Topics

Compact 5 PC retrofitting project

KR Lynn
 

I'm at the threshold of starting a deep retrofitting project with one or two Compact 5 PCs that have control-side issues I'm not competent to trouble-shoot and/or resolve. I've tried everything obvious (e.g. fuses, bridge rectifier, etc.).
 
I have virtually no background in electronics and can't make much sense out of electrical diagrams/schematics, but I'm willing to learn whatever I can that would be useful to know.
 
I've just purchased a Centroid/Acorn controller kit and NEMA 23 282 oz-in closed-loop stepper Motors 2 Axis CNC Kit.

I know some of the questions I'll be asking have been answered before. I've collected and gone through all the information I could find on various bulletin boards, etc., but I'd like to gather whatever I can from those who might have helpful experience/perspective/opinions they haven't posted yet.
 
1. Any thoughts/recommendations with regard to optimal power supply for the stepper motors? Automation Technology (AT) responded to an email by recommending this unit; however, the 2-axis kit AT offers with same motors includes and Unregulated Linear 960W/ 48 VDC/20A Toroidal PSU (KL-4820).

2. I haven't decided on what to use for spindle motor replacement. I've seen discussion of the Consew motors, and I've found a standard .5 HP metric motor (63 B34, so same body and flange) that should just bolt on. I don't need reversibility or VFD, but they'd be nice (especially variable speed control). Any recommendations or counsel?

marty_in_mesa
 

Do you have the original DC spindle motor? If so, you could keep it and put on a KB Electronics DC controller


On Sun, Jul 1, 2018, 3:38 PM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:
I'm at the threshold of starting a deep retrofitting project with one or two Compact 5 PCs that have control-side issues I'm not competent to trouble-shoot and/or resolve. I've tried everything obvious (e.g. fuses, bridge rectifier, etc.).
 
I have virtually no background in electronics and can't make much sense out of electrical diagrams/schematics, but I'm willing to learn whatever I can that would be useful to know.
 
I've just purchased a Centroid/Acorn controller kit and NEMA 23 282 oz-in closed-loop stepper Motors 2 Axis CNC Kit.

I know some of the questions I'll be asking have been answered before. I've collected and gone through all the information I could find on various bulletin boards, etc., but I'd like to gather whatever I can from those who might have helpful experience/perspective/opinions they haven't posted yet.
 
1. Any thoughts/recommendations with regard to optimal power supply for the stepper motors? Automation Technology (AT) responded to an email by recommending this unit; however, the 2-axis kit AT offers with same motors includes and Unregulated Linear 960W/ 48 VDC/20A Toroidal PSU (KL-4820).

2. I haven't decided on what to use for spindle motor replacement. I've seen discussion of the Consew motors, and I've found a standard .5 HP metric motor (63 B34, so same body and flange) that should just bolt on. I don't need reversibility or VFD, but they'd be nice (especially variable speed control). Any recommendations or counsel?

markotime
 

The Minarik dc controllers, if my memory serves me correctly, may be easier to interface to
speed control.
However, I use KBIC myself.  The DC motor was well worth the price - one or two on ebay
now.
I tried the (used to be) ubiquitous treadmill motor, but brushes / commutator got dirty and I
had to rap the motor with something to get it to maintain a solid speed.  It also tended to
be a little rougher than the Emco one.  (An article in Mother Earth News or something like
that recommended these motors for wind generators, and the supply dried up within weeks!)

KR Lynn
 

Would that work?

The Emco Compact 5 PC lathes made for the US originally had single phase, capacitor start motors. My understanding is that there's no way to control spindle speed with them other than by moving the belts.

There are two-phase metric motors with the same frame-size and flange that work as easy replacements combined with a KB inverter with on/off switch and speed control pot. I don't think that would give me VFD, right? But it's a compromise I could easily live with.

