Topics

Compact 5 and F1 upgrade.


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Hello, completely new to the EMCO scene, just picked up 2 x F1s and a Compact 5, none are working as far as I know, one mill and the lathe look like they wont need much mechanically, i will strip them down and clean them up. As far as the control side, I'm not sure. What I want to do is completely replace the electrics and controls/motors etc and fit a newer CNC controller. Being green and way to busy to stuff around, I want to throw money at the problem (within reason) and just get to making stuff, I have projects to do and would rather make these work well and move on than make them a massive project in itself. 

Would there be somewhere for suggestions on what would be the best retro fit kit/s or controls and upgrades to get them running nice and reliably to make parts? I want to make parts for carburetors etc, would really like to machine my own venturis etc. 

If it is possible to run a mill and a lathe off of one computer that would be preferable. I am happy to learn what I need but just dont have time to cobble co bits together. Linux or windows based? I have no preference, Linux seems like it is something I should learn. I want smooth, as fast as the machine can happily do all day long and reliable, i dont need to push the limits for bragging rights just to be able to turn it on comfortably know it isnt going to self destruct. Is this possible? 

Ready to be put in my place by people who know better! Thanks Ben 


Keith
 

Hi Ben,
I bought a Compact 5 CNC about 2 months ago so I am a novice with Emco machines.
Both the F1 and the C5 are (unless they have been modified) are self supporting machine and do not require a computer except to load G Code.
There is a great deal of support on this site and also the dedicated C5 group on this site (groups.io)
Manuals are available on the sites as is MFI (Mikes Free Interface) software to load the G Code.
Because they are self contained you can effectively use the machines as manual machine which can be useful.
I have found a great deal of help on all the Emco sites on groups.io and my machine is up and running.
One question, does your C5 have a tape drive or a floppy disk drive?
As I have been trying to find instructions/schematic for the Floppy drive.
All the best with your machines.

Keith


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Hi Keith, my Compact 5 has a tape drive. It does look fairly complete but has failed servos according to the out of service tag fitted. The mills are missing the controllers by the looks, i have to unload them today and inspect. They need work electrically. 


marty_in_mesa
 

Do you have basic electronics/electrical skills? Have you ever done a CNC conversion before? There are many control options out there, older Mach3, Linux CNC, UCCNC, and the one I'm partial to, Centroid Acorn.
Do YouTube searches for your model Emco, and each one of the control systems.

Emco made some good iron deserving of an updated control in my opinion.

Marty

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 4:10 PM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Hi Keith, my Compact 5 has a tape drive. It does look fairly complete but has failed servos according to the out of service tag fitted. The mills are missing the controllers by the looks, i have to unload them today and inspect. They need work electrically. 


Roderick Mellott
 

Mach 4,  Pokeys57cnc and drivers.
Mach 4. Fusion 360 has compatible post with Mach 4. One stop design and manufacturing package.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 7:27 PM marty_in_mesa <marty.escarcega@...> wrote:
Do you have basic electronics/electrical skills? Have you ever done a CNC conversion before? There are many control options out there, older Mach3, Linux CNC, UCCNC, and the one I'm partial to, Centroid Acorn.
Do YouTube searches for your model Emco, and each one of the control systems.

Emco made some good iron deserving of an updated control in my opinion.

Marty

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 4:10 PM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Hi Keith, my Compact 5 has a tape drive. It does look fairly complete but has failed servos according to the out of service tag fitted. The mills are missing the controllers by the looks, i have to unload them today and inspect. They need work electrically. 


JDT
 

I  am also learning about these machines and have gained a good bit of help from this forum. That said, if you are retrofitting the Compact 5, and intend to sell parts to be replaced with more up to date components, I would be interested in hearing what you might have from the Compact 5 that you might want to sell or trade . 
If that is your plan we can communicate outside of this forum.

Thanks!

On Sep 18, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Keith via groups.io <themendist@...> wrote:

Hi Ben,
I bought a Compact 5 CNC about 2 months ago so I am a novice with Emco machines.
Both the F1 and the C5 are (unless they have been modified) are self supporting machine and do not require a computer except to load G Code.
There is a great deal of support on this site and also the dedicated C5 group on this site (groups.io)
Manuals are available on the sites as is MFI (Mikes Free Interface) software to load the G Code.
Because they are self contained you can effectively use the machines as manual machine which can be useful.
I have found a great deal of help on all the Emco sites on groups.io and my machine is up and running.
One question, does your C5 have a tape drive or a floppy disk drive?
As I have been trying to find instructions/schematic for the Floppy drive.
All the best with your machines.

Keith


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Hi Marty, I am confident I can do a conversion, I have not done one. I have installed VFDs on my lathe etc. I like the Centroid idea. I have seen some of your Youtube clips, this seems to be the way I would like to head. I use fusion 360 already so to be able to utilise that would be great. 


