Topics

Transmit Phase Noise

Rob Sherwood
 

Darn, the picture was stripped out by the reflector.   I’ll work around this somehow.   Rob, NC0B

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Rob Sherwood
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 10:03 AM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] FW: Transmit Phase Noise

 

Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 watts for four rigs.

Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.

ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).

Data from a Contest University presentation of mine.

Rob

NC0B

 

From: Rob Sherwood
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 9:54 AM
To: Rob Sherwood.
Subject: Transmit Phase Noise

 

 


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Rob Sherwood
 

Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.

Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.

ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).

Data from Contest University presentations of mine.

Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.

Rob

NC0B

 

Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters

Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

 

Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143

IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132

IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138

IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a

TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a

FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121

 

Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140

IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133

IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a

FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117

TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a

IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120

 

* = Power level was 35 watts

n/a = data not available

Rev D

 

Lou Kolb
 

Thanks, Rob. Putting it into text made it accessible to those of us
using screen readers. Lou WA3MIX

On 1/12/19, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:
Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.
Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so
don't expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.
ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM
noise).
Data from Contest University presentations of mine.
Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with
frequency offset.
Rob
NC0B

Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters
Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

Rig @ 100 watts 10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 20 kHz offset,
dBc/Hz 100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S -141
n/a -143
IC-7300 -130
n/a -132
IC-7851 -129
n/a -138
IC-7610 -127
-129 n/a
TS-890S -120
-129 n/a
FTdx-3000 -120
n/a -121

Rig @ 30 watts 10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 20 kHz offset,
dBc/Hz 100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S -132
n/a -140
IC-7851 -123
n/a -133
IC-7610 -122*
-124* n/a
FTdx-3000 -117
n/a -117
TS-890S -113*
-122* n/a
IC-7300 -112
n/a -120

* = Power level was 35 watts
n/a = data not available
Rev D




Rob Sherwood
 

If anyone wants a PDF of the data, please send me an email direct to rob@...

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Lou Kolb
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2019 12:43 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Transmit Phase Noise



Thanks, Rob. Putting it into text made it accessible to those of us
using screen readers. Lou WA3MIX

On 1/12/19, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:
Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.
Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so
don't expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.
ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM
noise).
Data from Contest University presentations of mine.
Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with
frequency offset.
Rob
NC0B

Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters
Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

Rig @ 100 watts 10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S -141 n/a -143
IC-7300 -130 n/a -132
IC-7851 -129 n/a -138
IC-7610 -127 -129 n/a
TS-890S -120 -129 n/a
FTdx-3000 -120 n/a -121

Rig @ 30 watts 10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz 100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S -132 n/a -140
IC-7851 -123 n/a -133
IC-7610 -122* -124* n/a
FTdx-3000 -117 n/a -117
TS-890S -113* -122* n/a
IC-7300 -112 n/a -120

* = Power level was 35 watts
n/a = data not available
Rev D

Everett N4CY
 

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the info...

Everett N4CY

In a message dated 1/12/2019 12:06:30 PM Central Standard Time, rob@... writes:

Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.

Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.

ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).

Data from Contest University presentations of mine.

Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.

Rob

NC0B

 

Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters

Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

 

Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143

IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132

IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138

IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a

TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a

FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121

 

Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140

IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133

IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a

FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117

TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a

IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120

 

* = Power level was 35 watts

n/a = data not available

Rev D


harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Thank you for posting the data.  Looks interesting and a bit surprising. However you forgot my really cool 1 yr old FTdx5000MPL... You said it was a bit better then the FTdx3000. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up.  The radio was from a trade and never used. As of December it was only 1 yr old and more radio, with more features then I could ever imagine or expect.... My 3 main radios are K3/100 with the KSYN3A added, A IC-7300 that I run mostly at 30 watts driving my KPA500 and KAT500 and the FTdx5000MPL. Seems from you list I might actually have 3 fairly decent radios. Oh I can not forget my take it everywhere jewel, the KX2.  So if you do have the 5000MPL data I would love to see it. Post here or direct email. Your choice.

73 Harry K7ZOV

On Saturday, January 12, 2019, 11:06:30 AM MST, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:


Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.

Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.

ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).

Data from Contest University presentations of mine.

Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.

Rob

NC0B

 

Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters

Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

 

Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143

IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132

IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138

IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a

TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a

FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121

 

Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140

IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133

IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a

FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117

TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a

IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120

 

* = Power level was 35 watts

n/a = data not available

Rev D

 

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

From the ARRL Product Review, The FTdx5000 has transmit phase noise
of -120 dBc @ 2 KHz, and approximately -130dBc from 10 KHz to 1 MHz.
As is typical of recent Yaesu products, the phase noise is 6 to 10 dB
worse than similar transceivers from other manufacturers.