I have all the original single-phase, AC motors for these lathes, as well as 2-3 spares I've picked up. But a concerning observation is that at least a couple that are on newer (i.e., late build) machines that had signs of very little, if any, use when I got them, appear by the DRO to run at appreciably slower speeds (approx. 2,200 vs 2,900-3,000 RPM with max belt/pulley placement) than other comparable machines (approx. 2,200 vs 2,900-3,000 RPM with max belt/pulley placement). I compensate as needed by slowing feed rates, but that's not acceptable. 

marty_in_mesa
 

If it's a single phase motor, the speed is fixed.
If it's a 3 phase motor it could.
If it's the original DC motor it could. 
If using Acorn, a true line driver(differential) encoder would have to be used. (Not the slotted one that came with the machine)

Marty

On Sun, Jul 1, 2018, 8:22 PM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:
Would that work?

The Emco Compact 5 PC lathes made for the US originally had single phase, capacitor start motors. My understanding is that there's no way to control spindle speed with them other than by moving the belts.

There are two-phase metric motors with the same frame-size and flange that work as easy replacements combined with a KB inverter with on/off switch and speed control pot. I don't think that would give me VFD, right? But it's a compromise I could easily live with.

I have all the original single-phase, AC motors for these lathes, as well as 2-3 spares I've picked up. But a concerning observation is that at least a couple that are on newer (i.e., late build) machines that had signs of very little, if any, use when I got them, appear by the DRO to run at appreciably slower speeds (approx. 2,200 vs 2,900-3,000 RPM with max belt/pulley placement) than other comparable machines (approx. 2,200 vs 2,900-3,000 RPM with max belt/pulley placement). I compensate as needed by slowing feed rates, but that's not acceptable. 

KR Lynn
 

Marty, did my reply above included quoted text from yours? If so, I don't see it.

I understand your statements with regard to single phase and three phase. I have a Leeson replacement motor with a KB Electronics inverter, although the Leeson is only about 1/3 HP. I bought that motor to test. I haven't tried it yet.

With regard to references to original motor, I know the motor you have in mind but want to clarify that my EC5 PC lathes are 100% original, and they all have single-phase AC, fixed speed motors, i.e., not the DC motors that Compact 5 CNC lathes had.

So, I'm back to the question, what are current best options for a replacement spindle motor? I have a number of these lathes. My objective is to come up with a plan to retrofit all of them in the same way. I'm starting out with one or two to work that out. I expect some trial and error, but want to give careful consideration to choices before crashing ahead. I currently run control the machines with LinuxCNC but have committed to trial Centroid/Acorn with Automation Technology's closed-loop stepper motors. Next, I need settle on power supply for the steppers and line out a plan for spindle motor replacement. It seems the choices are basically a servo (like the Consew) or a 3-phase motor like the Leeson (I found a Lafert that's 1/2 HP). 

I don't know anything about line driver (differential) encoders. So that's now on the list of stuff to figure out. Any guidance or suggestions will be appreciated.

marty_in_mesa
 

Did you do the Linux conversion? If so, you should be ok.
I realize the space is tight and you can't accommodate a full size 3 phase motor.
DC motor may likely be your only option otherwise.
DC brush servo motors may work, but you have to watch the max terminal voltage to be around 90-100vdc and that the RPM suits your needs.

If you have not done a conversion before you may struggle with it without help, or some electrical background. Did you download the Centroid Acorn Schematics?
Marty

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018, 8:19 AM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:

Marty, did my reply above included quoted text from yours? If so, I don't see it.

I understand your statements with regard to single phase and three phase. I have a Leeson replacement motor with a KB Electronics inverter, although the Leeson is only about 1/3 HP. I bought that motor to test. I haven't tried it yet.

With regard to references to original motor, I know the motor you have in mind but want to clarify that my EC5 PC lathes are 100% original, and they all have single-phase AC, fixed speed motors, i.e., not the DC motors that Compact 5 CNC lathes had.

So, I'm back to the question, what are current best options for a replacement spindle motor? I have a number of these lathes. My objective is to come up with a plan to retrofit all of them in the same way. I'm starting out with one or two to work that out. I expect some trial and error, but want to give careful consideration to choices before crashing ahead. I currently run control the machines with LinuxCNC but have committed to trial Centroid/Acorn with Automation Technology's closed-loop stepper motors. Next, I need settle on power supply for the steppers and line out a plan for spindle motor replacement. It seems the choices are basically a servo (like the Consew) or a 3-phase motor like the Leeson (I found a Lafert that's 1/2 HP). 