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Hi JDT, i am sure I can work out something if you need bits. I am located in Australia just so you are aware. Cheers Ben


marty_in_mesa
 

I am working on a PC 5 lathe now and in the coming weeks. Third one I have done for a customer. I posted MY "suggested" bill of materials and am just getting started with it. It will have a spindle encoder.
If you or anyone else cares to follow along, my build thread is on the Centroid User's Forum: https://centroidcncforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4753

Nice thing about Centroid Acorn is that BOTH the hardware AND software come from the same manufacturer. All they have done for the past 30+ years is machine motion control. They keep improving hardware and software as well. (Adding features)
Information on Acorn and schematics can be found on this page: https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html
Good luck in whatever direction you choose, plenty of options these days for the DIYer!

Marty



On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 1:42 AM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Hi Marty, I am confident I can do a conversion, I have not done one. I have installed VFDs on my lathe etc. I like the Centroid idea. I have seen some of your Youtube clips, this seems to be the way I would like to head. I use fusion 360 already so to be able to utilise that would be great. 


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Hi Marty, I have found your thread on centroid forums, and the build you are doing there I think would suit my needs, I have watched a few vids and I am confident I can copy along with your set up there I think I may just blatantly copy what you are doing, I am In Australia so some components will be different. If you where doing one for yourself with out the restrictions of a previous customer build is there any changes you would make the set up? The integrated servo's for example? or a different style drive motor. I also have the turret I would like to utilize.

Also what is the best option for setting up for drilling and using a boring bar on these little machines? 


marty_in_mesa
 

You could certainly use any other motor. Teknic clearpath or integrated drive. Just make sure you have enough shaft and get the correct pulley.
I was left to design these. Customer has been happy so he had me do the 3rd one and then a PC55 Mill. 
We already have the Centroid Acorn PLC working for turrets. The PC 5 is simple. You just need to add one sensor so the control can home the turret to tool 1. Then it keeps track of the tools. Its time based. 
I believe we used a 12 volt DC power supply to roll the turret forward and an adjustable DC-DC converter to drop the 12V for to I believe 5VDC to reverse the turret against the pawl. 

As far as tools, you can ask the guys here. My customer has special purposes for his machines.

Marty

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 6:07 PM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Hi Marty, I have found your thread on centroid forums, and the build you are doing there I think would suit my needs, I have watched a few vids and I am confident I can copy along with your set up there I think I may just blatantly copy what you are doing, I am In Australia so some components will be different. If you where doing one for yourself with out the restrictions of a previous customer build is there any changes you would make the set up? The integrated servo's for example? or a different style drive motor. I also have the turret I would like to utilize.

Also what is the best option for setting up for drilling and using a boring bar on these little machines? 


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Thanks Marty, the clearpaths look really good as for price everything is looking to be around the same for me by the time I get them here, I was looking at the DMM servos too as I have some already for another project, that I haven't got to yet. How do you size the servos in comparison to the steppers, there is no real apples to apples, I need to find the machine specs for these so I can work out speeds etc


marty_in_mesa
 

Because steppers are usually oversized by up to 30% for a safety cushion due to their open loop nature, you could downsize by that much. Don't put too big a motor on the little PC5....if you hit a hard stop, you want the drive to fault and not twist or break something. 

Marty

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 6:39 PM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Thanks Marty, the clearpaths look really good as for price everything is looking to be around the same for me by the time I get them here, I was looking at the DMM servos too as I have some already for another project, that I haven't got to yet. How do you size the servos in comparison to the steppers, there is no real apples to apples, I need to find the machine specs for these so I can work out speeds etc


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Well I am thinking I may go for the DMM Dyn4 servo option (0.2kW 0.637N.m rated 1.91N.m peak), with the conversion rate or paying Aussie prices locally (well 2500klms away locally) I am up for pretty much the same money for these or the steppers / separate drive or the integrated steppers, especially once I add in a DC power supply. 

I am undecided on what to do for the spindle motor, I am leaning toward a DMM servo for this as well, price wise it is much the same for a 3ph motor and a VSD as it is for the DYN4 servo?

Some say no servo, some say servo is better, I think the 86M-DHT will be more than enough power, maybe to much? I thing the .4 would do but the larger mass of the DHT might work better, you don't have to use all the power do you! 

I assume a spindle encoder is still required even if using a timing belt? to deal with slip / stretch etc. 

The next question is, if I am going to pay for freight etc I may as well buy all the servos for the mill as well. I was thinking maybe the .4kw DYN4s for the mill and the brake for Z axis. then the same spindle motor as for the lathe. 

The lathe and the mills owe me nothing so far so I don't have initial purchase price eating into my funds. I have no further plans to upgrade once this is done.


marty_in_mesa
 

I would NOT put a 750W servo on those machines. I used 750W servos on my 3000lb Emcoturn 140 with large ballscrews....
I and others have NOT had good experience using a DMM AC Servo motor for a spindle. The issue is that servos need tuning.
The small 3 phase motors from TVT America (It is Italian made motor so can be sourced from other countries I would imagine) and the sensorless vector TD200 drive from Factorymation.com make a good pair. (or similar)
You will have to fit encoders however you can. I think my solution for the PC5 lathe is elegant. I have not done or seen a PC55 mill yet so I don't know if its doable...yet.

It is better to use a timing belt so there is no slippage. Its the way its traditionally done and at 1:1 with the spindle.

