Topics

6M Es antenna question

Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI







Everett N4CY
 

Hi Mike,

I am using a Hentenna, you can find it on the web. My Hentenna, is only about 30' high at the top and it is way better than a dopole. I have also been experimenting with a 6 meter collinear array, which looks better than the Hentenna. Here is the link to the collinear http://www.ve1zac.com/6m%20array.htm. The array is difficult to tune and the dimensions he uses do not work. To find the correct length for the dipole and the other elements, I first made up a dipole and adjusted it until I found the correct length to reach the desired frequency, then I made the other 3 elements the same length. Also the length he uses for the phasing stubs is not correct. I was able to cut/tune mine using my MFJ259B.

I did not set it up as OCF as he did, but instead cut the fed element in the middle and used a 4:1 balun.

With the two antennas, I have looked 48 states and 17 countries. A beam would , by far, be the best way to go, however, I am in a HOA and have to everything with wires in the trees.

Everett N4CY

In a message dated 7/14/2018 7:39:44 AM Central Standard Time, k9jri@... writes:

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI



Charlie T, k3ICH
 

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI







Rob Sherwood
 

Directivity is always your friend, often even more so than gain.  A yagi with a clean pattern reduces noise, QRM and QRN.  A 4 or 5 element yagi on 6m would be much more useful than stacking and phasing two dipoles.   On HF the same is true, and I am very lucky to have 5 elements on 10, 15 and 4 elements on 20m.  Rob, NC0B

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Charlie T, k3ICH
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 7:07 AM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

 

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.

 

For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.

 

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----

To: Groups IO

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM

Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

 

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation .

 

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

 

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com

Michael Kopec
 

It varies with the E-cloud. See ARRL " Beyond the Line of Sight" publication.  re: pg 41.  It seams to me both a single dipole and stacked elements would both be beneficial depending on the cloud.  Switching between the two would tell the story. de K8NS

On Saturday, July 14, 2018, 8:39:44 AM EDT, Michael Blake via Groups.Io <k9jri@...> wrote:


Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI







Michael Kopec
 

Dear Mike;   I do not know if this helps to answer ur question. On 6M,  I run both a 2 element Moxon at 27 ft and a vertical GP at 18ft.  It amazes me that at times that the GP receives a signal stronger than the Moxon.  Yes the moxon is rotated in the correct direction.  I have also experienced that the signal off the back of the Moxon is stronger than when rotated toward the station.  VHF propagation is amazing. de K8NS

On Saturday, July 14, 2018, 8:39:44 AM EDT, Michael Blake via Groups.Io <k9jri@...> wrote:


Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI







Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

Thanks Everette, the Hentenna is an interesting design.  I will take a peek at it.

73 - Mike - K9JRI






On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:05 AM, Everett Sharp via Groups.Io <everettsharp@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I am using a Hentenna, you can find it on the web. My Hentenna, is only about 30' high at the top and it is way better than a dopole. I have also been experimenting with a 6 meter collinear array, which looks better than the Hentenna. Here is the link to the collinear http://www.ve1zac.com/6m%20array.htm. The array is difficult to tune and the dimensions he uses do not work. To find the correct length for the dipole and the other elements, I first made up a dipole and adjusted it until I found the correct length to reach the desired frequency, then I made the other 3 elements the same length. Also the length he uses for the phasing stubs is not correct. I was able to cut/tune mine using my MFJ259B.

I did not set it up as OCF as he did, but instead cut the fed element in the middle and used a 4:1 balun.

With the two antennas, I have looked 48 states and 17 countries. A beam would , by far, be the best way to go, however, I am in a HOA and have to everything with wires in the trees.

Everett N4CY

In a message dated 7/14/2018 7:39:44 AM Central Standard Time, k9jri@... writes:

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI




Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI








Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

Rob, thank you very much.  I do understand the fact that a 4 or 5 element beam would be better but that is not possible in this situation.

Do you have any information regarding the angle that Es stuff comes in?

