Date   
Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

@Travis_S
 

Wow, that keyboard is alot smarter than I would have thought! The square chip in the socket looks to be an Intel 80C196 , which is used in the machine axis controller "brain" as well along with another Intel micro- (8088-2 if memory serves) . This is an older, though very full featured, 16 bit microcontroller. 

Interestingly, Emco seems to have opted (at least in the axis controller) for the version of this micro with no onboard firmware memory- it is all stored externally in ROMs (EEPROMs or EPROMs I forget which). 

This may have work out well for this keyboard project- an arduino Mega 2560 can be programmed to read the ROM memory, and this likely has all of the program info store on it.
This is on my to do list for axis controllers as well.

Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

wild_kow
 

I think you may find that the 232 is for accessory keyboard and the other for PC comms.

John


From: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io <Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io> on behalf of Daneel via Groups.Io <jonas.warnqvist@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 9:16:02 AM
To: Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io <Emco-CNC-Users@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Emco-CNC-Users] RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering
 
Travis,
I think you are correct in your assumptions that it will be the same communication taking place on both electrical interfaces RS485 and RS232. Without being an electronics expert it looks like they are almost wired in parallell (I assume they are not since there is a specific keyboard sequence to switch in between). In the keyboard X9A000 the interface for RS232 is built up around LT1080CN and RS485 is driven from LTC485CN8. In the picture of the inside the left hand connector is the RS232 and the right hand (with white lettering) is RS485.

It will be very interesting to see what Calmissile/Doug can record when he starts collecting some data !
/Jonas

Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

Daneel
 

Travis,
I think you are correct in your assumptions that it will be the same communication taking place on both electrical interfaces RS485 and RS232. Without being an electronics expert it looks like they are almost wired in parallell (I assume they are not since there is a specific keyboard sequence to switch in between). In the keyboard X9A000 the interface for RS232 is built up around LT1080CN and RS485 is driven from LTC485CN8. In the picture of the inside the left hand connector is the RS232 and the right hand (with white lettering) is RS485.

It will be very interesting to see what Calmissile/Doug can record when he starts collecting some data !
/Jonas

Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

@Travis_S
 

Daneel/Jonas,

You are correct that he is skipping all of the RS485 communication  between the PC and the axis controller. In fact, in the case of linux cnc the axis controller is effectively eliminated ( it basically becomes a breakout board) as with Linuxcnc all of the control signals originate from the PC.

Our machines use rs485 in several places however. Looking at the PC Mill 50 electrical schematic posted in the files section of this site ( i am looking at page 16, "Axiscontroll x axis"), it shows that most of the signals from the axis controller board to the stepper controller board ( and the spindle control board for that matter)  are RS485 signals as well. This is verified in Rich Jones posts.

Honestly, I think this is very good news for your project :) 

What this means is that the hardware side decoding of the rs485 communication is already figured out- the Texas Instruments AM26LS31(receiver) and AM26LS32 (transmitter) chips are already documented to work at decoding the RS485 signal to normal ( sig and ground) signals. Emco seemed to really like these chips, as they use the same ones everywhere rs485 is used.

The trick from there is going to be figuring out the actual communication protocol. Rs485 is a method of transmitting a signal over long distances, but it doesnt always describe the actual protocol. You may get very lucky and find out it is RS232 (serial) over RS485 ( which I suspect it may be).

In your position, my next step would be to disassemble the keyboard enough to get good pictures of any circuit boards you may find. What you find here ( or dont find!) Will help us to figure out what we are up against in terms of communicating with this thing. 

Keep us posted!

Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

Daneel
 

Hi Travis,
I read through richjones posts in the thread.
It is very valuable information for anyone wishing to convert their PC50 to linuxcnc!
As far as I understood he is completely skipping all RS485 communication and replacing the card that does the RS485 to/from host, generates the steps and I/O processing. So in essence he built a electrical interface to preserve all driver electronics and using ie. a custom circuit board to interface to a host that is generating steps and pulses to drive the original mill drivers and sensors.
/Jonas

Re: RS-232 and RS-465 Emco Keyboard X9A000, protocol reverse engineering

Daneel
 

@Calmissile - Doug,
Thanks for offering data / insights to this challenging issue.
Whenever you have the opportunity it will be interesting to see what goes on between the keyboard and host.
I'll monitor the group and will try to respond to any questions you might have.
Thanks again!
/Jonas

Re: Ge fanuc controller

Doug Wilson
 

Ricky,
Yes, you need an Emco RS-485 ISA card for an old PC that still has ISA card slots.  These boards are extremely hard to find.  Some of us are working on alternates for this special board but it will not be a quick answer.  If you can find someone with a board for sale, the best bet would be to purchase it.  My installations are on Win 98SE.  I am  not aware if Winnc will run on XP.

