Re: Logo

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>

Paul is doing the vast majority of the work to put GPSL-2002 together so I
will bow deeply to him and accept this motto.

However, we should understand how unusual it is to reach 100,000ft. In the
process of collecting data for discussions about Mean Zonal Winds
(http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/MZW.html) and Ascent Rate Variations
(http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/ASCENT.html) you folks sent me a lot of
flight data for missions past. For Mean Zonal Winds I accepted mission data
from before and after SA was turned off on 02May00 and we have a total of 54
missions in the study. Only 4 of those missions went above 100,000ft which
is 7.4%.

For analysis of Ascent Rate Variations I only used data from missions after
SA was turned off. There were a total of 28 missions in the study of which
only 2 went above 100,000ft. Again, that is 7.1%. This indicates we are
not flying higher as time goes by.

It appears we should not be overselling our collective ability to make it to
100,000ft because it happens less than 1 flight out of 10.

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
Results may not be reproducible

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:13 AM
Subject: [GPSL] Logo

I've designed a logo for GPSL but arranged to leave the diskette at
home. I'll post it tomorrow. I'd like the motto for this year's GPSL
to be, "100,000 feet. Been There, Done That".

Paul

re 500 mile flight

K. Mark Caviezel

I'll just leave the proposal on the table, see if we
form a critical mass to move this project forward.
My goal is not to break the distance record, but
rather to navigate a balloon to within a reasonable
radius of a desired target far away. Denver-
Manhattan seems do-able technically, but clearly ATC

- KMC

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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Logo

paul.verhage@...

I've designed a logo for GPSL but arranged to leave the diskette at
home. I'll post it tomorrow. I'd like the motto for this year's GPSL
to be, "100,000 feet. Been There, Done That".

Paul

Re: 500 mile flight (II)

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>

All of these "around-the-world" attempts were flying in the busy 15-35kft
altitude range but they were using altitude encoded radar transponders and
in constant communication with air traffic control. ATC could always
identify them on radar and vectored more maneuverable aircraft away from
them. In my opinion, these manned flights are not reasonable operational
models for much less significant unmanned missions.

It is possible to fly a transponder, even with encoding, in an unmanned high
altitude payload but they are expensive, ~\$2,000, and they use a lot of
power. It is my general impression that without a transponder and constant
communications with ATC, the FAA would consider an unmanned balloon cruising
at 15-35kft to be derelict and a threat to air navigation.

Summer winds aloft above 60kft would not be useful for a west-to-east
flight. If we want to fly during the summer above controlled air space
(above 60kft) we would have to go east-to-west at a much slower speed of
4-8m/s (7-15kts, 9-18mph). A record breaking 710 mile flight would
therefore take 710/13.5 = ~52 hours which is far two long for an amateur
zero pressure mission. (This MZW-derived estimate compares nicely with
NASA/NSBF missions in August 2000 from south central Iowa to southeastern
Nebraska, roughly 200 miles in 16 hours, averaging 12.5mph.)

Timing this mission for GPSL-2003 would be a problem because attendees are
already completely scheduled with a busy symposium and multiple flight
schedule. There would be very little, if any, time available for attendees
to participate in a complicated long-duration long-haul mission.

All of this takes me back to a west-to-east 60-80kft mission during the
winter. Ascent and descent would be in controlled airspace but only for an
hour each. The roughly 24 hour cruise would be above controlled air space
so a transponder and constant ATC contact would not be required. It is easy
to imagine a payload of two <6-pound packages, including ballast dumping, so
the flight would be exempt.

A winter flight would allow the eastern recovery troops to dedicate a
weekend to the mission while driving long distances to be in the right place
at the right time for descent and touchdown. Home stations at intermediate
distances, spaced ~200 miles apart, could capture telemetry and report their
observations. They could also be equipped for an "emergency" cutdown
command if system failure allowed descent into controlled air space.

It is reasonable to believe that a recovery team can be put together at this
end (Iowa, Illinois, et al.), that intermediate stations can be recruited
for any possible flight track, and that winds aloft data and track
prediction processes are dependable. I believe this can be done and safely.

