Date   

Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

neal
 

Or just order all of the filters, five in each of the two receivers
and run your own evaluations. A true metrologist....Since I have no
antennas I could afford that option.

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@...> wrote:

According to Monica at Elecraft, it's possible to swap
the standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole filter for either the 2.8 kHz 8-pole or
the 400 Hz 8-pole for an incremental $90 ($30 credit plus the
standard $120 charge for 8-pole filters), but only the 2.8 kHz
and 400 Hz may be substituted for the standard filter.

Now if we only knew if there were any difference in
IMD/BDR performance we could make a rational decision...

73, Bill W4ZV


Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

I received the following correction from Eric WA6HHQ. I did get my
previous info directly from Elecraft but apparently miscopied her name.

Hi Bill,

This is incorrect. The 2.7 kHz 5-pole can only be swapped for a 2.8
kHz or possibly the 2.1 kHz 8 pole filters. We require at least one
SSB b/w filter in each K3 as it ships since we must also transmit
through the filter for SSB and data modes. Transmitting through the
2.1 kHz filter will limit your tx bandwidth to that value. ( I'm not
aware of many choosing the 2.1 as their only SSB filter - I may drop
that as a swap option to make sure no overly narrow TX K3s get out
there and confuse the market.)

I'll post some more detailed DR numbers on the 5 pole vs 8 pole
filters in the next couple of days. The short answer is that the 5
pole filters have slightly less IMD3 dynamic range and a wider shape
factor than the 8 pole filters, but both are very good. The 250 Hz
8-pole and the 200 Hz 5 pole are both at least 95+ dB DR3 at 5 kHz,
with the 8 pole beating out the 5 pole by several dB. We've been
testing a number of each filter on a range of K3s to make sure we can
conservatively spec them across filter variations and rig variations. :-)

One other note - The sales person you talked to is Annika. There is no
Monica at Elecraft, unless they are hiding her somewhere! ;-) She was
clear on which filters could be swapped for the 2.7, but I'll check
with her for sure tomorrow.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
(Now back to work!)


Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "neal" <nealwh@...> wrote:

Or just order all of the filters, five in each of the two receivers
and run your own evaluations. A true metrologist....Since I have no
antennas I could afford that option.
You'll need ~$1100 for the filters plus two HP 8640B Signal
Generators, a couple of precision attenuators, a hybrid combiner and a
True-RMS responding meter (and some other bits and pieces).

Where I live you could buy several acres for that amount and put up
some decent antennas! :-)

73, Bill


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

David Ferrington, M0XDF
 

I don't know were your QTH is, but I might come live there.
Over here, the survey would cost more than that - just one acre (with
domestic use and no house yet) would cost ~ £1,000,000, that's about
$2,000,000 at current exchange rate.


On 29/6/07 11:41, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@yahoo.com> sent:

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "neal" <nealwh@...> wrote:

Or just order all of the filters, five in each of the two receivers
and run your own evaluations. A true metrologist....Since I have no
antennas I could afford that option.
You'll need ~$1100 for the filters plus two HP 8640B Signal
Generators, a couple of precision attenuators, a hybrid combiner and a
True-RMS responding meter (and some other bits and pieces).

Where I live you could buy several acres for that amount and put up
some decent antennas! :-)

73, Bill
--
A successful man is one who makes more money than a wife can spend. A
successful woman is one who can find such a man.
-Lana Turner, actress (1921-1995)


Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "David Ferrington, M0XDF"
<M0XDF@...> wrote:

I don't know were your QTH is, but I might come live there.
I have 55+ acres for sale, mostly wooded in hardwoods including a
couple of spring-fed brooks, lots of deer and wild turkeys. It's
yours for $100,000 (50k pounds).

73, Bill

P.S. We don't have people planting car bombs in our small town (New
London, NC). :-(


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

David Ferrington, M0XDF
 

Permission to build a home, put up antenna farm, power etc.

You guys have just way too much space!


We don't have car bombs either (at the moment) - in fact I've never heard a
car bomb - seen some of the damage, but that was a long time ago.
Latest issues were suicide bombers and that was a couple of years ago now.


On 29/6/07 13:03, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@yahoo.com> sent:

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "David Ferrington, M0XDF"
<M0XDF@...> wrote:

I don't know were your QTH is, but I might come live there.
I have 55+ acres for sale, mostly wooded in hardwoods including a
couple of spring-fed brooks, lots of deer and wild turkeys. It's
yours for $100,000 (50k pounds).

