Re: Burst altitude

Joe WB9SBD

Hi Steve,

Thanks for making the confirmation on my calculations. I was amazed that that little balloon granted with no work to do could reach as high as it was calculating to be.  I was close, I was about 2K higher.

BUT we and I do not know why, but our Lift provided by H2 per volume is slightly different. And thus the difference in burst altitude.

I have been using oz per cuft.  with yours numbers that comes out to 1.184153533..... oz per cuft.

For decades I have been using a number that I came up with in the 1980's as 1.216 oz per cuft.
I honestly do not know where that number came from. It's been 30+ years!

Thanks for confirming my calculations.

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 9/6/2020 4:40 AM, Steve G8KHW / AJ4XE wrote:

Hi Joe - Assuming this is not a trick question (if a balloon is neutrally buoyant it won't ascend - so won't ever burst).  Assuming you mean if something else was pulling it up:

The 100g Kaymont (KCI-100) is a re-badged Totex TA-100 and has a burst diameter of 1.96m (6.4ft) and an average weight of 100g

Ignoring the constraining effects of the latex increasing pressure at fill:

A 100g balloon will need 100g of lift to make it neutrally buoyant.

Pure H2 gives a lift of 1.18552 g/L         (Air 1.225 g/L  less H2's  0.08988 g/L both STP)

hence requiring 100/1.18552 = 84.3511707L = 0.0843511707 cu m = 2.978833cu ft of H2 to make it neutrally buoyant.

0.0843511707 cu m of Hydrogen will have a mass of 7.58148g  ( 84.3511707L * 0.08988 g/L)

the overall mass will be 100g  +  7.58148 = 107.58148g

Assuming a sphere at burst the TA-100 will have a volume of 2.217631 cu m (4/3 Pi r^3)

so for neutral buoyancy the question comes down to at what altitude does 2.217631 cu m displace 107.58148g of air

or at what altitude does air density become 48.51189g / cu m  (107.58148 / 2.217631)

using the NASA 1960s air density model that gives an altitude of about 23.85Km (78100ft)

Hope that helps

Steve G8KHW / AJ4XE

0.0843511707 cu m at STP become 2.217631 cu m - a ratio of 1:26.29046

using the NASA air density model that gives an altitude of 22.3Km (73144ft)

What this doesn't account for is the pressure increase due to the elastic tension of the envelope

On 06/09/2020 03:18, Joe WB9SBD wrote:
It has been a LONG LONG time since I have calculated a burst altitude.

Let me see if I am STILL doing it correctly..

I did a calculation on a tiny 100 gram Kamont balloon.

Now i know in theroy this won't work.

But fill it with H2, so it is neutral buoyant.

With those paramaters. what altitude would it pop at?

Joe WB9SBD

 Virus-free. www.avg.com

Re: Burst altitude

Steve G8KHW / AJ4XE

Hi Joe - Assuming this is not a trick question (if a balloon is neutrally buoyant it won't ascend - so won't ever burst).  Assuming you mean if something else was pulling it up:

The 100g Kaymont (KCI-100) is a re-badged Totex TA-100 and has a burst diameter of 1.96m (6.4ft) and an average weight of 100g

Ignoring the constraining effects of the latex increasing pressure at fill:

A 100g balloon will need 100g of lift to make it neutrally buoyant.

Pure H2 gives a lift of 1.18552 g/L         (Air 1.225 g/L  less H2's  0.08988 g/L both STP)

hence requiring 100/1.18552 = 84.3511707L = 0.0843511707 cu m = 2.978833cu ft of H2 to make it neutrally buoyant.

0.0843511707 cu m of Hydrogen will have a mass of 7.58148g  ( 84.3511707L * 0.08988 g/L)

the overall mass will be 100g  +  7.58148 = 107.58148g

Assuming a sphere at burst the TA-100 will have a volume of 2.217631 cu m (4/3 Pi r^3)

so for neutral buoyancy the question comes down to at what altitude does 2.217631 cu m displace 107.58148g of air

or at what altitude does air density become 48.51189g / cu m  (107.58148 / 2.217631)

using the NASA 1960s air density model that gives an altitude of about 23.85Km (78100ft)

Hope that helps

Steve G8KHW / AJ4XE

0.0843511707 cu m at STP become 2.217631 cu m - a ratio of 1:26.29046

using the NASA air density model that gives an altitude of 22.3Km (73144ft)

What this doesn't account for is the pressure increase due to the elastic tension of the envelope

On 06/09/2020 03:18, Joe WB9SBD wrote:
It has been a LONG LONG time since I have calculated a burst altitude.