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
Optimal solutions do not always exist

500 mile flight (II)

K. Mark Caviezel

Yes, I am appraised that the 30-40k feet altitude I
mention is 'right in the middle of the jetways', but I
recently read "Around the World in 20 days" by
Bertrand Piccard and Brian Smith, the team that
circumnavigated the Earth in 1999 in a big Rozier
balloon. Most all of thier flight was 15-35k feet
altitude. Yes, air traffic control was an issue
(particularly border crossings), but it was an issue
that they surmounted within the rules of all the
countries they flew over.
The winter winds in general from altitudes 10k feet to
80k feet are good for a flight from here in Denver to
locations east of here, but GPSL is in the summer, and
my knowledge of summer winds over Denver put a cap of
about 50k feet for a balloon wanting to go from here
to there.

The basic issues are:
a). balloon vehicle capable of float, multiple
altitudes desireable (I can do this)
b). telemetry, control, termination. All this has
been done on EOSS flights and "ES-OS" flights.
c). flight prediction/flight management. Similar to
what most balloon groups do for all flights anyways,
with a twist of long time aloft and significant
lateral travel over the ground.
d). "political issues" - FAA, responsible flight
with other users of aerial navigation. Piccard and
Smith did it, manned, in 1999 with a champagne budget,
I'd like to do it, unmanned, in 2002 with a "beer and
pizza" budget.

I am seeking help for those interested in helping on
c). and d). to see if we (the amatuer ballooning
community) can pull this off in a safe and successful
manner.

73s all - KMC KC0JHQ

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Re: 500 mile flight?

Don Pfister <ka0jlf@...>

Well in a month, I'll be crewing for the RAAM and will travel from Portland, OR
to Pensacola, FL basically non-stop. It took Fabio a little over 9 days to ride
the race a couple of years ago, hope to be faster this time. ;-)

http://www.ultracycling.com/events/raam.html
http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/

I could monitor it during the race. ;-)

73 Don

"Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" wrote:

The discussion of Mean Zonal Winds (MZW) at
http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/MZW.html helps us start planning toward
a long distance mission (but lets plan toward more than 703.02 miles to give
us a chance at breaking the SSOK/WB0DRL record - see
http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/RECORDS.html). MZW data includes mean
wind speed (m/s) at various altitudes but there is no directional component
other than westerly vs. easterly.

Topo Map

paul.verhage@...

Ralph, I'm planning to work on the GPSL logo again this weekend.
However, when I search my PC in the classroom, I can't find the
topo map you emailed. I may have it at home. But if I don't, then it
probably won't be until next week before I have access to email to
ask for the file. Can you email me the file again? I'll start a search
over the internet for a copy, just in case.

I plan for the logo be just like my first suggestion, but witht he topo

Paul

Re: 500 mile flight?

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>

The discussion of Mean Zonal Winds (MZW) at
http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/MZW.html helps us start planning toward
a long distance mission (but lets plan toward more than 703.02 miles to give
us a chance at breaking the SSOK/WB0DRL record - see
http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/RECORDS.html). MZW data includes mean
wind speed (m/s) at various altitudes but there is no directional component
other than westerly vs. easterly.

Referring to the data table for 40dN latitude and looking at winds between
60k and 80kft, we can see that December-January would be best for a west to
east flight. MZW velocity varies 10-18m/s (20-35kts) depending on altitude.
Based on these mean values and an average of 27.5kts (31.6mph), it would
take 704/31.6 = a little over 22-hours aloft to break the record.

Taking this MZW estimate up to 24-hours and 760 miles, the mission could be
launched late in the afternoon from the Denver area and recovered before
nightfall the following day. Touchdown would be somewhere on an arc running
through western Wisconsin, western and central Illinois and eastern Missouri
from Duluth, MN to Little Rock, AR. This is as close as we can predict this
far out but there would be significantly more precision during the final
days of preparations.

