|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Michael Kopec
Dear Jim, please read my statement again. Maybe I worded it wrong. I use a vertical and a horz antenna for diversity. That IS receiving to different paths so to speaki. For LOW NOISE I also select NONE DIVERSITY RX antennas being either the low noise Mag rx loop or the Horz roof mounted loop. Thank you for the fundamentals. de Mike K8NS dit dit
On Monday, June 21, 2021, 03:29:03 PM EDT, Jim Brown <k9yc@...> wrote: On 6/21/2021 11:50 AM, Michael Kopec via groups.io wrote: > Hello Tom, On 30 thru 160m I use vertical or inverted L antennas. For a > selectable lower noise rx antenna or 2nd diversity antenna I use a tuned > 110ft roof installed horz loop or a selectable amplified magnetic rx > loop rotatable. That is about all I can do on my small HOA 65' x 90' lot Back to fundamentals -- Diversity is NOT about low noise, it is about dealing with Selective Fading -- cancellation of the same signal that arrives at our antennas via different paths, and thus drift in and out of phase with each other. When the two arrivals are nearly equal but nearly 180 degrees out of phase, they cancel; when they are closer to in phase, they add. Because phase and time are directly related, their phase drifts in and out over time. This is the mechanism for what we call "selective fading" at lower frequencies (AM band, 160, 80, 40) and "picket fencing" with mobiles on VHF and UHF. Diversity is a method of minimizing this problem by the use of two receivers, each fed by an antenna at different points in space. When cancellation is occurring at one antenna, it will usually not be at the other of the two antennas are separated by a significant fraction of a wavelength. Noise rejection of an antenna is a good thing, but it has NOTHING to do with diversity. There is another technique called Noise Cancellation, where a noise sensing antenna is fed into circuitry that shifts the phase and tweaks the strength of the two signals so that they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and equal in amplitude, thus cancelling the noise. This only works with noise sources from a single direction, because difference in travel time and field strength will be different for other sources. Confusion about this has arisen because those who know more about writing code are ignorant of radio fundamentals, and have incorrectly used the word "diversity" to describe "noise cancellation" that they have implemented in SDRs with multiple inputs. 73, Jim K9YC
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim Brown
On 6/21/2021 11:50 AM, Michael Kopec via groups.io wrote:
Hello Tom, On 30 thru 160m I use vertical or inverted L antennas. For a selectable lower noise rx antenna or 2nd diversity antenna I use a tuned 110ft roof installed horz loop or a selectable amplified magnetic rx loop rotatable. That is about all I can do on my small HOA 65' x 90' lotBack to fundamentals -- Diversity is NOT about low noise, it is about dealing with Selective Fading -- cancellation of the same signal that arrives at our antennas via different paths, and thus drift in and out of phase with each other. When the two arrivals are nearly equal but nearly 180 degrees out of phase, they cancel; when they are closer to in phase, they add. Because phase and time are directly related, their phase drifts in and out over time. This is the mechanism for what we call "selective fading" at lower frequencies (AM band, 160, 80, 40) and "picket fencing" with mobiles on VHF and UHF. Diversity is a method of minimizing this problem by the use of two receivers, each fed by an antenna at different points in space. When cancellation is occurring at one antenna, it will usually not be at the other of the two antennas are separated by a significant fraction of a wavelength. Noise rejection of an antenna is a good thing, but it has NOTHING to do with diversity. There is another technique called Noise Cancellation, where a noise sensing antenna is fed into circuitry that shifts the phase and tweaks the strength of the two signals so that they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and equal in amplitude, thus cancelling the noise. This only works with noise sources from a single direction, because difference in travel time and field strength will be different for other sources. Confusion about this has arisen because those who know more about writing code are ignorant of radio fundamentals, and have incorrectly used the word "diversity" to describe "noise cancellation" that they have implemented in SDRs with multiple inputs. 73, Jim K9YC
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Michael Kopec
Hello Tom, On 30 thru 160m I use vertical or inverted L antennas. For a selectable lower noise rx antenna or 2nd diversity antenna I use a tuned 110ft roof installed horz loop or a selectable amplified magnetic rx loop rotatable. That is about all I can do on my small HOA 65' x 90' lot hi de Mike K8NS
On Monday, June 21, 2021, 01:00:49 PM EDT, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io <w4kx@...> wrote: Hi Mike! I did the same thing on my K3. Unfortunately, this is not yet implemented on my K4. Tom W4KX On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Michael Kopec via groups.io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim Brown
On 6/21/2021 11:28 AM, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io wrote:
Jim, you are not listening!Sorry for the misunderstanding. 73, Jim
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim, you are not listening!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I am describing using diversity (2 receivers/2 antenna) on one frequency, and the qsy BOTH to another ala Elecraft. Sorry, but you probably needed to read the entire email chain… Tom W4KX
On Jun 21, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Jim Brown <k9yc@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim Brown
On 6/21/2021 10:44 AM, John Lemay wrote:
Our use of diversity reception in the contest was pretty simple, but with useful results. A 5 ele yagi at about 10m and a 7 ele yagi at 20m on separate masts gave plenty of scope for different characteristics of reception and I can recommend it.EXACTLY! THAT'S diversity. The practice was developed nearly a century ago! 73, Jim K9YC
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim Brown
On 6/21/2021 9:33 AM, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io wrote:
When NCS asks me to go up 5 I hit A>B, and instantly am in diversity mode up 5.That's not Diversity, it's two VFOs. Diversity is two RX, one in each ear, connected to two different antennas, to counter the effect of selective fading. 73, Jim K9YC
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Jim Brown
There are several interlinked functions. First, the K3 must be told that a SubRX is installed. Second, it must be activated with a single push of the SUB button. Third, audio must be put in 2-ch mode, so that the main RX is in the left ear (not both) and the Sub in the right. This is a
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Menu setting. See the pages of tabulated menu settings. Finally, a long push of the SUB button turns on Diversity, with the blinking decimal point, as Tom has indicated. Like I said earlier in this thread, RTFM, the whole thing. The Elecraft user interface is really well thought out. Once you've used menus to tell the radio what options are installed and how you want it to work (where your mic is plugged in, whether it needs bias, and so on) and adjusted settings like VOX, it's very rare to need to access menus. But you DO have to RTFM. 73, Jim K9YC
On 6/21/2021 9:23 AM, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io wrote:
I suspect that the confusion involves a misunderstanding of how Elecraft has implemented diversity. When diversity in ON the only indication will be the blinking decimal point. BOTH receivers will be on the same frequency (indicated by VFO A), although the vFO B indication could be somewhere else.
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
John Lemay
Tom
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thank you. Having read your mail, and read, yet again, the manual, my confusion has evaporated ! That fact that VFO LINK is referred to in amongst the notes on Diversity had been the source of my misunderstanding. Our use of diversity reception in the contest was pretty simple, but with useful results. A 5 ele yagi at about 10m and a 7 ele yagi at 20m on separate masts gave plenty of scope for different characteristics of reception and I can recommend it. Thanks again for your help. John G4ZTR
-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io Sent: 21 June 2021 17:23 To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3 Diversity reception I suspect that the confusion involves a misunderstanding of how Elecraft has implemented diversity. When diversity in ON the only indication will be the blinking decimal point. BOTH receivers will be on the same frequency (indicated by VFO A), although the vFO B indication could be somewhere else. That’s actually quite convenient, as it allows you to quickly qsy to a different frequency. VFO LINK has nothing to do with it… Tom W4KX On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, John Lemay <john@carltonhouse.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Hi Mike! I did the same thing on my K3. Unfortunately, this is not yet implemented on my K4.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Tom W4KX
On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Michael Kopec via groups.io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Michael Kopec
That is exactly how my K3s functions and is used for diversity rx. Split tx also functions for tx B vfo setpoint when in diversity rx. I like diversity rx especially on the lower freq bands. I also menu selected linking the AF&AFsub controls together. I find this quite handy for comparison purposes. (Read the manual-menu descriptions for more info) de Mike K8NS
On Monday, June 21, 2021, 12:33:19 PM EDT, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io <w4kx@...> wrote: Let me give you an example. I’m checkec into a cw net on 7.112 using diversity. NCS sends two stations “up 5”, and they go. I suspect I will be sent up 5 next. I move VFO B up 5 (I can see it on the P3). When NCS asks me to go up 5 I hit A>B, and instantly am in diversity mode up 5. After traffic is passed I hit A>B, and am right back on net frequency in diversity mode. Tom W4KX > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:23 PM, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io <w4kx=mac.com@groups.io> wrote: > > I suspect that the confusion involves a misunderstanding of how Elecraft has implemented diversity. When diversity in ON the only indication will be the blinking decimal point. BOTH receivers will be on the same frequency (indicated by VFO A), although the vFO B indication could be somewhere else. > > That’s actually quite convenient, as it allows you to quickly qsy to a different frequency. > > VFO LINK has nothing to do with it… > > Tom W4KX >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, John Lemay <john@...> wrote: >> >> Thanks Arie >> >> My confusion has increased now ! >> >> Firstly I can confirm beyond doubt that CONFIG: VFO LINK "ON" is not retained on this radio when it is turned off. >> >> Secondly, the handbook for the second RX says (p51) "To turn on diversity mode: hold SUB to set the sub receiver to the same frequency as the main". That simply does not work. >> >> Lastly, if I set CONFIG: VFO LINK to on, and then engage diversity reception by holding SUB, the VFO LINK returns to off. >> >> Is the radio broken, or the firmware at fault ? >> >> Or did the previous owner set something in the menus that I've not discovered yet ? >> >> Any other helpful suggestions please ? >> >> BTW, nothing except 13v DC is connected to the radio. >> >> Thanks >> >> John G4ZTR >> >> -----Original Message----- >> Sent: 21 June 2021 10:49 >> To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3 Diversity reception >> >> Hello John, >> >> In my case: in LINK ON mode, it sticks. >> >> 73, >> >> Arie >> >> >> Op 20-6-2021 om 22:00 schreef John Lemay: >>> Hello all >>> >>> Had fun in the 6m contest this weekend using 2 different yagis and diversity >>> reception on the K3. >>> >>> But, I notice that CONFIG; VFO LINK ON is not saved after the radio is >>> switched off. Is this the expected operation ? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> John G4ZTR >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Or another. I’m working S&P in a contest, working a weak one with diversity. I see “the next station to work” up 2 on my P3. I move VFO B up 2, and as soon as I am done with the first station I hit A>B: bam, I’m on the second station using diversity.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
VFO LINK doesn’t have anything to do with this… Tom W4KX
On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Tom Doligalski <w4kx@mac.com> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Let me give you an example. I’m checkec into a cw net on 7.112 using diversity. NCS sends two stations “up 5”, and they go. I suspect I will be sent up 5 next. I move VFO B up 5 (I can see it on the P3). When NCS asks me to go up 5 I hit A>B, and instantly am in diversity mode up 5.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
After traffic is passed I hit A>B, and am right back on net frequency in diversity mode. Tom W4KX
On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:23 PM, Tom Doligalski W4KX via groups.io <w4kx=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
I suspect that the confusion involves a misunderstanding of how Elecraft has implemented diversity. When diversity in ON the only indication will be the blinking decimal point. BOTH receivers will be on the same frequency (indicated by VFO A), although the vFO B indication could be somewhere else.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That’s actually quite convenient, as it allows you to quickly qsy to a different frequency. VFO LINK has nothing to do with it… Tom W4KX
On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, John Lemay <john@carltonhouse.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
John Lemay
Thanks Arie
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
My confusion has increased now ! Firstly I can confirm beyond doubt that CONFIG: VFO LINK "ON" is not retained on this radio when it is turned off. Secondly, the handbook for the second RX says (p51) "To turn on diversity mode: hold SUB to set the sub receiver to the same frequency as the main". That simply does not work. Lastly, if I set CONFIG: VFO LINK to on, and then engage diversity reception by holding SUB, the VFO LINK returns to off. Is the radio broken, or the firmware at fault ? Or did the previous owner set something in the menus that I've not discovered yet ? Any other helpful suggestions please ? BTW, nothing except 13v DC is connected to the radio. Thanks John G4ZTR
-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Arie Kleingeld PA3A Sent: 21 June 2021 10:49 To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3 Diversity reception Hello John, In my case: in LINK ON mode, it sticks. 73, Arie Op 20-6-2021 om 22:00 schreef John Lemay: Hello all
|
|
|
|
Re: K3 Diversity reception
Hello John,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
In my case: in LINK ON mode, it sticks. 73, Arie Op 20-6-2021 om 22:00 schreef John Lemay:
Hello all
|
|
|
|
Re: Hand Tools Redux
Ian Kahn
Thanks for all the pointers and advice, everyone!
73 de, Ian, NV4C
|
|
|
|
Re: Hand Tools Redux
Wiha make VERY nice screwdrivers and multi-driver bit sets: Knipex and CHP (Hakko) piers, cutters, and tweezers are nice: https://hakkousa.com/products/chp-tools/chp-hand-tools.html For bigger tools, Klein are very good: None of these are cheap, but you grandkids will be able to use them when you are done with them.
---- 73, Mike Cizek W0VTT
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Ian Kahn
Sent: Sunday, 20 June, 2021 14:44 To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io Subject: [Elecraft-K3] Hand Tools Redux
All,
|
|
|
|
Re: Hand Tools Redux
Chuck Hill K0MV
Getting good tools is a continuing search. A couple of websites to check out are: Most of the ones I have are from estate sales (otherwise they can be expensive).
Good Luck and 73, Chuck K0MV
On 6/20/21 1:44 PM, Ian Kahn wrote:
All,
|
|
|
|
Re: Hand Tools Redux
It used to be a simple choice, based on availability; Craftsman (Sears, now defunct) or Snap-On (a little more spendy but they deliver to shops). The warranty was simple, you break it, they replace it; no questions asked (raised eyebrows however sometimes happened).
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Craftsman ain't what it used to be by FAR (the line was sold a couple times). No Snap-On in North Idaho that I've seen since moving here. So, as Jim said, do your homework. BUT I'll suggest that for Philips format, that JIS design (FROM Japan, WITH some quality) appears to be THE preferred choice by many hams groups. They fit better and do less damage when full torque is needed. Again, FROM Japan, not some other Asian country where quality, um, wanders into the variable. I just got a set (3 pieces, $30) and in the little I've used them, already know that I'll add more to that set. 73, Rick NK7I "The nice thing about standards, is that there are so many to choose from!"
On 6/20/2021 1:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
On 6/20/2021 12:44 PM, Ian Kahn wrote:I just don't do enough of this type of work to know what manufacturers make good quality tools. Can anyone on this group make recommendations?My advice is to VERY carefully study buyer ratings of anything that you think about buying, sorting those ratings both by "newest first" and again choosing the most negative.
|
|
|