Mac MR78 down to #36 of 40 in TIC shootout ...


force92ca
 

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

I think Charles Peterson once wrote here that he always wanted to
own a MR78 from a "younger" age. I guess I'm in the same boat, I now
own all McIntosh gear, and the only thing missing to complete my
main system is an MR78 tuna which I've oogled from my starving-
student days in college many years ago.

But with the MR78 prices being outrageous for quite some time, I've
resisted temptation. But now, a second nail in the coffin! The MR78
keeps on tumbling lower and lower in the shootout. I'm surprised
that it rates so low. OK - perhaps not desrving to be at the top -
but #36! I know, performance is all that matters, but how could
people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so long to command such a
premium price for it, let alone, its lofty reputation.

Some un-modded/serviced MR78s seem to be floating around now in the
$700 range ... are they still over-priced?


Jim <jim@fmtunerinfo.com>
 

Try to borrow one locally. If you like the way it sounds in your
system then buy one and enjoy. I'll ask ( Ricochet David ) what he
thinks also. 8:-) jim...
--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

I think Charles Peterson once wrote here that he always wanted to
own a MR78 from a "younger" age. I guess I'm in the same boat, I
now
own all McIntosh gear, and the only thing missing to complete my
main system is an MR78 tuna which I've oogled from my starving-
student days in college many years ago.

But with the MR78 prices being outrageous for quite some time, I've
resisted temptation. But now, a second nail in the coffin! The MR78
keeps on tumbling lower and lower in the shootout. I'm surprised
that it rates so low. OK - perhaps not desrving to be at the top -
but #36! I know, performance is all that matters, but how could
people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so long to command such a
premium price for it, let alone, its lofty reputation.

Some un-modded/serviced MR78s seem to be floating around now in the
$700 range ... are they still over-priced?


Brian Levy <brian.levy.esq@...>
 

For sound, the MR78 is IMHO below the MR77. It will win hands down in
the DX challange though. The DX capabilities of the 78 came a cost
over the sound quality of the 77. Mc had advanced the 77 as the
ultimate in sound but, it was losing in other areas that seemed to
becoming more important from a specification perspective. I'm not
sure the 78 should be that far down the ranking but agree with the
comment as to the sound.

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

I think Charles Peterson once wrote here that he always wanted to
own a MR78 from a "younger" age. I guess I'm in the same boat, I now
own all McIntosh gear, and the only thing missing to complete my
main system is an MR78 tuna which I've oogled from my starving-
student days in college many years ago.

But with the MR78 prices being outrageous for quite some time, I've
resisted temptation. But now, a second nail in the coffin! The MR78
keeps on tumbling lower and lower in the shootout. I'm surprised
that it rates so low. OK - perhaps not desrving to be at the top -
but #36! I know, performance is all that matters, but how could
people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so long to command such a
premium price for it, let alone, its lofty reputation.

Some un-modded/serviced MR78s seem to be floating around now in the
$700 range ... are they still over-priced?


sedond <dsedon@...>
 

a tuna freak whose opinion i respect (he doesn't hang out here,
unfortunately) sez a modded mr71 is the best-sounding tuna extant -
bettering every s/s or tube tuna he's ever heard, & he has heard most
all the well-known suspects, w/possible exception of the telefunken &
r&s ballemfanger (sp?) ball-receivers. he's an active buyer/seller on
ebay, audiogon, etc, so he's heard many samples of different models,
as well. so, if ya are itching for a mac, i'd suggest the mr71.
some day, when i find a bargain basement stock mr71, i will give it a
try...

doug s.

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

I think Charles Peterson once wrote here that he always wanted to
own a MR78 from a "younger" age. I guess I'm in the same boat, I now
own all McIntosh gear, and the only thing missing to complete my
main system is an MR78 tuna which I've oogled from my starving-
student days in college many years ago.

But with the MR78 prices being outrageous for quite some time, I've
resisted temptation. But now, a second nail in the coffin! The MR78
keeps on tumbling lower and lower in the shootout. I'm surprised
that it rates so low. OK - perhaps not desrving to be at the top -
but #36! I know, performance is all that matters, but how could
people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so long to command such a
premium price for it, let alone, its lofty reputation.

Some un-modded/serviced MR78s seem to be floating around now in the
$700 range ... are they still over-priced?


force92ca
 

Has he heard some of the -c- class tunas now on the list?

I can see some sounding better .. some here like the old Sherwoods.
There has not been an Accuphase yet in the shootout.

But #36?

I guess, I would be crying if I had spent $2K for that MR78 that has
been someone been sitting for sale on Audiogon for over a year.