Winds aloft at lower altitudes are highly variable in both speed and
direction (hot air balloon distance record breaking attempts often wait
months, even years, for the right conditions, 10k-18kft) but they are
somewhat dependable within a season at higher altitudes. I say "somewhat
dependable" because our collective flight experience shows significant
variations in characteristics for flights in the same month (see MZW
discussion). EOSS-46 experienced easterlies above 60kft in January which
are totally unpredicted by MZW data while EOSS-53 in December matches the
MZW prediction almost perfectly.

Launching in the late afternoon would minimize helium loss from the
zero-pressure envelope due to solar heating during the early hours of the
mission. After sunrise solar heating would provide more lift helping keep
the balloon and payload above 60kft and controlled airspace until flight
termination. Precision track predictions in the last few days before flight
would allow the recovery crew to position themselves appropriately,
southeastern Missouri to west central Wisconsin.

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
Component cost is not the same thing as system cost

----- Original Message -----
From: K. Mark Caviezel <kmcaviezel@yahoo.com>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 11:39 AM
Subject: [GPSL] 500 mile flight?

All:
It's been an idea of mine to launch a zero-pressure
balloon from here in Denver, and float it low (30-40k
feet probably) from here to Manhattan KS, about 500
miles east of here. I keep bringing it up at the
EOSS meetings, but the idea just hasn't caught on.
Some rudimentary navigation could be possible with
ballast dump. If anyone on this list wants to assist
in looking at historical winds and coming up with a
flight plan (something like- float at A feet until you
get to X,Y, then dump ballast and ascend to B feet to
take the balloon into the Manhattan KS vicinity), I
would take this info into account to design and build
the balloon and flight systems. If the 'cruise
float' is around 30k feet, I should be able to
maintain direct line of site control over the balloon
to 300+ miles out if I drive up to 14+k feet on Mount
Evans (or Pike's Peak) immediately after launch, then
do a hand-over to a team on the ground in Manhattan.

Any interest ?

- KMC

Re: 500 mile flight?

Don Pfister <ka0jlf@...>

The main thing that hits me about your idea is, the altitude you are talking is
right in the jetways. I don't think you would get clearance for a flight plan
like that. I think you would be better served flying above 60K ft.

73 Don

"K. Mark Caviezel" wrote:

All:
It's been an idea of mine to launch a zero-pressure
balloon from here in Denver, and float it low (30-40k
feet probably) from here to Manhattan KS, about 500
miles east of here. I keep bringing it up at the
EOSS meetings, but the idea just hasn't caught on.
Some rudimentary navigation could be possible with
ballast dump. If anyone on this list wants to assist
in looking at historical winds and coming up with a
flight plan (something like- float at A feet until you
get to X,Y, then dump ballast and ascend to B feet to
take the balloon into the Manhattan KS vicinity), I
would take this info into account to design and build
the balloon and flight systems. If the 'cruise
float' is around 30k feet, I should be able to
maintain direct line of site control over the balloon
to 300+ miles out if I drive up to 14+k feet on Mount
Evans (or Pike's Peak) immediately after launch, then
do a hand-over to a team on the ground in Manhattan.

Any interest ?

- KMC
--

[Signature File]
Name=Don Pfister KA0JLF
HABITAT SkyLab
(High Altitude Basic Investigation Testing And Tracking)

http://habitat.netlab.org

500 mile flight?

K. Mark Caviezel

All:
It's been an idea of mine to launch a zero-pressure
balloon from here in Denver, and float it low (30-40k
feet probably) from here to Manhattan KS, about 500
miles east of here. I keep bringing it up at the
EOSS meetings, but the idea just hasn't caught on.
Some rudimentary navigation could be possible with
ballast dump. If anyone on this list wants to assist
in looking at historical winds and coming up with a
flight plan (something like- float at A feet until you
get to X,Y, then dump ballast and ascend to B feet to
take the balloon into the Manhattan KS vicinity), I
would take this info into account to design and build
the balloon and flight systems. If the 'cruise
float' is around 30k feet, I should be able to
maintain direct line of site control over the balloon
to 300+ miles out if I drive up to 14+k feet on Mount
Evans (or Pike's Peak) immediately after launch, then
do a hand-over to a team on the ground in Manhattan.