Doug

Ge fanuc controller

Ricky G.
 

Hi, guy so my next intention is to run the pc50 mill with a ge fanuc controller. I was able to install the winnc program on a windows xp computer,  but it appears that the program don't see the control. What do I need to do to get signals. The control has 2 connections, one says s485 the other rs232. I try connecting both but still no communication. Do I need special card or cable?

Re: WinCam for AC88 controller needed

Doug Wilson
 

arjan,

Thanks for the clarification.  It makes sense now.  An ISO copy of your disk would probably be a solution.  Also, my machines are PCMill 100 and PC Turn 120.  If you can send me the ISO of your disk, I will try to extract what I need.

It does not appear that you have made your email address public, so here is my address

Wilson.
1448 Fulbright Ave.
Redlands, Ca.  92373

BTW, I received both RS-485 protocol analyzers and should have some time next week to do some protocol analysis on RS-485 if you are interested.  If you need any Emco hardware let me know and I will check my parts and supplies.

Thanks,
Doug

Re: WinCam for AC88 controller needed

arjan.dijk
 

I think I must disappoint you there. I have several installs on my disk, this was the only one with reference to mill 50, I have a 55. I can supply you the CD ISO if that helps. I did not use diskette

Arjan

Op do 19 sep. 2019 om 21:03 schreef <calmissile@...>:

Thanks for the reply but that solution will not work.  I have already tried several similar schemes.  The installer specifically is looking for the A: drive for input and does not have any options for the input.

I'll wait for arjan to reply since he has the source software and apparently has installed it.

Doug

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

Ricky G.
 

What, I did was just replaced the rectifier from the new power unit, I became curious to do this cuz before I ran with this problem on a different control unit, that unit had a reset button that instead of blowing fuses it just pop the reset. By looking inside the unit notice the rectifier had bubbled on th black plastic, bought a new one and that made the power to continue. On my pc50 I saw the similar rectifier and decided to try that and that's how I find out the fuse is not blowing anymore. To verify that that was the issue I reinstalled the old rectifier and again fuse blow again. Is very strange but it work, the fan go on and I'm happy. Tnx for the you guy's advise, I became a little scared.

On Thursday, September 19, 2019, 2:01:25 PM PDT, <calmissile@...> wrote:


Ricky,

Glad to hear your making progress.   A couple of comments.................. We don't know why the rectifier shorted out.  It sounds like you replaced the power supply unit rather than just the rectifier component.  If so, the cause of the original failure could be anything downstream of the rectifier component (bridge, etc).   You indicated that you ran the test with all the boards unplugged.  Electrolytic capacitors are perhaps the most common failures in all electronic equipment.  If the failed power supply has one, then it's possible that it caused the shorted rectifier.

One last note.   If one of the boards has a short, it could also be what took out the original power supply.   I would recommend to start with a Fast Blow fuse of the same value and plug your boards in one at a time to make sure that the short is not on one of them.  By using a Fast Blow fuse you are less likely to fry the new power supply.  If all goes well, you can then replace the fuse with the original specs. 

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

Doug Wilson
 

Ricky,

Glad to hear your making progress.   A couple of comments.................. We don't know why the rectifier shorted out.  It sounds like you replaced the power supply unit rather than just the rectifier component.  If so, the cause of the original failure could be anything downstream of the rectifier component (bridge, etc).   You indicated that you ran the test with all the boards unplugged.  Electrolytic capacitors are perhaps the most common failures in all electronic equipment.  If the failed power supply has one, then it's possible that it caused the shorted rectifier.

One last note.   If one of the boards has a short, it could also be what took out the original power supply.   I would recommend to start with a Fast Blow fuse of the same value and plug your boards in one at a time to make sure that the short is not on one of them.  By using a Fast Blow fuse you are less likely to fry the new power supply.  If all goes well, you can then replace the fuse with the original specs. 

Re: WinCam for AC88 controller needed

Doug Wilson
 

Thanks for the reply but that solution will not work.  I have already tried several similar schemes.  The installer specifically is looking for the A: drive for input and does not have any options for the input.

I'll wait for arjan to reply since he has the source software and apparently has installed it.

Doug

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

Ricky G.
 


Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.
,

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.
,

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.
,

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.
,

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.
,

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

Hi Steve, yes, I was able to bypass without blowing the fuse now. Before I disconnected everything and plugged the power and it was still blowing the fuse. Next I decided to check on the rectifier, the one that has 4 legs and try powering it without connecting the boards. I had a spare power unit with same rectifier so I switched them. Sure then the power continue without burning the fuse. So The problem was the rectifier. I still yet haven't connected the boards since I wanna make sure to purchase the 6.3 fuse and test everything again.

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019, 9:32:15 PM PDT, aushacker via Groups.Io <sjdavies2@...> wrote:


Hi Ricky,
probably slow blow but are you able to post some pics of the inside of the control box to confirm? I've seen a few photos but want to be sure. From what I understand the cabinet is divided in two with the power supply in the left half and the control electronics on the right. The power transformer is probably top centre, just to the left of the divide.

If anyone out there has soft copy documentation for the PC mill 50 are you able to upload to the files section?

Cheers,
Steve

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

aushacker
 

Hi Ricky,
probably slow blow but are you able to post some pics of the inside of the control box to confirm? I've seen a few photos but want to be sure. From what I understand the cabinet is divided in two with the power supply in the left half and the control electronics on the right. The power transformer is probably top centre, just to the left of the divide.

If anyone out there has soft copy documentation for the PC mill 50 are you able to upload to the files section?

Cheers,
Steve

Re: WinCam for AC88 controller needed

@Travis_S
 

Calmissile,

The nuclear option here would be an IDE to usb adapter and a newer computer- pull the hd, jumper it as a slave, boot with usb adapter plugged into modern computer. 

Then you can drag and drop all the disks onto a hard drive folder and install from there.

Not the most convienient, but should work!

Re: WinCam for AC88 controller needed

Doug Wilson
 

arjan

The last file you sent got me past the first problem and the install goes OK until I get to Disk 4.   There is something wrong with the file layout.  The two files for Disk 4 add up to about 1.6 Meg and the DSHD floppies only have a capacity of about !.44 Meg.  I tried making floppies with only one of the files and the install fails when it looks for the other file.   Not sure how to get around this since the install aborts and does not allow you to swap floppies.  Got any ideas?

Doug

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

Manfred Vormbaum
 

For what it's worth, and in an effort to save some fuses, you may want to check some of the stepper motors for shorts to ground. When you have the connectors to the motors disconnected, check each phase to ground and also check the resistance across the coils. The latter would likely require a multimeter that can measure less than 200 to 500 Ohm full scale since the DC resistance may be quite low.

Manfred

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 11:30 AM Ricky G. via Groups.Io, <lablue79=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Steve, I was using the fast acting fuse, so I need a slow blowing one then?
There's other fuses but it only blowing this 6.3L by the exterior box
All other fuses from the box boards are not blown. I see light come up, but shuts off
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 11:33:08 PM PDT, aushacker via Groups.Io <sjdavies2=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:


Hi Ricky,
nobody seems to have asked this one, are you using fast blow or slow blow fuses?

I know nothing about the PC50. The Emco machine I do have access to, a Compact 8 CNC lathe, contains a fairly hefty linear power supply. This means that the mains goes via the fuse to a large transformer followed by rectifier diodes and some large capacitors. There is a large inrush current when you first turn it on as the capacitors appear as a short circuit.

If your machine has this setup you need to be using a slow blow fuse.

Cheers,
Steve

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

Ricky G.
 

Hi Steve, I was using the fast acting fuse, so I need a slow blowing one then?
There's other fuses but it only blowing this 6.3L by the exterior box
All other fuses from the box boards are not blown. I see light come up, but shuts off

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 11:33:08 PM PDT, aushacker via Groups.Io <sjdavies2@...> wrote:


Hi Ricky,
nobody seems to have asked this one, are you using fast blow or slow blow fuses?

I know nothing about the PC50. The Emco machine I do have access to, a Compact 8 CNC lathe, contains a fairly hefty linear power supply. This means that the mains goes via the fuse to a large transformer followed by rectifier diodes and some large capacitors. There is a large inrush current when you first turn it on as the capacitors appear as a short circuit.

If your machine has this setup you need to be using a slow blow fuse.

Cheers,
Steve

Re: Pc50mill blowing fuse

aushacker
 

Hi Ricky,
nobody seems to have asked this one, are you using fast blow or slow blow fuses?

I know nothing about the PC50. The Emco machine I do have access to, a Compact 8 CNC lathe, contains a fairly hefty linear power supply. This means that the mains goes via the fuse to a large transformer followed by rectifier diodes and some large capacitors. There is a large inrush current when you first turn it on as the capacitors appear as a short circuit.

If your machine has this setup you need to be using a slow blow fuse.

Cheers,
Steve