Let me see if I am STILL doing it correctly..

I did a calculation on a tiny 100 gram Kamont balloon.

Now i know in theroy this won't work.

But fill it with H2, so it is neutral buoyant.

With those paramaters. what altitude would it pop at?

Joe WB9SBD

 Virus-free. www.avg.com

Burst altitude

Joe WB9SBD

It has been a LONG LONG time since I have calculated a burst altitude.

Let me see if I am STILL doing it correctly..

I did a calculation on a tiny 100 gram Kamont balloon.

Now i know in theroy this won't work.

But fill it with H2, so it is neutral buoyant.

With those paramaters. what altitude would it pop at?

Joe WB9SBD

Barry

Looks just like the one I have.

For those that may be interested, the bunched up wire seen lower left is the long 100KHz Loran receive antenna that would be unbunched and trail below the sonde once it was launched.

Barry
VE6SBS

From: GPSL@groups.io [mailto:GPSL@groups.io] On Behalf Of James Ewen VE6SRV
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2020 3:43 PM
To: GPSL@groups.io

Look what I just found in the garage!

Hoarding 101. That sonde was picked up before the turn of the century!

We get to sound like old geezers now!

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 3:17 PM Barry <barry2@...> wrote:

I read that there was now software on the web to decode sondes, but not for the sondes used the last time I checked, but the rumor was that they would be changing to the GPS sondes in a few years and if that’s the case – great. The old sondes also used the 403 MHz band and transmitted a very wide bandwidth FM signal  (about 20 MHz I believe). You could RDF the signal using a narrow bandwidth amateur radio receiver but they were not very frequency stable so one had to keep tuning 5MHz up and down the band for the strongest signal. I actually bought a HT with a wide band FM setting to use which made tuning much less of a problem but for position information the old sondes simply rebroadcast received LORAN signals by AM modulating the sondes 403MHz carrier. This meant to decode the sondes position you would also need an AM receiver and a commercial LORAN receiver. A very complicated expensive system so RDF was our only option when James and I used to try and find them. LORAN was turned off in 2010 so I’m guessing you’re right and EC is now using GPS sondes.

Just saw Grahams message – Thanks Graham, I was just about to call EC and ask them which sond is being used now.

Barry
VE6SBS

From: GPSL@groups.io [mailto:GPSL@groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Conner N9XTN
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2020 11:46 AM
To: GPSL@groups.io

James,

It appears EC is now using GPS sondes, and the radiosonde_auto_rx software (which can be run on an RPi) should be able to decode positions if not the full telemetry stream.  If they work like the LMS-6 sondes the NWS uses, you'll have position reports at 1-sec intervals.

Here's an example of one decoded by a station near Ottawa this morning:

Frequency band used is ~403 MHz.

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:52 AM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James

VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:

James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James

VE6SRV

--

James
VE6SRV

James Ewen VE6SRV

Look what I just found in the garage!

Hoarding 101. That sonde was picked up before the turn of the century!

We get to sound like old geezers now!

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 3:17 PM Barry <barry2@...> wrote:

I read that there was now software on the web to decode sondes, but not for the sondes used the last time I checked, but the rumor was that they would be changing to the GPS sondes in a few years and if that’s the case – great. The old sondes also used the 403 MHz band and transmitted a very wide bandwidth FM signal  (about 20 MHz I believe). You could RDF the signal using a narrow bandwidth amateur radio receiver but they were not very frequency stable so one had to keep tuning 5MHz up and down the band for the strongest signal. I actually bought a HT with a wide band FM setting to use which made tuning much less of a problem but for position information the old sondes simply rebroadcast received LORAN signals by AM modulating the sondes 403MHz carrier. This meant to decode the sondes position you would also need an AM receiver and a commercial LORAN receiver. A very complicated expensive system so RDF was our only option when James and I used to try and find them. LORAN was turned off in 2010 so I’m guessing you’re right and EC is now using GPS sondes.

