USB rig control


Robert W5AJ
 


What's driver or setup to get rig frequency through USB?  And issue xmit ??

My rigs are rs232 K3 and helping friend with K3's

Audio setup fine, automatically.

Oh, this K3's has P3 with rs233 hooked to P3

73 W5AJ


Robert W5AJ
 

My bad

I was expecting to see USB as the option

Using the tried method of watching device manager, unplugged USB cable and reinserted.   Com4 went away then reappeared!  Sri for BW.

Also WSJT, audio input fails while doing TUNE

73 W5AJ

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 7:56 PM Robert W5AJ <woodr90@...> wrote:

What's driver or setup to get rig frequency through USB?  And issue xmit ??

My rigs are rs232 K3 and helping friend with K3's

Audio setup fine, automatically.

Oh, this K3's has P3 with rs233 hooked to P3

73 W5AJ


Jerry
 

GA All,

 

I have a question. Today, on a MARS net, I mentioned to a fellow MARS member that his audio was distorted and his signal was leaking over to the LSB. I observed this condition of his radio using my K3 and P3.

 

Since MARS has all of it’s frequencies of operation outside the amateur bands, this person quickly remarked back “So does yours” because all amateur radios transmitting outside the ham bands have this “leakage” problem.

 

Is this true about “all” ham radios? My K3 operating in the 4.6 Mhz area does not show opposite side bank leakage on another K3 with a pan adaptor.

 

Best regards,

 

Jerry, W1IE

 

 

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert W5AJ
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 20:10 PM
To: elecraft-k3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control

 

My bad

 

I was expecting to see USB as the option

 

Using the tried method of watching device manager, unplugged USB cable and reinserted.   Com4 went away then reappeared!  Sri for BW.

 

Also WSJT, audio input fails while doing TUNE

 

73 W5AJ

 

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 7:56 PM Robert W5AJ <woodr90@...> wrote:

 

What's driver or setup to get rig frequency through USB?  And issue xmit ??

 

My rigs are rs232 K3 and helping friend with K3's

 

Audio setup fine, automatically.

 

Oh, this K3's has P3 with rs233 hooked to P3

 

73 W5AJ


Jim Brown
 

On 6/13/2021 11:46 AM, Jerry wrote:
Is this true about “all” ham radios? My K3 operating in the 4.6 Mhz area does not show opposite side bank leakage on another K3 with a pan adaptor.
It has become a common problem with late model Yaesu rigs. It can also be caused by overdriving an amplifier, or by using ALC between an amp and a rig, and depending on that ALC to set TX power.

73, Jim K9YC


Jerry
 

Thank you Jim,

Before I tell this gentleman that he was both right and wrong, since I am not a RF engineer, I wanted to hear the answer from a well known and well respected engineer. You, of course, fit that description without question.

With sincere regards,

Jerry, W1IE

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 15:44 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control

On 6/13/2021 11:46 AM, Jerry wrote:
Is this true about “all” ham radios? My K3 operating in the 4.6 Mhz
area does not show opposite side bank leakage on another K3 with a pan adaptor.
It has become a common problem with late model Yaesu rigs. It can also be caused by overdriving an amplifier, or by using ALC between an amp and a rig, and depending on that ALC to set TX power.

73, Jim K9YC


Lou W7HV
 

I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.
 
Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.

 


Wes Stewart
 

Complete nonsense.

On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 11:47:11 AM MST, Jerry <w1ie@...> wrote:


GA All,

 

I have a question. Today, on a MARS net, I mentioned to a fellow MARS member that his audio was distorted and his signal was leaking over to the LSB. I observed this condition of his radio using my K3 and P3.

 

Since MARS has all of it’s frequencies of operation outside the amateur bands, this person quickly remarked back “So does yours” because all amateur radios transmitting outside the ham bands have this “leakage” problem.

 

Is this true about “all” ham radios? My K3 operating in the 4.6 Mhz area does not show opposite side bank leakage on another K3 with a pan adaptor.

 

Best regards,

 

Jerry, W1IE



Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.
Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.
Direct conversion rigs are another matter.
Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.


Colin Smithers
 

It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.

In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.

73, Colin G4CWH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.

Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.


Chuck Hill K0MV
 

Colin and Lou are correct.

Well I'm not well known in these circles, but in some circles I am.  And I am an "RF engineer" if that means competent in this area.

3rd order IM distortion goes by 2*f1 - f2 = fout, and 2*f2 - f1=fout.  f1 and f2 are in the SSB transmitted signal.  So 3rd order IM distortion in the amplifier chain produces frequency products near the transmitted signal.  The 3rd order IM products would be both above and below the SSB signal, not just the opposite sideband.

In the analog TV days the US standard (NTSC) transmitted video vestigal sideband which had the USB, the lower frequency portion of the LSB (to improve SNR), and some carrier.  3rd order IM products involving the carrier would regenerate the LSB.  That would QRM the next TV channel down.

A good reference for this is "RF Design Guide" by Peter Vizmuller c1995 Artech House, page 188.  A description of good debugging techniques too.

73,
Chuck K0MV

On 6/13/21 4:30 PM, Colin Smithers wrote:
It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.

In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.

73, Colin G4CWH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.

Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.









Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2021-06-13 6:30 PM, Colin Smithers wrote:

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.
Yes, analog TV transmitters (NTSC) were vestigial sideband
(carrier and upper sideband with a remnant lower sideband).