73, Bill

P.S. We don't have people planting car bombs in our small town (New
London, NC). :-(


--
A bit of fragrance always clings to the hand that gives the rose.
-Chinese proverb


Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

neal
 

Had all that equipment and much more available when I retired in 1996.
Guess I am also interested in some of that Antenna land.

Guess I will wait for more of those 'sun spots':-)
neal/n6nw

;l --- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@...> wrote:


--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "neal" <nealwh@> wrote:

Or just order all of the filters, five in each of the two receivers
and run your own evaluations. A true metrologist....Since I have no
antennas I could afford that option.
You'll need ~$1100 for the filters plus two HP 8640B Signal
Generators, a couple of precision attenuators, a hybrid combiner and a
True-RMS responding meter (and some other bits and pieces).

Where I live you could buy several acres for that amount and put up
some decent antennas! :-)

73, Bill


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

David Ferrington, M0XDF
 

When I sent this, I wasn't aware of the car bomb (possibly bombs) found in
London today :-(

On 29/6/07 13:13, "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <M0XDF@Alphadene.co.uk> sent:

We don't have car bombs either (at the moment) - in fact I've never heard a
car bomb - seen some of the damage, but that was a long time ago.
Latest issues were suicide bombers and that was a couple of years ago now.
--
Don't say you don't have enough time. You have exactly the same number of
hours per day that were given to Helen Keller, Pasteur, Michaelangelo,
Mother Teresa, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein.
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr., writer


Re: Swapping Standard 2.7 kHz 5-pole Filter

Julian <julian@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@...> wrote:

I have 55+ acres for sale, mostly wooded in hardwoods including a
couple of spring-fed brooks, lots of deer and wild turkeys. It's
yours for $100,000 (50k pounds).
I'd buy it in a heartbeat if I thought there was any chance of using
it! In desperation, due to the high QRM levels experienced here and
RFI (even 5W of CW turns on two lots of security lights) I have been
thinking about buying a plot of "recreational" land. But 50,000 GBP
would buy about 5 acres of agricultural or forestry land here, and
planning restrictions would prevent erecting any kind of permanent
structure (including antennas) or even parking a caravan there.

This is the second case of QTH envy in one day. The first was when
CT3NT wrote to me enclosing this link:
http://www.qsl.net/ct1boh/ct3nt.htm . To have a QTH with those
antennas, that view, and that weather, would be just a complete
fantasy for anyone stuck in cold, damp, overcrowded, overpriced G land.

Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com


Variable Passband Roofing Filters

Tom <n2cu@...>
 

I haven't seen any information about them and wonder how the specs will
compare to the fixed models. Any info would be welcome.

73,
Tom N2CU <><


Re: Variable Passband Roofing Filters

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <n2cu@...> wrote:

I haven't seen any information about them and wonder how the specs will
compare to the fixed models. Any info would be welcome.
Tom I believe these are on the "back burner" until Elecraft gets the
K3 and its main options into production. Although the variable filter
in the K2 works well, I would take a cautious stance toward their use
as roofing filters in the K3. I would definitely want to IMD/BDR
results to be sure the additional components in the variable design
are not introducing unwanted IM products compared to fixed bandwidth
filters.

I like the KISS rule (keep it simple stupid) and Missouri's motto
(show me).

73, Bill


Re: Variable Passband Roofing Filters

Tom <n2cu@...>
 

I'm with you Bill 100%. Just curious what they have in store for
them. BTW, I'm envious of all you guys that got your orders in for
the K3 already. I intended on buying a new rig at Dayton but
something else came up. Maybe for Christmas?

We used K2QO's trusty K2 on Field Day and it was a joy to operate. I
expect nothing less and plenty more with the K3.

73,
Tom N2CU <><

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@...> wrote:

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <n2cu@> wrote:

I haven't seen any information about them and wonder how the
specs will
compare to the fixed models. Any info would be welcome.
Tom I believe these are on the "back burner" until Elecraft gets the
K3 and its main options into production. Although the variable
filter
in the K2 works well, I would take a cautious stance toward their
use
as roofing filters in the K3. I would definitely want to IMD/BDR
results to be sure the additional components in the variable design
are not introducing unwanted IM products compared to fixed bandwidth
filters.