Just saw Grahams message – Thanks Graham, I was just about to call EC and ask them which sond is being used now.

Barry
VE6SBS

From: GPSL@groups.io [mailto:GPSL@groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Conner N9XTN
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2020 11:46 AM
To: GPSL@groups.io

James,

It appears EC is now using GPS sondes, and the radiosonde_auto_rx software (which can be run on an RPi) should be able to decode positions if not the full telemetry stream.  If they work like the LMS-6 sondes the NWS uses, you'll have position reports at 1-sec intervals.

Here's an example of one decoded by a station near Ottawa this morning:

Frequency band used is ~403 MHz.

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:52 AM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James

VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:

James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James

VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

Barry

I read that there was now software on the web to decode sondes, but not for the sondes used the last time I checked, but the rumor was that they would be changing to the GPS sondes in a few years and if that’s the case – great. The old sondes also used the 403 MHz band and transmitted a very wide bandwidth FM signal  (about 20 MHz I believe). You could RDF the signal using a narrow bandwidth amateur radio receiver but they were not very frequency stable so one had to keep tuning 5MHz up and down the band for the strongest signal. I actually bought a HT with a wide band FM setting to use which made tuning much less of a problem but for position information the old sondes simply rebroadcast received LORAN signals by AM modulating the sondes 403MHz carrier. This meant to decode the sondes position you would also need an AM receiver and a commercial LORAN receiver. A very complicated expensive system so RDF was our only option when James and I used to try and find them. LORAN was turned off in 2010 so I’m guessing you’re right and EC is now using GPS sondes.

Just saw Grahams message – Thanks Graham, I was just about to call EC and ask them which sond is being used now.

Barry
VE6SBS

From: GPSL@groups.io [mailto:GPSL@groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Conner N9XTN
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2020 11:46 AM
To: GPSL@groups.io

James,

It appears EC is now using GPS sondes, and the radiosonde_auto_rx software (which can be run on an RPi) should be able to decode positions if not the full telemetry stream.  If they work like the LMS-6 sondes the NWS uses, you'll have position reports at 1-sec intervals.

Here's an example of one decoded by a station near Ottawa this morning:

Frequency band used is ~403 MHz.

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:52 AM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James

VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:

James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James

VE6SRV

Graham

Environment Canada has been using the Grau DFM-06 radiosondes for some time.

The Canadian Military also uses radiosondes and I have noted Vaisala RS41 being launched from Petawawa, Ontario but these launches are infrequent.

Both can be decoded as Mark noted using the radiosonde_auto_rx software and can also be decoded using the Sondemonitor software.

cheers, Graham ve3gtc

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 5:46 PM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:
James,

It appears EC is now using GPS sondes, and the radiosonde_auto_rx software (which can be run on an RPi) should be able to decode positions if not the full telemetry stream.  If they work like the LMS-6 sondes the NWS uses, you'll have position reports at 1-sec intervals.

Here's an example of one decoded by a station near Ottawa this morning:

Frequency band used is ~403 MHz.

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:52 AM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:
Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James
VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:
James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James
VE6SRV

Mark Conner N9XTN

James,

It appears EC is now using GPS sondes, and the radiosonde_auto_rx software (which can be run on an RPi) should be able to decode positions if not the full telemetry stream.  If they work like the LMS-6 sondes the NWS uses, you'll have position reports at 1-sec intervals.

Here's an example of one decoded by a station near Ottawa this morning:

Frequency band used is ~403 MHz.

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:52 AM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:
Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James
VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:
James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James
VE6SRV

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

James Ewen VE6SRV

Mark,

Carvel is the closest upper air sounding station. Before we launched our first balloon, we went for a tour of the station and saw how they filled and launched their balloons. We based our first fill device off of their design.

We then chased and recovered a number of radiosondes. We had just moved into Sherwood Park, and my neighbors discovered they had a crazy neighbor early.

I would be standing on the front lawn waving a UHF yogi at the sky, and then every few days, I would lay on the lawn staring at the sky with binoculars. Burst was observed visually as there was no way to decode telemetry.

I learnt how to judge where the radiosonde would land based on where the balloon burst overhead. I was picky and only chased the ones that burst almost at my zenith. That meant they would land about 5 to 6 miles east of me. Burst west of my zenith meant a shorter drive, and deviations north or south of my zenith meant a north or south recovery.