At one time Icom was the king of dirty synthesizes but Yaesu hold that
crown for the last decade or so.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2019-01-12 4:23 PM, harry latterman via Groups.Io wrote:
Thank you for posting the data.  Looks interesting and a bit surprising. However you forgot my really cool 1 yr old FTdx5000MPL... You said it was a bit better then the FTdx3000. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up.  The radio was from a trade and never used. As of December it was only 1 yr old and more radio, with more features then I could ever imagine or expect.... My 3 main radios are K3/100 with the KSYN3A added, A IC-7300 that I run mostly at 30 watts driving my KPA500 and KAT500 and the FTdx5000MPL. Seems from you list I might actually have 3 fairly decent radios. Oh I can not forget my take it everywhere jewel, the KX2.  So if you do have the 5000MPL data I would love to see it. Post here or direct email. Your choice.
73 Harry K7ZOV
On Saturday, January 12, 2019, 11:06:30 AM MST, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:
Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.
Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.
ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).
Data from Contest University presentations of mine.
Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.
Rob
NC0B
Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters
Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels
Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143
IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132
IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138
IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a
TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a
FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121
Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140
IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133
IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a
FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117
TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a
IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120
* = Power level was 35 watts
n/a = data not available
Rev D

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Thanks Joe. Interesting to know.  Since I will never use a AMP with the radio and I do run typically 100 to 150 watts, I hope that cleans up some of my TX.  The RX and all the hooks are very impressive then the bands are crowded and a mess. I am still a fanboy of Elecraft and always will be. Guess that is why I still have my K-Line and KX2.  In the past it was K2/10, K2/100 (in various configurations), K1-4, KX1, KX3 and KX-Line and two K3's (now one). My Icom list is far longer, but with the exception of a IC-756PROII most where in the shake for a year or less. So far I have had a K3 for over 10 yrs and counting. Thank you again

73 GN Harry K7ZOV

On Saturday, January 12, 2019, 8:07:47 PM MST, Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@...> wrote:



From the ARRL Product Review, The FTdx5000 has transmit phase noise
of -120 dBc @ 2 KHz, and approximately -130dBc from 10 KHz to 1 MHz.
As is typical of recent Yaesu products, the phase noise is 6 to 10 dB
worse than similar transceivers from other manufacturers.

At one time Icom was the king of dirty synthesizes but Yaesu hold that
crown for the last decade or so.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-01-12 4:23 PM, harry latterman via Groups.Io wrote:
>  Thank you for posting the data.  Looks interesting and a bit surprising. However you forgot my really cool 1 yr old FTdx5000MPL... You said it was a bit better then the FTdx3000. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up.  The radio was from a trade and never used. As of December it was only 1 yr old and more radio, with more features then I could ever imagine or expect.... My 3 main radios are K3/100 with the KSYN3A added, A IC-7300 that I run mostly at 30 watts driving my KPA500 and KAT500 and the FTdx5000MPL. Seems from you list I might actually have 3 fairly decent radios. Oh I can not forget my take it everywhere jewel, the KX2.  So if you do have the 5000MPL data I would love to see it. Post here or direct email. Your choice.
> 73 Harry K7ZOV
>
>      On Saturday, January 12, 2019, 11:06:30 AM MST, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:

>   
> Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.

> Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.

> ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).

> Data from Contest University presentations of mine.

> Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.

> Rob

> NC0B

>   

> Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters

> Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels

>   

> Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

> K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143

> IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132

> IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138

> IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a

> TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a

> FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121

>   

> Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz

> K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140

> IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133

> IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a

> FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117

> TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a

> IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120

>   

> * = Power level was 35 watts

> n/a = data not available

> Rev D

>   
>   
>
>



southdaleus
 

Rob,

How about the K3 with the old bipolar transistors?  Is there much difference or none at all?

Dale, K9VUJ



On 12, Jan 2019, at 12:06, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:

Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.
Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.
ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).
Data from Contest University presentations of mine.
Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.
Rob
NC0B
 
Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters
Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels
 
Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143
IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132
IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138
IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a
TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a
FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121
 
Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140
IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133
IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a
FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117
TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a
IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120
 
* = Power level was 35 watts
n/a = data not available
Rev D
 

Rob Sherwood
 

Hi Dale,

I don’t know, but I doubt the type of transistor is significant. The really close-in noise is affected by the cooling fans, an issue that N0QO and I found a year ago.  Elecraft supposedly fixed that with an electrolytic capacitor addition to filter the electrical noise from the fans.  I had to do the same thing with my aftermarket fan cooling kit for the IC-781.  

Rob. NC0B


On Jan 13, 2019, at 4:23 AM, dalej via Groups.Io <dalej2@...> wrote:

Rob,

How about the K3 with the old bipolar transistors?  Is there much difference or none at all?

Dale, K9VUJ



On 12, Jan 2019, at 12:06, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:

Here is some data I have at both 100 watts and 30 or 35 watts for six rigs.
Different lab, different measuring equipment, different rig samples, so don’t expect absolute correlation with ARRL data.
ARRL lab data only measures phase noise, not composite noise (phase and AM noise).
Data from Contest University presentations of mine.
Note: While the listing are sorted by column 1, the ranking varies with frequency offset.
Rob
NC0B
 
Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters
Best at maximum power output, but degrades at lower power levels
 
Rig @ 100 watts                10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -141                                       n/a                                         -143
IC-7300                                 -130                                       n/a                                         -132
IC-7851                                 -129                                       n/a                                         -138
IC-7610                                 -127                                       -129                                       n/a
TS-890S                                -120                                       -129                                       n/a
FTdx-3000                           -120                                       n/a                                         -121
 
Rig @ 30 watts                   10 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     20 kHz offset, dBc/Hz     100 kHz offset, dBc/Hz
K3S                                         -132                                       n/a                                         -140
IC-7851                                 -123                                       n/a                                         -133
IC-7610                                 -122*                                     -124*                                     n/a
FTdx-3000                           -117                                       n/a                                         -117
TS-890S                                -113*                                     -122*                                     n/a
IC-7300                                 -112                                       n/a                                         -120
 
* = Power level was 35 watts
n/a = data not available
Rev D
 



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