Michael Blake






On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:44 AM, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:

Directivity is always your friend, often even more so than gain.  A yagi with a clean pattern reduces noise, QRM and QRN.  A 4 or 5 element yagi on 6m would be much more useful than stacking and phasing two dipoles.   On HF the same is true, and I am very lucky to have 5 elements on 10, 15 and 4 elements on 20m.  Rob, NC0B
 
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Charlie T, k3ICH
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 7:07 AM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question
 
Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question
 
Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation .
 
My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly. Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?
 
Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI
 
 
 
 

 

 
 

If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com


Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

Thanks for the ARRL reference Mike.  I will get that document and see what I can learn.  From what I had read it seemed that being able to switch between higher/lower/both might be beneficial.

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 11:05 AM, Michael Kopec via Groups.Io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:

It varies with the E-cloud. See ARRL " Beyond the Line of Sight" publication.  re: pg 41.  It seams to me both a single dipole and stacked elements would both be beneficial depending on the cloud.  Switching between the two would tell the story. de K8NS

On Saturday, July 14, 2018, 8:39:44 AM EDT, Michael Blake via Groups.Io <k9jri@...> wrote:


Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI








Vic Goncharsky
 

Mike,
Adding the second dipole with extra feedlines, transformers, splitters etc does not make much sense.
6m yagi are easy to built, I remember building one during my ER/K1WE operation. it took about 3 hours work with UY5HF.
I recommend the DK7ZB design. Using his 6el design http://www.qsl.net/dk7zb/6m/628.htm and reached the 6m DXCC last month which took 4 years to get. Moving slowly towards VUCC 500 as well.
GL with your Magic Band activity.

73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests), P.E.
UARL Technical and VHF Committies
DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone)
DXCC card checker (160 meters).

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 7/14/18, Michael Blake via Groups.Io <k9jri=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question
To: "Groups IO" <Elecraft-K3@groups.io>
Date: Saturday, July 14, 2018, 3:34 PM

Having a ton
of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my
KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet
elevation.
My
question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If
I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of
maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred
angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random
depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the
stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 -
Mike - K9JRI

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI








Rob Sherwood
 

No I don’t know about the angle on 6m.  On 6m any antenna would have lots of lobes due to height above ground in wavelengths.   Rob, NC0B


On Jul 14, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Michael Blake via Groups.Io <k9jri@...> wrote:

Rob, thank you very much.  I do understand the fact that a 4 or 5 element beam would be better but that is not possible in this situation.

Do you have any information regarding the angle that Es stuff comes in?

Michael Blake






On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:44 AM, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:

Directivity is always your friend, often even more so than gain.  A yagi with a clean pattern reduces noise, QRM and QRN.  A 4 or 5 element yagi on 6m would be much more useful than stacking and phasing two dipoles.   On HF the same is true, and I am very lucky to have 5 elements on 10, 15 and 4 elements on 20m.  Rob, NC0B
 
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Charlie T, k3ICH
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 7:07 AM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question
 
Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
To: Groups IO
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question
 
Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation .
 
My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly. Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?
 
Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI
 
 
 
 

 

 
 

If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com




If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
 

A pair of crossed folded dipoles fed together with a 4:1 balun makes for an omni directional pattern and horizontal  polarization.  Commonly known as a turnstile antenna.

A turnstile antenna, or crossed-dipole antenna,is a radio antenna consisting of a set of two identical dipole or folded dipole antennas mounted at right angles to each other and fed in phase quadrature; the two currents applied to the dipoles are 90° out of phase.  The name reflects the notion the antenna looks like a turnstile when mounted horizontally. The antenna can be used in two possible modes.   In normal mode the antenna radiates horizontally polarized radio waves perpendicular to its axis. In axial mode the antenna radiates circularly polarized radiation along its axis.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 7/14/2018 1:20 PM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI









Rick Bates, NK7I
 

Or a J Pole (if you can avoid proximity to it, they're a mite picky and require a coax balun at the antenna feed).