You needed to know where the sonde would land fairly precisely as the radio signal on the ground would only propagate about a mile or so.

Toughest recovery was just a few miles south of us. We got to the area and could hear the sonde. Chased it down to a cow pasture behind a house, but the signal seemed to be moving on us. It ended up that the lift line got tangled around one cow’s leg,  and the sonde was going for a tour as the cow grazed. As luck would have it, cows are curious, and the herd came to see what these silly people were doing in the next field over. Serendipity helped as the tangled line came free as the transport cow decided we were not that interesting after all.

James
VE6SRV

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 7:30 AM Mark Conner N9XTN <mconner1@...> wrote:
James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Mark Conner N9XTN

James - not sure where you're located relative to any Environment Canada upper-air sites, but you could build a radiosonde ground station and chase those!

73 de Mark N9XTN

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:24 PM James Ewen VE6SRV <ve6srv@...> wrote:

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James
VE6SRV

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

James Ewen VE6SRV

I would have arm wrestled him for the chance to go up. Do you think we can find a sponsor to pay for the balloons and hydrogen? I’m not wasting money on helium.

I’ve watched a number of jumps from hot air balloons. They say it’s a weird feeling to be starting from a stand still. Jumping from a plane, you’re jumping into a moving air mass. Even from a helicopter in a hover, there’s a lot of air moving downward in a hurry. From a balloon, you are basically at zero airspeed as you are drifting along with the wind.

If someone said “We need a crash test dummy to drop out a balloon”, I’d have my hand up in a flash.

There were probably a number of things that I missed on the first watch. There’s lots that I didn’t comment on in the previous email.

There haven’t been any balloons to chase around here with this silly pandemic. I’m getting bored!

James
VE6SRV

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 7:41 PM Tony Rafaat <trafaat@...> wrote:
James, you should have been on his ground crew.  You certainly brought up some sensible points.

Be well.
Tony
VA6TNY

From: "James Ewen VE6SRV" <ve6srv@...>
To: GPSL@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, 3 September, 2020 18:34:07
Subject: Re: [GPSL] David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Which concluding part of the stunt? The helicopter ride back to the airport?

I would happily have taken his place. That would be a bucket list thing for me. If he had chickened out and I was on site, I would have told him to go hit the showers and would have grabbed on and been ready to go!

He was suffering from hypoxia just before going on oxygen. Trying to be a tough guy and making it to 20k before giving in. He was arguing saying he was fine, but he was getting giddy. As soon as he got on O2, his manner changed immediately.

Lots of banter back and forth about what to do next, all involved should have had everything down pat.

Dropping of sand bags from altitude is considered bombing. They should have used sandbags that could be opened and the ballast dropped. No chance of hitting something on the ground, and no need to recover the dropped ballast.

No one could understand the difference between altitude and rate of climb.

Upon release, it looked like he just fell in a stable arch, he should have been tracking back to the LZ. 3 miles from 25,000 feet should have been an easy return. I’ve covered a 2 mile track from 9,500.

Asking if there are power lines by a road, and having ground support say “I can’t make any out on the image from your chest camera.” is pretty damned stupid. They should have had maps and already understood the obstructions in the area, both jumper and ground crew. The jumper has better visual than anything from a GoPro.

Ground winds should have been understood. Anyone having flown under a steerable canopy knows how to look for ground wind tell tale signs. They also know to do a 360 before getting set up for landing to look for wind drift.

The jumper did a poor job of choosing a landing area. He landed on some pretty rough terrain, and had to really run out the landing because he ended up in a downwind landing.

Overall, the jump was successful, he was able to float up to altitude under a bunch of balloons. He was able to successfully *almost* miss the ground, the end goal of any skydive.

Like just about anything you watch on TV, if you know nothing about the subject of the program, it can be entertaining and very impressive.

When you are familiar with the subject matter however, you can usually find at least a handful of errors or problems.

One day if I’m really bored I might watch the fluff before lift off. I only watched from when they walked him from the fill area to the end.

James
VE6SRV

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:15 PM Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

It happened yesterday in Page, AZ.  He reached ~ 24,900 feet ASL before cutting loose.

Curious if any skydivers are on list and would like to comment on that concluding part of the stunt.

