fan would likely increase the distribution of the cold air, even in a cooler there will be a difference in temperature from the top to the bottom of it, some kind of circulation would likely help.


On Sun, May 2, 2021, 8:57 PM Michael Hojnowski <kd2eat@...> wrote:
Hey Gang,

Does anyone have much experience in cold-testing payloads with dry
ice?   A few students on our team tried to use dry ice for a test, and
didn't have much luck.  The objective is to try and test the payload box
in very cold exterior temperatures to see if the interior can be kept
warm.  They have an experiment that won't tolerate cold very well.  The
initial attempt was to use a small battery powered hand warmer (which
has a thermostat to keep from getting too warm) inside the payload box
to keep the temperature around 70f.  The "hoped for" outcome was that
they would measure some very cold (-40ish) temps outside the payload
box, but that the interior would remain toasty warm.   In practice, the
test didn't work out so well.

I didn't see the test, but they apparently got 8 pounds of dry ice and
put it in a large cooler.  They put the payload box in the cooler, and
ran some thermocouples into the payload box and surrounding container. 
The larger cooler was a snug fit around the payload box.

They left it closed for an hour, and the "outer cooler" temp only went
down to about 7c.  Unfortunately, the payload box interior temp went
down to just about the same during the test.  Apparently, the hand
warmer failed at some point during the test.

They'd like to be able to create very cold conditions outside the
payload box (colder than 7c) while they sort out the interior heating
issue.

If anyone has some experience, war stories, or scars they can share, the
team would appreciate it.

Thanks!
Mike






Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Michael Hojnowski
 

Yes, I've seen similar with cameras that run hot inside the payload box.  They have nowhere to dissipate the heat at altitude.

The team does have access to nitrogen chilled vacuum chamber as well.  Unfortunately, it's pretty small so it's not possible to test this payload with it.  As you say, it's better than no test at all, but we're aware of the limitations.

Thanks to you, and all, for the suggestions.  I've passed them onto the team members.

Mike / KD2EAT

On 5/3/2021 9:35 AM, Joe WB9SBD wrote:
Something to remember,

While this test using Dry Ice is better than no test at all.

It is also very different set of conditions than what is happening at flight levels. Due to how heat is escaping the heat generating components.

Remember cold is NOT going INTO a component, the Heat energy is being REMOVED from the component.

And being in the near vacuum, two of the paths of heat energy is either gone or highly removed because of the lack of air.

Convection, and Conduction. You primary path of heat transfer is now Radiation. And dry Ice has no effect on that.

I have had repeaters overheat during flights. They would shut down. We suspected heat caused this because the behavior was exactly the same as when it would overheat when being testing at sea level. So one flight we had three temp probes running during the flight.

One outside,

One inside

and one on the heatsink for the final amps.

The air outside had a curve as expected.

The "AIR" inside probe but not touching anything, was somewhat surprising. it had a very similar curve as the outside curve, it was just about 15 minutes behind, this was with 2" thick Styrofoam, with foil covering.

But the probe on the heat-sink when on the ground (with lots of dense air) would reach a max about 20 to 30 degrees above ambient temp.

But at altitude, WOW! The "AIR" temp in the payload could be well below zero. But the heatsink was was well above 100 deg, at times exceeding 140 degrees!

Because the heatsink only had radiation as a way to dump heat. And the payload being foil lined, any radiation that did escape the heat-sink was reflected back onto it.

Joe WB9SBD


On 5/3/2021 8:06 AM, Bruce Coates wrote:
Hi Michael

Another trick you can use is to pre-chill the outer cooler, and ideally run the entire experiment, inside a standard chest freezer.   On its coldest setting, that would get the external temperature you down to around -20c making it easier for the dry ice to further chill the interior. 

73, Bruce - VE5BNC
SABRE



Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Joe WB9SBD
 

Something to remember,

While this test using Dry Ice is better than no test at all.

It is also very different set of conditions than what is happening at flight levels. Due to how heat is escaping the heat generating components.

Remember cold is NOT going INTO a component, the Heat energy is being REMOVED from the component.

And being in the near vacuum, two of the paths of heat energy is either gone or highly removed because of the lack of air.

Convection, and Conduction. You primary path of heat transfer is now Radiation. And dry Ice has no effect on that.

I have had repeaters overheat during flights. They would shut down. We suspected heat caused this because the behavior was exactly the same as when it would overheat when being testing at sea level. So one flight we had three temp probes running during the flight.

One outside,

One inside

and one on the heatsink for the final amps.

The air outside had a curve as expected.

The "AIR" inside probe but not touching anything, was somewhat surprising. it had a very similar curve as the outside curve, it was just about 15 minutes behind, this was with 2" thick Styrofoam, with foil covering.

But the probe on the heat-sink when on the ground (with lots of dense air) would reach a max about 20 to 30 degrees above ambient temp.