--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "sedond" <dsedon@n...> wrote:
a tuna freak whose opinion i respect (he doesn't hang out here,
unfortunately) sez a modded mr71 is the best-sounding tuna extant -
bettering every s/s or tube tuna he's ever heard, & he has heard
most
all the well-known suspects, w/possible exception of the
telefunken &
r&s ballemfanger (sp?) ball-receivers. he's an active
buyer/seller on
ebay, audiogon, etc, so he's heard many samples of different
models,
as well. so, if ya are itching for a mac, i'd suggest the
mr71.
some day, when i find a bargain basement stock mr71, i will give
it a
try...

doug s.

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

I think Charles Peterson once wrote here that he always wanted
to
own a MR78 from a "younger" age. I guess I'm in the same boat, I
now
own all McIntosh gear, and the only thing missing to complete my
main system is an MR78 tuna which I've oogled from my starving-
student days in college many years ago.

But with the MR78 prices being outrageous for quite some time,
I've
resisted temptation. But now, a second nail in the coffin! The
MR78
keeps on tumbling lower and lower in the shootout. I'm surprised
that it rates so low. OK - perhaps not desrving to be at the
top -
but #36! I know, performance is all that matters, but how could
people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so long to command such a
premium price for it, let alone, its lofty reputation.

Some un-modded/serviced MR78s seem to be floating around now in
the
$700 range ... are they still over-priced?


Ed Hanlon <ed240@...>
 

Re: MR-78

how could people hae pegged this tuner wrong for so
long to command such a premium price for it, let
alone, its lofty reputation.

Here's my take...

1.)Back in it's day, you couldn't find anything even
close to being as selective as an MR-78.

2.) That was before the vintage tuner/modifying trend

3.) It's a Mac, so it's built like a tank and looks
gorgeous. And Mac gear tends to hold it's value.

Ed


Jim <jim@fmtunerinfo.com>
 

Hello again, I've emailed Ricochet David for his opinion and would
like to add, I've had other MR 78's in my system in the last ten
years and didn't like the sound quality of those either, sorry. But
remember it's just one opinion. The Shootout MR 78 even sounded
better than the previous one. Sorry but I have to stand by the
shootout rating. jim...

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?


force92ca
 


3.) It's a Mac, so it's built like a tank and looks
gorgeous. And Mac gear tends to hold it's value.
No question that's why I've always liked Mac gear. Some people think
they look hideous, but you can't but help appreciate the build
quality of these things until you see one ... makes a lot of other
equipment look like toys. And they do sound nice ...and hold their
value.

The shame too is, because of the high prices they command, people
are not apt to mod them in case they may want to resell them later.
If anything, given the quality of engineering that has gone into
them, they probably can be improved a lot with newer, better quality
caps, diodes and resistors.


Ed Hanlon <ed240@...>
 

....given the quality of engineering that
has gone into (the MR-78), they probably can be
improved a lot with newer, better quality
caps, diodes and resistors.
It's been tried by many, but I've yet to hear one that
sounded as good as the elite. The lopping off of the
highest highs seems to be a continual complaint. I
think many people would rather buy a Sansui TU-919 or
Kenwood KT-8300 and have it modified. They'll spend
less money and have a better performing tuner. And
many of these vintage tuners are also gorgeous and
well built.

Ed


force92ca
 

It would be interesting to see an MR-77 or MR-71 in the shootouts
perhaps.

Some people here have said they found these to "sound" better than
the MR-78.

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@f...> wrote:
Hello again, I've emailed Ricochet David for his opinion and would
like to add, I've had other MR 78's in my system in the last ten
years and didn't like the sound quality of those either, sorry.
But remember it's just one opinion. The Shootout MR 78 even
sounded
better than the previous one. Sorry but I have to stand by the
shootout rating. jim...


sedond <dsedon@...>
 

Has he heard some of the -c- class tunas now on the list?
==============================
yes, he has. as well as several accuphases, the linn kremlin, rotel
rht-10, tandberg 3001a, h/k citation 18, and most all the other usual
suspects. i respect his opinion, as he's an audiophile, not yust a
dx'er. (nuttin' against dx'ers, don't get me wrong!) also, his
opinions as to the sonics are similar to mine on the ones we've both
heard, like the revoxes, and tandberg 3001a.

so, even tho i'm one of those in the camp who tink the mac tuna's are
not at all attractive, i will still get an mr71 & have it modded one
of these days...

again, lemme stress the fact that he's talking about a modded mr71,
not a stocker. he sez that, while certainly nice stock, they are too
coloured, not enuff frequency extension or detail, etc, for a stock
mr71 to take top honors... i never asked him what his fave stock tuna
is, but i know hw's fond of the revoxes, accuphases, linn kremlin,
tandberg 3001a, and the really rare rotel rht-10...

doug s.


force92ca
 

And with the Sanyo review, the Mac MR78 now drops to #51. It don't
even make the top anymore.