With the cost of copper, price is variable but use 3/4" not half inch.  It's much more stable in winds.

Rick nhc


On 7/14/2018 11:20 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI









Michael Blake <k9jri@...>
 

Thanks Rick.  I have not tried or considered any vertical antennas as my understanding is that there is very little polarity shift via Es and that most of the signals start out as horizontally polarized signals.  Random polarity on F layer propagation but not so on E layer propagation.  It is also my understanding the Es signals come in at a very low angle which was the key factor in looking at the stacked dipoles.

My understanding might be all wet though which might make a vertical a good choice.

73 - Mike - K9JRI





On Jul 14, 2018, at 3:57 PM, Rick WA6NHC <wa6nhc@...> wrote:

Or a J Pole (if you can avoid proximity to it, they're a mite picky and require a coax balun at the antenna feed).

With the cost of copper, price is variable but use 3/4" not half inch.  It's much more stable in winds.

Rick nhc


On 7/14/2018 11:20 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI










Rick Bates, NK7I
 

With a recent opening, I ran a test using PSKReporter as the data source.

I have a 6M halo (square shaped half wave dipole, folded back on itself, configured horizontally), the 6M J pole and the 160M inverted L antenna (native match ~3.4:1, used a tuner).  Essentially all are omni configured.  That's as level a playing field as I managed.

I sent out some CQ on FT8 (100 watts), noted where I was heard.

Halo, not bad, a few over a dozen hits.
J Pole, better, double the numbers
Inverted L was the best of the three , about 30 hits (likely due to gain from length AND both vertical and horizontal factors); BUT some of the original hit spots didn't hear me...  I'll put that off to a cloud shift, it's not consistent at my latitude (Idaho, almost Canada).

I was a paid fire line captain once upon a time.  I learned: every time you make a choice, you eliminate options.  Having options (even under HOA oppression) is always a better plan.  Having options kept one alive.

The point is, play around.  No two days on E are the same, you don't always know where the cloud is... be flexible.

Rick nhc


On 7/14/2018 1:06 PM, Michael Blake via Groups.Io wrote:
Thanks Rick.  I have not tried or considered any vertical antennas as my understanding is that there is very little polarity shift via Es and that most of the signals start out as horizontally polarized signals.  Random polarity on F layer propagation but not so on E layer propagation.  It is also my understanding the Es signals come in at a very low angle which was the key factor in looking at the stacked dipoles.

My understanding might be all wet though which might make a vertical a good choice.

73 - Mike - K9JRI





On Jul 14, 2018, at 3:57 PM, Rick WA6NHC <wa6nhc@...> wrote:

Or a J Pole (if you can avoid proximity to it, they're a mite picky and require a coax balun at the antenna feed).

With the cost of copper, price is variable but use 3/4" not half inch.  It's much more stable in winds.

Rick nhc


On 7/14/2018 11:20 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI











Rob Sherwood
 

A turnstile is what WWV is using on 25 MHz.  Rob, NC0B


On Jul 14, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX <rmcgraw@...> wrote:

A pair of crossed folded dipoles fed together with a 4:1 balun makes for an omni directional pattern and horizontal  polarization.  Commonly known as a turnstile antenna.

A turnstile antenna, or crossed-dipole antenna,is a radio antenna consisting of a set of two identical dipole or folded dipole antennas mounted at right angles to each other and fed in phase quadrature; the two currents applied to the dipoles are 90° out of phase.  The name reflects the notion the antenna looks like a turnstile when mounted horizontally. The antenna can be used in two possible modes.   In normal mode the antenna radiates horizontally polarized radio waves perpendicular to its axis. In axial mode the antenna radiates circularly polarized radiation along its axis.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 7/14/2018 1:20 PM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
To: Groups IO
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI











If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com

Mel Farrer, K6KBE
 

The "egg beater" antenna is the same idea, but with loops.  Horz polarized in the plane to the surface and circularized straight up.  We used it in mobile service in the 60-70's in 2 meter SSB.  Satellite also.  