But at altitude, WOW! The "AIR" temp in the payload could be well below zero. But the heatsink was was well above 100 deg, at times exceeding 140 degrees!

Because the heatsink only had radiation as a way to dump heat. And the payload being foil lined, any radiation that did escape the heat-sink was reflected back onto it.

Joe WB9SBD


On 5/3/2021 8:06 AM, Bruce Coates wrote:
Hi Michael

Another trick you can use is to pre-chill the outer cooler, and ideally run the entire experiment, inside a standard chest freezer.   On its coldest setting, that would get the external temperature you down to around -20c making it easier for the dry ice to further chill the interior. 

73, Bruce - VE5BNC
SABRE


Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Bruce Coates
 

Hi Michael

Another trick you can use is to pre-chill the outer cooler, and ideally run the entire experiment, inside a standard chest freezer.   On its coldest setting, that would get the external temperature you down to around -20c making it easier for the dry ice to further chill the interior. 

73, Bruce - VE5BNC
SABRE


Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Hank Riley
 

Mike,

Dennis and I are suggesting better contact of the dry ice with the payload than might have been accomplished.  (We don't know because you have not supplied that information)

As to the amount of dry ice, I have done a quick calc. based on a 12 inch cube (again, payload size is missing information).

Instead of me doing the middle school arithmetic for your students, I'd suggest you have them do this for themselves to determine if 8 pounds is enough to create a decent thickness (maybe an inch or more) surrounding at least 5 faces of the cube.

Surrounding the payload with a good layer of dry ice in good contact may not require the several hours of "soaking" I mentioned previously.

Hank


Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Dennis Klipa - N8ERF
 

As a research chemist, I used dry ice a lot to cool reactions to low temperatures,  -78°C.

I would suggest you set your payload in your cooler and then pour dry ice powder over it.

Dry ice comes in a block a couple inches or so thick as you know.  I would use a rubber mallet/hammer to break the block into a few large chunks and put the dry ice chunks into a heavy denim bag.  Gather the top of the bag and beat the dry ice chunks with the mallet.  The chunks will break up into a course powder resembling sleet that you can easily pour from the bag to surround and cover your your payload giving good contact with your payload  This should give you good heat transfer and a good test of your heater.  I am not sure 8 lbs will be enough, depending on the size of your payload and cooler.

Best Regards,
Dennis, N8ERF

On Mon, May 3, 2021, 1:35 AM Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
How big is that payload box if it's a snug fit inside the large cooler?   How was the CO2 distributed?  All just at the bottom of the cooler (not too good), or some against all four vertical surfaces of the payload and maybe over the top as well (best)?

Offhand it seems that just a hour might not be nearly enough to realize a decent low temp. of the sort desired.

Just to be concrete, I'd suggest trying something more like 4 to 8 hours.


Re: Dry Ice payload testing

Hank Riley
 

How big is that payload box if it's a snug fit inside the large cooler?   How was the CO2 distributed?  All just at the bottom of the cooler (not too good), or some against all four vertical surfaces of the payload and maybe over the top as well (best)?

Offhand it seems that just a hour might not be nearly enough to realize a decent low temp. of the sort desired.

Just to be concrete, I'd suggest trying something more like 4 to 8 hours.


Dry Ice payload testing

Michael Hojnowski
 

Hey Gang,

Does anyone have much experience in cold-testing payloads with dry ice?   A few students on our team tried to use dry ice for a test, and didn't have much luck.  The objective is to try and test the payload box in very cold exterior temperatures to see if the interior can be kept warm.  They have an experiment that won't tolerate cold very well.  The initial attempt was to use a small battery powered hand warmer (which has a thermostat to keep from getting too warm) inside the payload box to keep the temperature around 70f.  The "hoped for" outcome was that they would measure some very cold (-40ish) temps outside the payload box, but that the interior would remain toasty warm.   In practice, the test didn't work out so well.

I didn't see the test, but they apparently got 8 pounds of dry ice and put it in a large cooler.  They put the payload box in the cooler, and ran some thermocouples into the payload box and surrounding container.  The larger cooler was a snug fit around the payload box.

They left it closed for an hour, and the "outer cooler" temp only went down to about 7c.  Unfortunately, the payload box interior temp went down to just about the same during the test.  Apparently, the hand warmer failed at some point during the test.

They'd like to be able to create very cold conditions outside the payload box (colder than 7c) while they sort out the interior heating issue.

If anyone has some experience, war stories, or scars they can share, the team would appreciate it.

Thanks!
Mike


Re: This is how real men launch their balloons...

Michael Hojnowski
 

On 5/2/2021 10:04 AM, Steve G8KHW / AJ4XE wrote:

What do you US guys call that style of launch - I've heard "hail mary" in the past - is that it?  Not sure why?

I guess that's a running hail mary?

    Steve G8KHW
Kids today would probably call that a "Yeet!"  hehe

Mike / KD2EAT

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