Any interest ?

- KMC

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Re: 500 mile flight?

paul.verhage@...

I like the idea.
I assume recovery crews here would send a series of DTMF tones
to terminate the flight?

One concern is the altitude of the flight. 30-40k feet will keep the
balloon in the jetways. Will a high altitude work? I imagine ti
would take two days to get to Manhattan.

Paul

All:
It's been an idea of mine to launch a zero-pressure
balloon from here in Denver, and float it low (30-40k
feet probably) from here to Manhattan KS, about 500
miles east of here. I keep bringing it up at the
EOSS meetings, but the idea just hasn't caught on.
Some rudimentary navigation could be possible with
ballast dump. If anyone on this list wants to assist
in looking at historical winds and coming up with a
flight plan (something like- float at A feet until you
get to X,Y, then dump ballast and ascend to B feet to
take the balloon into the Manhattan KS vicinity), I
would take this info into account to design and build
the balloon and flight systems. If the 'cruise
float' is around 30k feet, I should be able to
maintain direct line of site control over the balloon
to 300+ miles out if I drive up to 14+k feet on Mount
Evans (or Pike's Peak) immediately after launch, then
do a hand-over to a team on the ground in Manhattan.

Re: GPSL Proceedings

Ralph Wallio, W0RPK <wallio@...>

Paul,

A less than timely response. My intent is to use our records listing as the
backbone of my discussion paper. I will add my comments to each category
and encourage attendees to contribute their thoughts during the discussion.
The paper will then be amended with contributions from others and published
in my web pages for the amusement and amazement of both of my readers . . .

I will cooperate with your schedule to make the initial paper available for
a printed proceedings. Given electronic copies of other papers, I could
also (as I say in our GPSL web page) create a more comprehensive web
proceedings to be available to all comers (both of them) . . .

TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
wallio@crosspaths.net
http://members.crosspaths.net/wallio
No system should be more complicated than it need be

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: [GPSL] GPSL Proceedings

I need to know if presenters will have written notes for me to
publish. So far no presenter has given me notice. I'd like to make
a copy of every presenter's notes available to attendees. I'll take
care of the photocopying and binding.

Please let me know if you'll have notes for me to publish.

Paul

Re: Frequency coordination format.

Michael L. Bogard <kd0fw@...>

I will tracking mine the hard way using direction finding equipment like we used in the early 1990's for now. I had a offer from ka0jlf to do APRS but that will depend on the total weight of the payload.

Frequency coordination format.

Michael L. Bogard <kd0fw@...>

KCATVG - Kansas City Amateur Television Group

Frequency Summary
Name    Mode          Power   Frequency    Changeable?   * Notes
KD0FW   ATV            5 Watts 439.250 MHz  Crystal
KD0FW   Simplex Rptr   .100 MW 144.340 MHZ  Synthesized   ATV DX Simplex Calling Frequency.

Re: Frequency coordination format.

paul.verhage@...

Are you sending up a tracker or are you getting a lift from
someone? As far as the tracker, are you slotting your packets?
And also at what times?

Thanks,
Paul

KCATVG - Kansas City Amateur Television Group

Frequency Summary
Name Mode Power Frequency Changeable? * Notes
KD0FW ATV 5 Watts 439.250 MHz Crystal
KD0FW Simplex Rptr .100 MW 144.340 MHZ Synthesized ATV DX Simplex Calling Frequency.

Re: Frequency Coordination Format

mgray@...

ANSR - Arizona Near Space Research

Frequency Summary
Name Mode Power Frequency Changeable?
KD7LMO-11 APRS 500mW 445.950 MHz Synthesized 420-450
KD7LMO-11 Repeater In --- 145.560 MHz Synthesized 144-148
KD7LMO-11 Repeater Out 5W 445.525 MHz Synthesized 430-450MHz

KD7LMO-11, APRS Beacon
\$GPGGA, \$GPRMC, and plain text status '>' sent via GATE,WIDE3-3
Alternating every 30 seconds, no carrier detect/DCD
445.950 MHz, synthesized 420-450MHz

KD7LMO-11, Cross band repeater, remote commanding (cut down),
flight data recorder, telemetry, redundant APRS
In: 145.560 MHz w/162.2 Hz PL tone, synthesized 144-148MHz
Out: 445.525 MHz (5 watts), synthesized 430-450MHz

Rev. 13 May 2002

Frequency Coordination Format

paul.verhage@...