I don't know anything about line driver (differential) encoders. So that's now on the list of stuff to figure out. Any guidance or suggestions will be appreciated.

marty_in_mesa
 

Oh, you will require that encoder if you wish to use threading, rigid tapping and Constant Surface Speed features of Acorn/CNC12


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018, 8:19 AM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:

Marty, did my reply above included quoted text from yours? If so, I don't see it.

I understand your statements with regard to single phase and three phase. I have a Leeson replacement motor with a KB Electronics inverter, although the Leeson is only about 1/3 HP. I bought that motor to test. I haven't tried it yet.

With regard to references to original motor, I know the motor you have in mind but want to clarify that my EC5 PC lathes are 100% original, and they all have single-phase AC, fixed speed motors, i.e., not the DC motors that Compact 5 CNC lathes had.

So, I'm back to the question, what are current best options for a replacement spindle motor? I have a number of these lathes. My objective is to come up with a plan to retrofit all of them in the same way. I'm starting out with one or two to work that out. I expect some trial and error, but want to give careful consideration to choices before crashing ahead. I currently run control the machines with LinuxCNC but have committed to trial Centroid/Acorn with Automation Technology's closed-loop stepper motors. Next, I need settle on power supply for the steppers and line out a plan for spindle motor replacement. It seems the choices are basically a servo (like the Consew) or a 3-phase motor like the Leeson (I found a Lafert that's 1/2 HP). 

I don't know anything about line driver (differential) encoders. So that's now on the list of stuff to figure out. Any guidance or suggestions will be appreciated.

ThreeDJ16
 

You can find my build thread on the Acorn forum and Emco Facebook group for a PC Turn 55 that might point you in the right direction.  I used an Acorn and the same AT closed loop steppers.  All the info is there, just have to sort through a lot of reading.

-Jasen



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: KR Lynn <krlynn@...>
Date: 7/2/18 8:19 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Emco-CNC-Users] Compact 5 PC retrofitting project

-------- Original message --------
From: KR Lynn <krlynn@...>
Date: 7/2/18 8:19 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Emco-CNC-Users] Compact 5 PC retrofitting project

Marty, did my reply above included quoted text from yours? If so, I don't see it.

I understand your statements with regard to single phase and three phase. I have a Leeson replacement motor with a KB Electronics inverter, although the Leeson is only about 1/3 HP. I bought that motor to test. I haven't tried it yet.

With regard to references to original motor, I know the motor you have in mind but want to clarify that my EC5 PC lathes are 100% original, and they all have single-phase AC, fixed speed motors, i.e., not the DC motors that Compact 5 CNC lathes had.

So, I'm back to the question, what are current best options for a replacement spindle motor? I have a number of these lathes. My objective is to come up with a plan to retrofit all of them in the same way. I'm starting out with one or two to work that out. I expect some trial and error, but want to give careful consideration to choices before crashing ahead. I currently run control the machines with LinuxCNC but have committed to trial Centroid/Acorn with Automation Technology's closed-loop stepper motors. Next, I need settle on power supply for the steppers and line out a plan for spindle motor replacement. It seems the choices are basically a servo (like the Consew) or a 3-phase motor like the Leeson (I found a Lafert that's 1/2 HP). 

I don't know anything about line driver (differential) encoders. So that's now on the list of stuff to figure out. Any guidance or suggestions will be appreciated.

KR Lynn
 

Thanks for the replies. I need to figure out how to use groups.io (e.g., quoting). Apologies for any fumbling.
 Did you do the Linux conversion? If so, you should be ok. I realize the space is tight and you can't accommodate a full size 3 phase motor.

I for sure need help, Marty. We've talked. I'm just waiting for your return.