I'm sure nobody noticed.


--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@f...> wrote:
Hello again, I've emailed Ricochet David for his opinion and would
like to add, I've had other MR 78's in my system in the last ten
years and didn't like the sound quality of those either, sorry.
But
remember it's just one opinion. The Shootout MR 78 even sounded
better than the previous one. Sorry but I have to stand by the
shootout rating. jim...
--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, "force92ca" <rdubicki@s...> wrote:

Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?


Steven Bobenhouse <steve@...>
 

I wonder what a good allignment would do. the factory always did a pretty fair job.

steve

R Dubicki wrote:

And with the Sanyo review, the Mac MR78 now drops to #51. It don't 
even make the top anymore.

I'm sure nobody noticed.


--- In FMtuners@..., "Jim"  wrote:
  
Hello again, I've emailed Ricochet David for his opinion and would 
like to add, I've had other MR 78's in my system in the last ten 
years and didn't like the sound quality of those either, sorry. 
    
But 
  
remember it's just one opinion. The Shootout MR 78 even sounded 
better than the previous one. Sorry but I have to stand by the 
shootout rating. jim...
--- In FMtuners@..., "force92ca"  wrote:
    
Does this tuner deserve a ricochet?

      

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force92ca
 

I'm pretty sure that the MR78 Jim tried out had been aligned within
the past two years. Jim can correct me if I am wrong.


Steven Bobenhouse <steve@f...> wrote:

I wonder what a good allignment would do. the factory always did a
pretty fair job.

steve


Charles Peterson <charlesp@...>
 

I believe these tests are honest, and done as reported by a sincere and
well organized (much better than me, anyway) and critical audiophile of
many years standing.

But of course, they are just one person's impression. And they are not
done under blind conditions or (as far as I have read) systematic level
matching.

Therefore, don't take this too seriously. I don't. It's fun, but only
until people start taking it too seriously.

I'm willing to bet $10 that no one can even hear the difference, statistically
significant (p < 0.05), between an MR 78 under level-matched blind conditions
and any other tuner above it, both performing normally, on Jim's list on a
strong local stations that comes in well on both tuners. (I'd bet a lot more,
say $50, if I were observing the procedings or had some other way to be sure
they were actually done correctly.) Of course, a full report on FMtuners would
be required, and offer is limited to the first 5 people who report such a
difference.

Unlike some other things, such as modern power amplifiers, there are significant
frequency response variations, probably exceeding 1dB in many cases. But I
myself have been amazed at how hard even such easily measured differences are to
hear consistently in music without, say, days of well-designed practice.

(And given that, I am even more suspicious of the audible difference of
tweaks having with no measureable difference or sound theoretical basis.)

Charles

I'm pretty sure that the MR78 Jim tried out had been aligned within
the past two years. Jim can correct me if I am wrong.


Steven Bobenhouse <steve@f...> wrote:
I wonder what a good allignment would do. the factory always did a
pretty fair job.

steve



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
FMtuners-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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force92ca
 

If someone already owns an MR78, the ranking does not mean a silly
thing, other than perhaps some buyer's remorse (if they shelled out
big $ for it). But if they are happy with it, then fine. Enjoy the
Music. You've obviously got deep pockets (or have not listen to
enough tuners).

However, with the MR78 ranked so low, I can assure you, sensible
people will now be VERY apprehensive in shelling out upwards of
$1000 or more for an MR78. Let's face it ... unless you live in a
cave, most everyone does a Google to do some "research" and will
undobtedly stuble upon TIC and its ranking. It made me think twice,
and that was when it was down at #36 not #50.

If the MR78 sold for $300, then so be it. But it don't - it commands
a hefty premium in the market - supposedly because it is a "great"
tuner. High price tag tuners merit greater scrutiny.

If it were in the Top 25, well then, there is wiggle room for
debate. But with its placement outside the Top 50 (!) leads me to
conclude it is over-priced and a poor value performance wise, and
its "reputation" was inflated. Probably a descent tuner, but way
over-priced.

If Jim tested a busted unit ... it merits a re-review soon to do it
justice.






--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, Charles Peterson <charlesp@d...>
wrote:
I believe these tests are honest, and done as reported by a
sincere and
well organized (much better than me, anyway) and critical
audiophile of
many years standing.

But of course, they are just one person's impression. And they
are not
done under blind conditions or (as far as I have read) systematic
level
matching.