My .02. Others may have their experiences to share on the setups they used when doing their conversions.
Marty


On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 6:57 AM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Well I am thinking I may go for the DMM Dyn4 servo option (0.2kW 0.637N.m rated 1.91N.m peak), with the conversion rate or paying Aussie prices locally (well 2500klms away locally) I am up for pretty much the same money for these or the steppers / separate drive or the integrated steppers, especially once I add in a DC power supply. 

I am undecided on what to do for the spindle motor, I am leaning toward a DMM servo for this as well, price wise it is much the same for a 3ph motor and a VSD as it is for the DYN4 servo?

Some say no servo, some say servo is better, I think the 86M-DHT will be more than enough power, maybe to much? I thing the .4 would do but the larger mass of the DHT might work better, you don't have to use all the power do you! 

I assume a spindle encoder is still required even if using a timing belt? to deal with slip / stretch etc. 

The next question is, if I am going to pay for freight etc I may as well buy all the servos for the mill as well. I was thinking maybe the .4kw DYN4s for the mill and the brake for Z axis. then the same spindle motor as for the lathe. 

The lathe and the mills owe me nothing so far so I don't have initial purchase price eating into my funds. I have no further plans to upgrade once this is done.


benjamin.ellis@...
 

Well I have ordered 2 Centroid kits, 5 servo kits from DMM, I went with the 200W servos, they are rated at .64Nm with a peak of 1.91Nm, which is lower than the steppers Marty suggested so hopefully are not too big. Got 2 industrial NUCs and screens on their way too. Keen to get building. 

Still need to source a motor for the lathe, I have a few option for those, not sure what to do for the spindle motor on the mill, the motors on them look ok but are unknown until run, which is not possible as neither mills are complete, the electrics are completely stripped out. I would prefer to replace the lot in one go so I am not trying to redo wiring and controls later. More research required. 


marty_in_mesa
 

3 phase 1/2hp motor used on the PC5 lathe. Direct bolt in replacement. https://www.tvtamerica.net/collections/mt%C2%AE/products/tn63c2-na
B14 frame.

I don't know about the mill yet.
Good luck with your builds! Create a build log on the Centroid User Forums or at least create a google album and share the link.

Marty

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 12:45 PM <benjamin.ellis@...> wrote:
Well I have ordered 2 Centroid kits, 5 servo kits from DMM, I went with the 200W servos, they are rated at .64Nm with a peak of 1.91Nm, which is lower than the steppers Marty suggested so hopefully are not too big. Got 2 industrial NUCs and screens on their way too. Keen to get building. 

Still need to source a motor for the lathe, I have a few option for those, not sure what to do for the spindle motor on the mill, the motors on them look ok but are unknown until run, which is not possible as neither mills are complete, the electrics are completely stripped out. I would prefer to replace the lot in one go so I am not trying to redo wiring and controls later. More research required. 


JDT
 

If you are retrofitting the Compact 5, I would be interested in buying some of the discarded original parts. I have a Compact 5 that is in need of an EMCO A6A/112001  motor control board. I can purchase or have extra parts to trade if you have parts needs. Thanks!

JDT


Chile Bike
 

Buddy,
I have one of these, it's seperated from the speed control part, but that's there as well, and you are welcome to have it for the cost of postage. However, you might want to look at one of these:
AC180V-260V Input DC220V Output 8A adjust PWM DC Motor Speed Controller Driver

eBay item number:
112212401393
which is about 1000% better - speed to zero, isolated inputs, no choke. Just get the 180 volt version. I'm happy to get rid of this thing, I have enough junk already!
sdk
Simon Kay


On Tuesday, 20 October 2020, 13:32:01 BST, JDT <toler_j@...> wrote:


If you are retrofitting the Compact 5, I would be interested in buying some of the discarded original parts. I have a Compact 5 that is in need of an EMCO A6A/112001  motor control board. I can purchase or have extra parts to trade if you have parts needs. Thanks!

JDT


JDT
 


Sounds great! Very generous of you! Any chance you can send a pic of the board to insure it is the same? I live in Kentucky in USA. Where are you? Just trying to guestimate postage costs.  You can email me at Toler_j@....  Thanks!

JDT

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020, 10:21:49 AM CDT, Chile Bike via groups.io <chile_bike@...> wrote:


Buddy,
I have one of these, it's seperated from the speed control part, but that's there as well, and you are welcome to have it for the cost of postage. However, you might want to look at one of these:
AC180V-260V Input DC220V Output 8A adjust PWM DC Motor Speed Controller Driver

eBay item number:
112212401393
which is about 1000% better - speed to zero, isolated inputs, no choke. Just get the 180 volt version. I'm happy to get rid of this thing, I have enough junk already!
sdk
Simon Kay


On Tuesday, 20 October 2020, 13:32:01 BST, JDT <toler_j@...> wrote:


If you are retrofitting the Compact 5, I would be interested in buying some of the discarded original parts. I have a Compact 5 that is in need of an EMCO A6A/112001  motor control board. I can purchase or have extra parts to trade if you have parts needs. Thanks!

JDT