There really wasn't any physical conversion required for LinuxCNC as there is for Mach 3 (i.e., clipping out an octal latch). I'm perfectly happy with LinuxCNC and running these machines as originally made. The problem, as you know, is that stuff wears out and/or fails (motors, PC boards, etc.). I can run these machines. And I've taken them down and put them back together on the front side. But I'm not much good on the control side. Schematics are mostly Greek to me. I've can test for continuity and resistance, and have replaced fuses, bridge rectifiers, and a PC interface board (to restore functionality sacrificed to a Mach 3 conversion), but that's about as far as I can go. I also fried at least one board. I want to use this project to learn, but I don't want (and can't afford) to learn everything the hard way.

There are 1/3 and 1/2 HP 3-phase, metric motor with the same frame size and flange as the original EC5 PC motors available. My understanding is that they can be used with a KB Electronics KBMA-24D AC motor control 9533 to achieve variable speed. But I'm not clear about whether that variable speed can be controlled via Acorn. If so, that would be great. Constant surface speed would be a plus. If not, DRO would be acceptable.

Hi, Jasen. We've talked. I'm all over the stuff you've posted. Thanks!

marty_in_mesa
 

3 phase motors can be controlled by Acorn with many VFDs. I suggest sensorless vector VFDs. I'm experimenting with Huan Yang GT drives. They have good support, I've heard they are at the top of the heap as far as Chinese VFDs go. We'll see.


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018, 9:19 AM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I need to figure out how to use groups.io (e.g., quoting). Apologies for any fumbling.
 Did you do the Linux conversion? If so, you should be ok. I realize the space is tight and you can't accommodate a full size 3 phase motor.

I for sure need help, Marty. We've talked. I'm just waiting for your return.

There really wasn't any physical conversion required for LinuxCNC as there is for Mach 3 (i.e., clipping out an octal latch). I'm perfectly happy with LinuxCNC and running these machines as originally made. The problem, as you know, is that stuff wears out and/or fails (motors, PC boards, etc.). I can run these machines. And I've taken them down and put them back together on the front side. But I'm not much good on the control side. Schematics are mostly Greek to me. I've can test for continuity and resistance, and have replaced fuses, bridge rectifiers, and a PC interface board (to restore functionality sacrificed to a Mach 3 conversion), but that's about as far as I can go. I also fried at least one board. I want to use this project to learn, but I don't want (and can't afford) to learn everything the hard way.

There are 1/3 and 1/2 HP 3-phase, metric motor with the same frame size and flange as the original EC5 PC motors available. My understanding is that they can be used with a KB Electronics KBMA-24D AC motor control 9533 to achieve variable speed. But I'm not clear about whether that variable speed can be controlled via Acorn. If so, that would be great. Constant surface speed would be a plus. If not, DRO would be acceptable.

Hi, Jasen. We've talked. I'm all over the stuff you've posted. Thanks!

KR Lynn
 

Thanks, Marty. 

FWIW, the 63 B34, 3-phase, 2-pole (3600 RPM), 5 HP motor I've found that should work as an easy replacement for the EC5 PC's original motor is a Lafert (Italian-made) Model ST63L2 with a list price of $393. Leeson also makes a 63 B34 3-phase motor, but only 1/3 HP. The original motors were rated at 2/3 HP. Lafert also offers a 4-pole (1800 RPM) 63 B34 motor, but not above 1/3 HP.

If for some reason the ST63L2 doesn't sound like a good candidate for my purposes, please let me know. I'm not ready to pull the trigger (not driven by need yet), but I would like to identify the best available options.

Stupid question, but are both run and start capacitors used with the original single phase AC spindle motors in EC5 PC lathes? I was asked and didn't know. 

marty_in_mesa
 

I can't answer the question on start and run caps. I have never ER had the Emco lathe with an AC motor. The half dozen or so I've had over the years all had their DC motors.

Marty

On Jul 2, 2018 10:58 AM, "KR Lynn" <krlynn@...> wrote:

Thanks, Marty. 

FWIW, the 63 B34, 3-phase, 2-pole (3600 RPM), 5 HP motor I've found that should work as an easy replacement for the EC5 PC's original motor is a Lafert (Italian-made) Model ST63L2 with a list price of $393. Leeson also makes a 63 B34 3-phase motor, but only 1/3 HP. The original motors were rated at 2/3 HP. Lafert also offers a 4-pole (1800 RPM) 63 B34 motor, but not above 1/3 HP.