Hank

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Tony Rafaat

James, you should have been on his ground crew.  You certainly brought up some sensible points.

Be well.
Tony
VA6TNY

From: "James Ewen VE6SRV" <ve6srv@...>
To: GPSL@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, 3 September, 2020 18:34:07
Subject: Re: [GPSL] David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Which concluding part of the stunt? The helicopter ride back to the airport?

I would happily have taken his place. That would be a bucket list thing for me. If he had chickened out and I was on site, I would have told him to go hit the showers and would have grabbed on and been ready to go!

He was suffering from hypoxia just before going on oxygen. Trying to be a tough guy and making it to 20k before giving in. He was arguing saying he was fine, but he was getting giddy. As soon as he got on O2, his manner changed immediately.

Lots of banter back and forth about what to do next, all involved should have had everything down pat.

Dropping of sand bags from altitude is considered bombing. They should have used sandbags that could be opened and the ballast dropped. No chance of hitting something on the ground, and no need to recover the dropped ballast.

No one could understand the difference between altitude and rate of climb.

Upon release, it looked like he just fell in a stable arch, he should have been tracking back to the LZ. 3 miles from 25,000 feet should have been an easy return. I’ve covered a 2 mile track from 9,500.

Asking if there are power lines by a road, and having ground support say “I can’t make any out on the image from your chest camera.” is pretty damned stupid. They should have had maps and already understood the obstructions in the area, both jumper and ground crew. The jumper has better visual than anything from a GoPro.

Ground winds should have been understood. Anyone having flown under a steerable canopy knows how to look for ground wind tell tale signs. They also know to do a 360 before getting set up for landing to look for wind drift.

The jumper did a poor job of choosing a landing area. He landed on some pretty rough terrain, and had to really run out the landing because he ended up in a downwind landing.

Overall, the jump was successful, he was able to float up to altitude under a bunch of balloons. He was able to successfully *almost* miss the ground, the end goal of any skydive.

Like just about anything you watch on TV, if you know nothing about the subject of the program, it can be entertaining and very impressive.

When you are familiar with the subject matter however, you can usually find at least a handful of errors or problems.

One day if I’m really bored I might watch the fluff before lift off. I only watched from when they walked him from the fill area to the end.

James
VE6SRV

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:15 PM Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

It happened yesterday in Page, AZ.  He reached ~ 24,900 feet ASL before cutting loose.

Curious if any skydivers are on list and would like to comment on that concluding part of the stunt.

Hank

--
James
VE6SRV

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Hank Riley

"Curious if any skydivers are on list and would like to comment on that concluding part of the stunt."

Identification of the concluding part is left as an exercise for the reader.   Hint:  S*Y*IVE.    :)
____________________________________________________________________________

On Thursday, September 3, 2020, 08:34:22 PM EDT, James wrote:

Which concluding part of the stunt? The helicopter ride back to the airport?

Re: David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

James Ewen VE6SRV

Which concluding part of the stunt? The helicopter ride back to the airport?

I would happily have taken his place. That would be a bucket list thing for me. If he had chickened out and I was on site, I would have told him to go hit the showers and would have grabbed on and been ready to go!

He was suffering from hypoxia just before going on oxygen. Trying to be a tough guy and making it to 20k before giving in. He was arguing saying he was fine, but he was getting giddy. As soon as he got on O2, his manner changed immediately.

Lots of banter back and forth about what to do next, all involved should have had everything down pat.

Dropping of sand bags from altitude is considered bombing. They should have used sandbags that could be opened and the ballast dropped. No chance of hitting something on the ground, and no need to recover the dropped ballast.

No one could understand the difference between altitude and rate of climb.

Upon release, it looked like he just fell in a stable arch, he should have been tracking back to the LZ. 3 miles from 25,000 feet should have been an easy return. I’ve covered a 2 mile track from 9,500.

Asking if there are power lines by a road, and having ground support say “I can’t make any out on the image from your chest camera.” is pretty damned stupid. They should have had maps and already understood the obstructions in the area, both jumper and ground crew. The jumper has better visual than anything from a GoPro.

Ground winds should have been understood. Anyone having flown under a steerable canopy knows how to look for ground wind tell tale signs. They also know to do a 360 before getting set up for landing to look for wind drift.