Therefore, don't take this too seriously. I don't. It's fun, but
only
until people start taking it too seriously.

I'm willing to bet $10 that no one can even hear the difference,
statistically
significant (p < 0.05), between an MR 78 under level-matched blind
conditions
and any other tuner above it, both performing normally, on Jim's
list on a
strong local stations that comes in well on both tuners. (I'd bet
a lot more,
say $50, if I were observing the procedings or had some other way
to be sure
they were actually done correctly.) Of course, a full report on
FMtuners would
be required, and offer is limited to the first 5 people who report
such a
difference.

Unlike some other things, such as modern power amplifiers, there
are significant
frequency response variations, probably exceeding 1dB in many
cases. But I
myself have been amazed at how hard even such easily measured
differences are to
hear consistently in music without, say, days of well-designed
practice.

(And given that, I am even more suspicious of the audible
difference of
tweaks having with no measureable difference or sound theoretical
basis.)

Charles



I'm pretty sure that the MR78 Jim tried out had been aligned
within
the past two years. Jim can correct me if I am wrong.


Steven Bobenhouse <steve@f...> wrote:
I wonder what a good allignment would do. the factory always
did a
pretty fair job.

steve



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
FMtuners-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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Jim <jim@fmtunerinfo.com>
 

"Therefore, don't take this too seriously" IAGREE jim...
"no one can even hear the difference" I DISAGREE jim...
and with 1200 of us here, I'll bet there are over 1000 different
opinions. 8:-) jim...

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, Charles Peterson <charlesp@d...>
wrote:
I believe these tests are honest, and done as reported by a sincere
and
well organized (much better than me, anyway) and critical
audiophile of
many years standing.

But of course, they are just one person's impression. And they are
not
done under blind conditions or (as far as I have read) systematic
level
matching.

Therefore, don't take this too seriously. I don't. It's fun, but
only
until people start taking it too seriously.

I'm willing to bet $10 that no one can even hear the difference,
statistically
significant (p < 0.05), between an MR 78 under level-matched blind
conditions
and any other tuner above it, both performing normally, on Jim's
list on a
strong local stations that comes in well on both tuners. (I'd bet
a lot more,
say $50, if I were observing the procedings or had some other way
to be sure
they were actually done correctly.) Of course, a full report on
FMtuners would
be required, and offer is limited to the first 5 people who report
such a
difference.

Unlike some other things, such as modern power amplifiers, there
are significant
frequency response variations, probably exceeding 1dB in many
cases. But I
myself have been amazed at how hard even such easily measured
differences are to
hear consistently in music without, say, days of well-designed
practice.

(And given that, I am even more suspicious of the audible
difference of
tweaks having with no measureable difference or sound theoretical
basis.)

Charles



I'm pretty sure that the MR78 Jim tried out had been aligned
within
the past two years. Jim can correct me if I am wrong.


Steven Bobenhouse <steve@f...> wrote:
I wonder what a good allignment would do. the factory always
did a
pretty fair job.

steve



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
FMtuners-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


force92ca
 

Charles and Jim,

If a $1699 tuner (the current list price of an MR78 @ Audio
Classics) sounds indistinguishible form a $99 Sanyo on eBay, which
is the better tuner?

Ha ha, oh well, let's not take this too seriously folks. Right?
Right ... most people are stupid ... why then would they now throw
their hard-earned money at the Mac then? As Ryan would say: for a
lot of chrome, black and glass. To each his own I guess.

You can't have it both ways! Don't take the rankings seriously -
well then, you might as well stop the silly excercise - there is NO
credibility in engaging in a lark ... put a CAVEAT in big letters on
the ranking page to say: it is all a big joke and that potential
buyer's should not hold any reservations in forking out $1699 on the
MR78 if you've heard "somewhere else" a bunch of baloney that its
one of the best tuners ever even though it scrapes the bottom of the
list. Too much of a dissonance for some people to grasp, I think.

What can one summise from the current list - only one thing: the
MR78 is a VERY poor value on a price/performance scale.

It may - possibly - be a better tuner than many listed abot it, but
its VERY, VERY expensive. Only a handful of tuners in the top 50
sell for more. That's my point.

IF everyone hears different - then you got to wonder how something
can jump from place #51 to the top ten (which is the price range the
78 commands based on price) by someone else's hearing.


Bob


"no one can even hear the difference" I DISAGREE jim...
and with 1200 of us here, I'll bet there are over 1000 different
opinions. 8:-) jim...