*However* the IMD products in an SSB transmitter will spread
out on both sides. Given that the male voice has significant
energy in the 200-600 Hz and 1600-2700 Hz formats, the IMD
energy to +/-5.2 KHz (3rd order), +/-7.5 KHz (5th order),
+/- 9.5 KHz (7th order) and more (9th and higher) will be
significant, particularly with heavy clipping.

With many of the "12V" final rigs, the 3rd order IMD is only
-25dBc and 7th can be as bad as -40 dBc (see Sherwood's recent
writings/measurements). Icom and Yaesu are particularly
notorious but the K3/K3s is no saint.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 6:30 PM, Colin Smithers wrote:
It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.
In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.
I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.
73, Colin G4CWH
-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control
On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.
Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.


Lou W7HV
 

As an unknown and disrespected engineer, I'll add the following.  The TX side band consists of ~3kHz band of RF frequencies.  Even if the carrier was present, there's no audio signal to mix with it to produce the other sideband.  The carrier would have to mix with the TX signal to recreate the audio signal, and that audio signal would then have to mix with the carrier again to produce two sidebands at the TX frequency, including the undesired one. I think that's a tough one to pull off, even for Yaesu. ;-)


Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2021-06-13 7:24 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I think that's a tough one to pull off, even for Yaesu.
It's simple 3rd order IMD. If the carrier is at 10 MHz and the
audio is at 10.003 MHz ... 2*10.000-10.003 = 9.997 MHz. Instant
LSB.

Without a carrier it is more difficult, but say one has 200 Hz
and 2400 Hz audio present at the same time: 2*10.0002-10.0024 =
9.998 MHz. It's not a perfect LSB but it is a lot of energy
in the LSB spectrum. Remember, Sherwood measures 3rd order
IMD of many of the rigs with 12V finals in the -25 dBc range
(-31 to -34 dB pep) and fifth order no better than -30 dBc.

-30 dBc is *one watt* of IMD power with a 1KW amp (1 mW for
a 100 W transceiver) *assuming* the 1KW amplifier is *totally*
clean (and many of the LDMOS amps are as bad as a 12V rig).

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 7:24 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
As an unknown and disrespected engineer, I'll add the following.  The TX side band consists of ~3kHz band of RF frequencies.  Even if the carrier was present, there's no audio signal to mix with it to produce the other sideband.  The carrier would have to mix with the TX signal to recreate the audio signal, and that audio signal would then have to mix with the carrier again to produce two sidebands at the TX frequency, including the undesired one. I think that's a tough one to pull off, even for Yaesu. ;-)


W2XJ
 

There is no carrier in the ATSC signal, just a low level pilot.

On June 13, 2021 6:30 PM Colin Smithers <colin@crsmithers.com> wrote:


It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.

In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.

73, Colin G4CWH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.

Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.









Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2021-06-13 7:07 PM, W2XJ wrote:
There is no carrier in the ATSC signal, just a low level pilot.
I said, "Analog UHF TV" ... in case you have forgotten analog TV
that is NTSC (not ATSC) and was vestigial sideband *with carrier*.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 7:07 PM, W2XJ wrote:
There is no carrier in the ATSC signal, just a low level pilot.

On June 13, 2021 6:30 PM Colin Smithers <colin@crsmithers.com> wrote:


It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.

In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.

73, Colin G4CWH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.

Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.


W2XJ
 

Fine, but I was responding to Colon.

On June 14, 2021 3:04 PM Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@subich.com> wrote:


On 2021-06-13 7:07 PM, W2XJ wrote:
> There is no carrier in the ATSC signal, just a low level pilot.

I said, "Analog UHF TV" ... in case you have forgotten analog TV
that is NTSC (not ATSC) and was vestigial sideband *with carrier*.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 7:07 PM, W2XJ wrote:

There is no carrier in the ATSC signal, just a low level pilot.




On June 13, 2021 6:30 PM Colin Smithers <colin@crsmithers.com> wrote:


It can only re-appear if carrier is present for the wanted sideband to mix with in the non-linear amplifier.

In an SSB transmitter with good carrier suppression it is not possible to regenerate the unwanted sideband through poor IMD in the final stages. In my experience the K3 has negligible carrier content. Given that, It would require an inappropriate TX filter or TX filter adjustment for the unwanted sideband to truly be present.

I think in TV transmitters there is still carrier present.

73, Colin G4CWH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 10:13 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] USB rig control


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden
> that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.

Au contraire! IMD in amplifier stages *will* regenerate the missing
sideband. I saw with my own eyes (spectrum analyzer) in the days of
analog UHF TV ... in "high efficiency" Klystrode/IOT amplifiers. It
was necessary to do significant precorrection (early "Pure Signal")
to prevent the lower sideband from exceeding the "spectral mask"
requirements for protecting the next lower channel.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-13 4:45 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
I am not a well known engineer and certainly not a respected engineer.  It is my understanding that normal superhets produce SSB by mixing audio with the LO up to the IF where the unwanted sideband is stripped off by the same xtal filters used for RX.  This is fixed and doesn't change with TX band or frequency because mixing to the TX frequency occurs after that.  Subsequent distortion in the rig or external amplifier can broaden that signal but can't create and add back the opposite side band.  So, based on that, I would think if someone is hearing the opposite sideband, there's a problem with the rig unrelated to being used outside the ham bands.

Direct conversion rigs are another matter.

Perhaps a well known and respected engineer will weight in.