Frequencies
Name Mode Power Frequency Changeable?
TVNSP Packet 340 mW 144.34 yes

Paul

Re: Frequency Coordination

mgray@...

I've made the requested changes to the file and changed the name to reflect
only the ANSR payloads. The file is in the Files section of the Yahoo
group page.

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started. If yopu don't mind, I'd like to forward that to Mark. We'll
add one more item to the list. We need to find out who can
change frequencies if there is a problem.

Paul
> Paul,
>
> Not sure if you saw my message from last week, but I already started
> the frequency list. It is posted in the Files sections. If you want
> Mark to track the frequencies, let me know and I'll assign the file
> to him.

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Frequency Coordination Format

paul.verhage@...

One o more item needs to be added to the frequency coordination
This won't be a problem for APRS, as we'll use the same
frequency. But repeaters and ATVer's can't use the same
frequency. We won't ask someone to change frequencies if their
transmitter is crystal controlled and can't be changed in time.

So the format looks like this....

Name Mode Power Frequency Changeable?

Options for Changeable are

Yes (as in having an HT with a tuning knob)
Some (as in using a crystal that you can reasonably switch out)
Not on your life (there's no realistic way to change your frequency
in the time allotted)

Paul

Re: Frequency Coordination

Mark Conner <n9xtn@...>

I can keep track of the various modes, frequencies, etc. I've
gotten some input from Mike KD0FW off-list for his payload(s). I
looked at KD7LMO's inputs in the files area.

I had previously suggested everyone having a slotted beacon on
144.34 MHz for mutual chase support if possible.

Also, when people submit their inputs, please indicate if you're
frequency-agile and to what extent (crystalled, VFO 70cm only,
VFO 2/70, etc). That will help us decide how much people can
compromise on their "favorite" frequencies should we need to make

I'm not sure if the egroups.com address will work - if not, the

73 de Mark N9XTN

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul.verhage@boiseschools.org>
To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 12:47
Subject: [GPSL] Frequency Coordination

Packet, ATV, and Repeaters, Oh My!

It looks like we're going to have more transmissions coming out
of
Manhattan on 6 July than NSA HQ. To prevent near space
capsules from stepping on each other, we'll start a table of
frequencies, powers, times, and modes.

I'll need a coordinator to keep track of this. Mark, can you
do that?
list.
Once the table is put together, it will go out to subscribers
for their
until after the final table it put together and emailed. After
that,
please look them over and look for potential problems.

To all program managers,
Please email current transmission information to
gpsl@egroups.com in this format.

Subject line for email: Frequency Plan

Program or capsule name
Mode Power Frequency Time

For example,

TVNSP
Packet 340mW 144.390 0, 15, 30, and 45 seconds

If you're flying a dual-band repeater, please post both
frequencies

In Manhattan, there's not a lot of APRS traffic.
Unfortunately, not
long after we launch, we'll run into traffic from KC. In KC
there's
lots of APRS traffic. So GPSL will move off the standard APRS
frequency (144.390). Mark suggested a frequency, but I managed
to lose it. I'll get back with you on the proper APRS
frequency.

Chase Frequencies
At the launch site and for what I think will be most of the
chase,
we'll use the Manhattan repeater. If we get close to Topeka or
Lawrence, we'll switch to one of their repeaters. A near space
repeater will be avaiable during the chase. We may go to
simplex
during portions of the recovery. I'll post the Topeka and
Lawrence
frequencies shortly. For simplex, I'd like select a 2m and 440
frequency that are easy to remember, perhaps the call-in
frequencies. Those too will be posted shortly.

Thanks,
Paul

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