I'm willing to bet $10 that no one can even hear the difference,
statistically
significant (p < 0.05), between an MR 78 under level-matched
blind
conditions
and any other tuner above it, both performing normally, on Jim's
list on a
strong local stations that comes in well on both tuners.


chat4tune <tg_@...>
 

--- In FMtuners@yahoogroups.com, Charles Peterson <charlesp@d...> wrote:
practice.


[...]
(And given that, I am even more suspicious of the audible difference of
tweaks having with no measureable difference or sound theoretical
basis.)

Charles
Hi Charles,

As far as I know, hearing "treatment" is closer to ondelet transform
than to Fourier transform. So the best creteria for hearing are
different and more complex than criteria usualy used. More than that,
for practical reasons, technical criteria are very often using steady
signals rather than not steady ones. Two tone measurements, instead of
multi tone measurements, and so on...

Therefore, I think that good specifications (met of course !) only
ensures very good performances, not top performances.

Another point is how far the tuner can stand bad reception conditions
and how it can sound more or less unpleasant then.

Regards,
Thierry


Charles Peterson <charlesp@...>
 

Charles and Jim,

If a $1699 tuner (the current list price of an MR78 @ Audio
Classics) sounds indistinguishible form a $99 Sanyo on eBay, which
is the better tuner?

Ha ha, oh well, let's not take this too seriously folks. Right?
Right ... most people are stupid ... why then would they now throw
their hard-earned money at the Mac then? As Ryan would say: for a
lot of chrome, black and glass. To each his own I guess.
Don't forget that the MR 78 is one of the best available DX machines available
in stock form. It has "supertuner" sensitivity and selectivity. And it's
likely that any one you get will have that quality, from superior engineering
and manufacturing quality, unlike some tuners where the performance is highly
variable and even the factory didn't bother (or couldn't afford) to do a decent
alignment. It's unlikely the MR 78 will fail to deliver regardless of strong
local stations (the designer lives 600 feet from a broadcasting antenna) or
anything else. The switches in my 25 year old unit work silently, and the
whole thing is likely to last decades or more (with electrolytic replacements
every 25 years or so). The circuit boards are fiberglass, not cheap phenolic.

You get a 3 position IF bandwidth selector in which the narrow is REALLY NARROW,
not just slightly less wide (as in the famed Kenwoods 600T and KT-917).

I think MR 78 looks wonderful, like a collection of electronic jewelry in an
terrarium (particularly from the top). The ergonomics (save the dial markings
and the strength meter) are as good as it gets. I love the backlit black
glass front panel. I'm pretty sure the knobs have real metal in them (not
just painted on trim).

You were clearly getting your money's worth in design, parts, and quality.
To manufacture something like this today would cost at least $5000.

Don't forget, it's a collectible and highly sought after audio legend.

And in my experience it sounds better than all but one of my tuners, including
a 600T, Yamaha T-80, Fisher KM-61, Sony 5000FW, Sony ST-5000FW, Kenwood KT-7500,
and Onkyo T-9090II. (Actually, I'm listening to the Onkyo now in my #1
spot, and I'm thinking I might like the Onkyo better. It turns out that some,
such as James Bongiorno, have considered the Onkyo as one of the best sounding
tuners, while others have considered it one of the worst.)

I have not done any blind testing. I'm betting that no one can hear the
difference not because I don't believe a difference can be proveably be heard,
at great difficulty, but because I think it's a lot harder than most people
realize. I believe the differences are actually very small. I know my
judgements have been highly variable. The Onkyo used to be near the bottom of
my list, now it's at the top.

I don't think of it in terms of "gee, I could have the same sound in a $90
Sanyo," but rather "It wouldn't sound significantly better with a $13,000
Sequerra, or an unobtanium L-02T."

You can't have it both ways! Don't take the rankings seriously -
well then, you might as well stop the silly excercise - there is NO
credibility in engaging in a lark ... put a CAVEAT in big letters on
the ranking page to say: it is all a big joke and that potential
I think Jim takes it appropriately seriously given his chosen methodology. It's
just that other people should not, and/or not take any such "GESR" rankings
seriously. That includes pretty much every audio review that has ever been
written. Jim's are at least as good as any of the others, if not better.

When I see the p value, then I'll take the review seriously. When was the last
time that happened?

buyer's should not hold any reservations in forking out $1699 on the
MR78 if you've heard "somewhere else" a bunch of baloney that its
one of the best tuners ever even though it scrapes the bottom of the
list. Too much of a dissonance for some people to grasp, I think.
If they can't grasp dissonance, they should be forget high end audio. Actually,
most people are, which is why I'm trying to push for proveably serious audio
reviewing. I think that would put most attention back to where it belongs,
on speakers.

Charles