The jumper did a poor job of choosing a landing area. He landed on some pretty rough terrain, and had to really run out the landing because he ended up in a downwind landing.

Overall, the jump was successful, he was able to float up to altitude under a bunch of balloons. He was able to successfully *almost* miss the ground, the end goal of any skydive.

Like just about anything you watch on TV, if you know nothing about the subject of the program, it can be entertaining and very impressive.

When you are familiar with the subject matter however, you can usually find at least a handful of errors or problems.

One day if I’m really bored I might watch the fluff before lift off. I only watched from when they walked him from the fill area to the end.

James
VE6SRV

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:15 PM Hank Riley via groups.io <n1ltv=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

It happened yesterday in Page, AZ.  He reached ~ 24,900 feet ASL before cutting loose.

Curious if any skydivers are on list and would like to comment on that concluding part of the stunt.

Hank

--
James
VE6SRV

David Blaine rises to ~ 20,000 feet AGL hanging under a cluster of 52 latex balloons

Hank Riley

It happened yesterday in Page, AZ.  He reached ~ 24,900 feet ASL before cutting loose.

Curious if any skydivers are on list and would like to comment on that concluding part of the stunt.

Hank

Fun Story.

Keith Kaiser, WA0̷TJT

Re: Are there any HAB Clubs/organizations or activities in Missouri?

Jason Unwin

Thank you.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:16, Carlton Corbitt via groups.io
<ccccrnr@...> wrote:
Hi Jason,

The question of are the Balloon groups in Missouri is a YES,  but if the question was are there very active HAB groups... maybe not so much

check

# The Space Balloon Club on facebook

that is a group in St Louis that is probably the most active in the state of MO.

Keith Keiser and others in Kansas City, MO did HAB balloons, but have mostly slowed down to doing them at Boy Scout Jamboree's

RoboMo - the st louis robotics club use to do them, but due to job changes and death among the primary HABer's hasn't done a flight in a while.

There is also a 4H club in Columbia MO that was focusing on space and STEM education a number of years ago, that released balloons and needed people to help chase down and return their projects.  But I haven't heard of them releasing any balloons in a few years.

Missouri may have other Near Space groups i don't know about as well.   However with the covid pandemic i suspect most groups are on hold for now.

Carlton
KI4NHK

Re: Are there any HAB Clubs/organizations or activities in Missouri?

Carlton Corbitt

Hi Jason,

The question of are the Balloon groups in Missouri is a YES,  but if the question was are there very active HAB groups... maybe not so much

check

# The Space Balloon Club on facebook

that is a group in St Louis that is probably the most active in the state of MO.

Keith Keiser and others in Kansas City, MO did HAB balloons, but have mostly slowed down to doing them at Boy Scout Jamboree's

RoboMo - the st louis robotics club use to do them, but due to job changes and death among the primary HABer's hasn't done a flight in a while.

There is also a 4H club in Columbia MO that was focusing on space and STEM education a number of years ago, that released balloons and needed people to help chase down and return their projects.  But I haven't heard of them releasing any balloons in a few years.

Missouri may have other Near Space groups i don't know about as well.   However with the covid pandemic i suspect most groups are on hold for now.

Carlton
KI4NHK

Are there any HAB Clubs/organizations or activities in Missouri?

Jason Unwin

I was looking at the ARHAB page for clubs and organizations that do HAB. Evidently it is not up to date.  I am moving to Missouri in the next few months to either the Sedalia or Lincoln MO area. I have helped in recovery teams with EOSS, PARK and Stratocasters down in Texas. I was at GPSL when it was in Texas a few years ago. Oklahoma doesn't seem to have anything going on. Our CAP squadron "hitched rides" on PARK flights.

If there are any people that fly in Missouri, I would like to work with them.

Jason Unwin
KF5UEF

Re: calculate elevation

Michael Hojnowski

What's your preferred programing language.  I suspect their are Perl and Python one-liners that'll do that if you include the right library.

Mike

On 8/23/2020 1:23 PM, Joe WB9SBD wrote:

geez 20+ years ago I had a .BAS program where if I put into it my lat/long/alt, and a second lat/long/alt it would spit out a az and el of where the balloon would be in my sky.

is there a way to do this nowdays?

I have a project loon balloon coming towards me and want to try to spot it later.

Joe WB9SBD

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