Mel, K6KBE



From: Rob Sherwood <rob@...>
To: "Elecraft-K3@groups.io" <Elecraft-K3@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

A turnstile is what WWV is using on 25 MHz.  Rob, NC0B


On Jul 14, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX <rmcgraw@...> wrote:

A pair of crossed folded dipoles fed together with a 4:1 balun makes for an omni directional pattern and horizontal  polarization.  Commonly known as a turnstile antenna.
A turnstile antenna, or crossed-dipole antenna,is a radio antenna consisting of a set of two identical dipole or folded dipole antennas mounted at right angles to each other and fed in phase quadrature; the two currents applied to the dipoles are 90° out of phase.  The name reflects the notion the antenna looks like a turnstile when mounted horizontally. The antenna can be used in two possible modes.   In normal mode the antenna radiates horizontally polarized radio waves perpendicular to its axis. In axial mode the antenna radiates circularly polarized radiation along its axis.
73
Bob, K4TAX

On 7/14/2018 1:20 PM, Charlie T, k3ICH wrote:
In that case, you might try a 5/8 wavelength vertical, or maybe even a co-linear,  vertical stacked array.
It would be omni-directinal, but would offer some gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

I agree Charlie that a 3 element beam would be better but all of my antennas are in the trees in a very dense HOA neighborhood.  A dipole works pretty well oriented broadside 20 degrees/ 200 degrees.  

While the second phased dipole is mechanically a pain the real question was about the angle that Es stuff favors.

73 - Mike - K9JRI







On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Charlie T, k3ICH <pincon@...> wrote:

Personally, for the little extra a second diploe would add, I don't feel it would be worth the effort.
 
For the effort to add another dipole with the supports, feed line etc.,  you may be better off using a small 3 or 4 element Yagi if you can.  Depending on your location, you may not even have to rotate it, since you'll have about a 90 degree horizontal beam width, and this will net you around +6dB of forward gain.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
----- Original Message ----- 
To: Groups IO
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] 6M Es antenna question

Having a ton of fun working FT8 via Es on 50.313 with both my K3s and my KX3. My antenna is a simple dipole at about 30 feet elevation.

My question regards the angle that Es signals arrive.  If I stacked another dipole at 12 feet lower the angle of maximum gain lowers significantly.  Is the preferred angle of arrival/departure on an Es signal completely random depending on the distance from the E cloud or would the stacked dipoles (Lazy H) always be better?

Very 73 - Mike - K9JRI











If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com


Steve VE3RX
 

Any 6M beam would probably perform better than any "stacked dipole". For 6M, 10ft high is 1/2 wavelength, and angle of propagation would probably be very similar to 10M. 20ft high is a full wavelength, and at that point (and higher), angle to horizon gets lower.
That said, propagation on 6M can be very unpredictable. I started off with a discone antenna and 10W in the 1990's. After 4 months of nothing heard, the band opened up and I worked steady contacts for over 2 hours with that antenna and 10W.
Another example, I have a 4 element beam, and had it pointed NW during the past CQ WW VHF contest last weekend (on FT8). I heard a G8 calling CQ off the side of the beam! I swung to north the best I could (limit of rotation), and worked the G8. I rotated thru south back to NE degrees (Europe) and worked a 9A5 station. After that, that path was gone, dead. Lasted all of 5 minutes up here in the north...
All VHF weak signal operation is horizontal, propagation is better with that, in most cases. My case with the vertical discone was due to a real solar "opening" happening. If you plan to work a lot of FT8, get a small 6M beam and a rotor on a short mast/tower/pipe/etc.

However, if limited to wire antennas, put up two if you can, at opposite orientations. That would give better chance to hear signals from different directions. Adding a vertical may help in a few, uncommon, cases. If you have a radio with dual receivers, plug two antennas in at the same time and try diversity receive.

Bottom line, 6M signals can be very unpredictable and sometimes surprise you. That is the interesting part about the "magic band". There may be cases where your simple dipole is just as good as anything else (not often, but possible)