I like the KISS rule (keep it simple stupid) and Missouri's motto
(show me).

73, Bill


Re: Variable Passband Roofing Filters

Jon Pellant <w1jp@...>
 

LOL! I thought that the "vairable PBFs were the combination of XFIL and
DSP!

I didn't realize that they were variable XFILs. I'll have to wait and
see the specs on this. Any idea when they will be published?

I ordered a K3 on the heels of field day. I have been wanting to get
a 'real' HF radio for a while as I currently only use a Yaseu FT-857D.
I had been looking at the TenTec Orion, FT-2000, and ICOM 756ProIII.
Durring field day, I got to use the ProIII, FT-2000, and K2. I was very
impressed with the K2's bang for the buck and blindly ordered a K3 on
faith.

Now the only question is, will I get it before JOTA (10/19)?

Jon,
w1jp


Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

Rick <mrfarm@...>
 

Assuming you like the ergonomics of a given rig, the one parameter that I look at the most is the close-in IMD3 (Third Order Intermodulation Distortion).

Currently the Ten Tec Orion series is about the best overall, but this is only for the ham band only receiver. Some don't like the ergonomics of the rig but others prefer it, so part of the selection process has to be based on what you like (assuming you try it out first and as far as I know only Ten Tec has a month trial period with return privileges if you are not satisfied for any reason). IMD3 for 20/5/2 kHz spacing is 92/96/95 and the TOI (Third Order Intercept) using the ARRL method of calculation is +20/+20/+21

The FT-2000 looks physically impressive but the IMD3 and TOI seem shockingly low for a rig in this price class. Curiously, the ARRL Review does not comment on how poor it is considering the IMD3 of 95/85/64 and TOI of +16/+11/-22

The ICOM Pro Series can no longer compete with some of the newer transceivers in the $2000 - $4000 price class in terms of IMD3 with 20 and 5 kHz numbers like 103/77. I would expect the 2 kHz IMD3 to be low, perhaps in line with the FT-2000? The TOI for 5 kHz is -18 dB. The Pro Series may be preferred by some for the ergonomics and of course nothing can thus far touch the spectrum display for one built-in to the rig.

Just for the record, I have a Pro 2 and find it to be quite good for casual use although a bit large for portable use and heavy on the receive power consumption. I also have a Ten Tec Argonaut V with some of the poorest IMD3 and TOI numbers of any modern rig, but it is fun to use for casual QRP and near QRP power levels, but it has some very amateurish design issues.

The Ten Tec Omni VII is the one rig that seems to have pretty good numbers for an under $3000 general coverage receiver at 91/84/82 and TOI of +11/+6.5/+6.5 although the K3 will be better in that category.

My rig preferences are somewhat different than the average ham as I prefer a rig with nominal 12 vdc power and keeping receive draw reasonable, portability and lightweight for emergency use, ease of interfacing for digital modes, solid performance, and excellent spectrum display. The K3 is not going to be able to compete with that last item but it sure looks good for the others. Just sending in an ICOM 756 Pro 2 to the repair shop costs around $50 ... just for the shipping! If you can repair most everything yourself (swapping out boards and replacing mechanical parts), the value is increased even more for those of us who do a fair amount of servicing.

73,

Rick, KV9U

Jon Pellant wrote:

I ordered a K3 on the heels of field day. I have been wanting to get a 'real' HF radio for a while as I currently only use a Yaseu FT-857D. I had been looking at the TenTec Orion, FT-2000, and ICOM 756ProIII. Durring field day, I got to use the ProIII, FT-2000, and K2. I was very impressed with the K2's bang for the buck and blindly ordered a K3 on faith.



Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Variable Passband Roofing Filters

David Ferrington, M0XDF
 

I hope so, I'm counting on getting mine
And by JOTA, assume you mean Jamboree On The Air in October (20th-21st)


On 2/7/07 14:43, "Jon Pellant" <w1jp@arrl.net> sent:

LOL! I thought that the "vairable PBFs were the combination of XFIL and
DSP!

I didn't realize that they were variable XFILs. I'll have to wait and
see the specs on this. Any idea when they will be published?