If for some reason the ST63L2 doesn't sound like a good candidate for my purposes, please let me know. I'm not ready to pull the trigger (not driven by need yet), but I would like to identify the best available options.

Stupid question, but are both run and start capacitors used with the original single phase AC spindle motors in EC5 PC lathes? I was asked and didn't know. 


Sharp.Shooter
 

I have purchased the 63 B14 (not 34) motor 0.37kw as a replacement for my AC simply cause stock one couldn’t be used with VFD I also purchased. I didn’t mount it yet, or tried it, but I did check on mounting to flange, and it was OK as much as I recall. Also, I believe a 5HP is way too much power for such a little machine. On latter question I don’t know the answer too.

Stefan

 

From: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io [mailto:Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io] On Behalf Of marty_in_mesa
Sent: 3 July, 2018 12:31 AM
To: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Emco-CNC-Users] Compact 5 PC retrofitting project

 

I can't answer the question on start and run caps. I have never ER had the Emco lathe with an AC motor. The half dozen or so I've had over the years all had their DC motors.

 

Marty

 

On Jul 2, 2018 10:58 AM, "KR Lynn" <krlynn@...> wrote:

Thanks, Marty. 

FWIW, the 63 B34, 3-phase, 2-pole (3600 RPM), 5 HP motor I've found that should work as an easy replacement for the EC5 PC's original motor is a Lafert (Italian-made) Model ST63L2 with a list price of $393. Leeson also makes a 63 B34 3-phase motor, but only 1/3 HP. The original motors were rated at 2/3 HP. Lafert also offers a 4-pole (1800 RPM) 63 B34 motor, but not above 1/3 HP.

If for some reason the ST63L2 doesn't sound like a good candidate for my purposes, please let me know. I'm not ready to pull the trigger (not driven by need yet), but I would like to identify the best available options.

Stupid question, but are both run and start capacitors used with the original single phase AC spindle motors in EC5 PC lathes? I was asked and didn't know. 

 

KR Lynn
 

Marty, were your lathes Compact 5 PCs or Compact 5 CNCs. The CNCs all had DC motors. The PC versions (which have a much smaller control box) ran on IBM PCs loaded with DOS 3.* and had single Phase AC motors (at least those sold in the US). 

KR Lynn
 

So sorry, you're right Sharp.Shooter. It's a B3/B14 face. Not sure how I got that mangled. 

Re HP, if I typed 5, I meant .5 as in 1/2. I need new glasses.

marty_in_mesa
 

Yellow compact cnc 5's.


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018, 6:51 PM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:
Marty, were your lathes Compact 5 PCs or Compact 5 CNCs. The CNCs all had DC motors. The PC versions (which have a much smaller control box) ran on IBM PCs loaded with DOS 3.* and had single Phase AC motors (at least those sold in the US). 

KR Lynn
 

I found this motor, which is available with a 63C frame and B14 face: http://www.tvtamerica.com/Metric-AC-Motors/3ph-ul-csa-ce-atex.htm

And this: http://www.tvtamerica.com/TVT-Drives.htm (see TVT Drive 1 at bottom). See also 
See also: http://www.tvtamerica.com/Smart-Motors.htm

Any thoughts?

marty_in_mesa
 

If the motor suits  your needs, I would only ask them if it is an INVERTER Duty rated motor.
I would buy the VFD elsewhere, or inquire about the pricing for it. Ensure it takes the typical 0-10VDC analog signal input

Marty

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 7:11 AM KR Lynn <krlynn@...> wrote:
I found this motor, which is available with a 63C frame and B14 face: http://www.tvtamerica.com/Metric-AC-Motors/3ph-ul-csa-ce-atex.htm

And this: http://www.tvtamerica.com/TVT-Drives.htm (see TVT Drive 1 at bottom). See also 
See also: http://www.tvtamerica.com/Smart-Motors.htm

Any thoughts?

KR Lynn
 

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 07:41 am, marty_in_mesa wrote:
I would buy the VFD elsewhere, or inquire about the pricing for it.
Thanks for the reply, Marty. Why would you buy the VFD elsewhere? What price would you expect to pay for one?