I ordered a K3 on the heels of field day. I have been wanting to get
a 'real' HF radio for a while as I currently only use a Yaseu FT-857D.
I had been looking at the TenTec Orion, FT-2000, and ICOM 756ProIII.
Durring field day, I got to use the ProIII, FT-2000, and K2. I was very
impressed with the K2's bang for the buck and blindly ordered a K3 on
faith.

Now the only question is, will I get it before JOTA (10/19)?

Jon,
w1jp
--
If all our misfortunes were laid in one common heap whence everyone must
take an equal portion, most people would be contented to take their own and
depart.
-Socrates (469?-399 B.C.)


Re: Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

Jon Pellant <w1jp@...>
 

Thanks for your feedback. I trust my gut instincts sometimes and my gut
made me blindly order a K3. I trust I won't be dissappointed.

Jon
w1jp

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, Rick <mrfarm@...> wrote:

Assuming you like the ergonomics of a given rig, the one parameter
that
I look at the most is the close-in IMD3 (Third Order Intermodulation
Distortion).

Currently <snip/>


Re: Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, Rick <mrfarm@...> wrote:

My rig preferences <SNIP> and excellent spectrum
display. The K3 is not going to be able to compete with that last item
Oh yes it will. With its wideband buffered 8.125 MHz IF output, a $15
Softrock kit, free Rocky software, a 1 GHz Pentium PC and a decent
sound card, the display will run circles around the Pro2/3 band scope.

http://www.dxatlas.com/rocky/

73, Bill


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

David Ferrington, M0XDF
 

Not to mention that Wayne said there will probably be a band scope etc at a
later date.


On 3/7/07 15:39, "bill_w4zv" <w0zv@yahoo.com> sent:

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, Rick <mrfarm@...> wrote:

My rig preferences <SNIP> and excellent spectrum
display. The K3 is not going to be able to compete with that last item
Oh yes it will. With its wideband buffered 8.125 MHz IF output, a $15
Softrock kit, free Rocky software, a 1 GHz Pentium PC and a decent
sound card, the display will run circles around the Pro2/3 band scope.

http://www.dxatlas.com/rocky/

73, Bill
--
It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be
reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.
-Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

Rick <mrfarm@...>
 

Bill,

You may have missed the point I was making with the ICOM 756 Pro Series having a built-in spectrum scope ...

"The Pro Series may be preferred by some for the ergonomics and of course nothing can thus far touch the spectrum display for one built-in to the rig."

Not even Ten Tec's much more expensive rig has a spectrum scope that can perform at the level of the Pro Series. The K2 of course does not even have such a feature at all.

There is nothing wrong with add-on devices or modifications, but that is not something many hams will be doing. We are now seeing some manufacturers attempting to compete although the price point is fairly high at $1000 or so for a factory add-on, plus the monitor.

But even with outboard scopes, I wonder how much better it would be. If you have used a Pro series for a while, you surely know how impressive it is. When I first bought the rig, I really was not particularly interested in that feature and figured it was just a "frill" that is nice to have but not all that necessary. But after having it for a few years, I have to say that I have completely changed my mind on this and consider it to be an important feature for a number of ham applications.

When you have compared the K3 (with the set up you mentioned) to the Pro Series Spectrum Scope, what improvements are you noticing?

73,

Rick, KV9U





bill_w4zv wrote:

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, Rick <mrfarm@...> wrote:

My rig preferences <SNIP> and excellent spectrum display. The K3 is not going to be able to compete with that last item
Oh yes it will. With its wideband buffered 8.125 MHz IF output, a $15
Softrock kit, free Rocky software, a 1 GHz Pentium PC and a decent
sound card, the display will run circles around the Pro2/3 band scope.

http://www.dxatlas.com/rocky/

73, Bill


Re: Rig ergonomics and performance comparison

bill_w4zv <w0zv@...>
 

--- In Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com, Rick <mrfarm@...> wrote:

You may have missed the point I was making with the ICOM 756 Pro Series
having a built-in spectrum scope ...

"The Pro Series may be preferred by some for the ergonomics and of
course nothing can thus far touch the spectrum display for one built-in
to the rig."
I agree for a "built-in" scope, but I believe both resolution
bandwidth and dynamic range will be significantly better using
SDR-based displays. For those who want to locate weak signals buried
in noise, the Softrock/Rocky combination will be FAR superior to any
of the built-in scopes available today. If you look at the displays
at the bottom of the Rocky page I referenced you will see what I mean.

73, Bill

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