Date   

Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Dave (NK7Z)
 

Hi Bob,
I am running SPLIT, and have been from day one... What a clever method of keeping harmonics out of the passband Joe Taylor et al have come up with...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 4/11/21 6:38 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
I find exactly the same thing to be true.    I strongly advise all to set the SPLIT mode to RIG.
73
Bob, K4TAX
On 4/11/2021 8:07 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
Hi Rick,

With regards to split, why FAKE IT, as opposed to RIG?

I am running RIG, (both VFOs), and see the K3 move the xmit frequency around as needed to keep my audio above 1500 Hz.  Works in F/H, and normal mode fine.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 4/10/21 9:29 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
Jim,

If you have 'Fake It' on (and you SHOULD); if the tones selected are not between 1500-2000 Hz, the radio will shift the VFO frequency so that the third harmonic of the audio will not be transmitted.  The third harmonic of that tone range will fall outside the transmit filtering.

What you are seeing is normal.  The direction of the shift depends on the tone selected.

Good luck with C92RU, it took over 4 hours of calling at legal limit tonight, to FINALLY get through.  4th time was the charm (I had 3 near misses).  (band slot #6, from North Idaho).

73,
Rick NK7I


On 4/10/2021 8:50 PM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG





Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
 

I find exactly the same thing to be true.    I strongly advise all to set the SPLIT mode to RIG.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 4/11/2021 8:07 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
Hi Rick,

With regards to split, why FAKE IT, as opposed to RIG?

I am running RIG, (both VFOs), and see the K3 move the xmit frequency around as needed to keep my audio above 1500 Hz.  Works in F/H, and normal mode fine.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 4/10/21 9:29 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
Jim,

If you have 'Fake It' on (and you SHOULD); if the tones selected are not between 1500-2000 Hz, the radio will shift the VFO frequency so that the third harmonic of the audio will not be transmitted.  The third harmonic of that tone range will fall outside the transmit filtering.

What you are seeing is normal.  The direction of the shift depends on the tone selected.

Good luck with C92RU, it took over 4 hours of calling at legal limit tonight, to FINALLY get through.  4th time was the charm (I had 3 near misses).  (band slot #6, from North Idaho).

73,
Rick NK7I


On 4/10/2021 8:50 PM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG




Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
 

That is the way the WSJT-X application works.   All normal.  Just be sure to use the F2 WSJT-X menu set to SPLIT and all will be well.   It is so designed such that any audio harmonics are above the transmit filter band and thus are attenuated by the filter.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/10/2021 10:50 PM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Wes Stewart
 

Even at the higher voltage my K3S IMD is worse that my TS-890 is at 13.8VDC. And is varies with frequency and power out.  The '890 is remarkably better.  I am surprised (and dismayed) the the composite noise is as bad as Rob reports though.  I wish I had a way to measure it, as I'd try high higher quality OCXO reference, although it's certainly not needed for frequency accuracy.

Wes  N7WS

On Saturday, April 10, 2021, 9:31:17 AM MST, Bob McGraw - K4TAX <rmcgraw@...> wrote:


Yes and it is known that most radios can be operated at higher voltages,
Vcc, and have slightly improved results.   For that reason, I have the
power supply for my K3S set to 14.8 volts, with only 0.4 volt drop at
the radio with 100 watts output, key closed, CW mode.

73

Bob, K4TAX




Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Dave (NK7Z)
 

Hi Rick,

With regards to split, why FAKE IT, as opposed to RIG?

I am running RIG, (both VFOs), and see the K3 move the xmit frequency around as needed to keep my audio above 1500 Hz. Works in F/H, and normal mode fine.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 4/10/21 9:29 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
Jim,
If you have 'Fake It' on (and you SHOULD); if the tones selected are not between 1500-2000 Hz, the radio will shift the VFO frequency so that the third harmonic of the audio will not be transmitted.  The third harmonic of that tone range will fall outside the transmit filtering.
What you are seeing is normal.  The direction of the shift depends on the tone selected.
Good luck with C92RU, it took over 4 hours of calling at legal limit tonight, to FINALLY get through.  4th time was the charm (I had 3 near misses).  (band slot #6, from North Idaho).
73,
Rick NK7I
On 4/10/2021 8:50 PM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG


Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

Not sure how to get around that as it causes VFO A to shift down one Khz in tx. with shift set to Fake It
If F/H is shifting VFO A *IN RECEIVE* you have something configured
incorrectly. I have no idea what that might be. It's been working
well for me as I have C92RU on 5 bands F/H with barefoot K3 and
a wire antenna designed for 4 bands (80/40/30/20).

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-04-11 1:28 AM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Thanks  Alex.  My question - with split set to "Fake it", is the radio actually shifting down 1 KHZ during TX.  If yes, that is a problem. Here is what Bob N6TV told me:
Bob N6TV nailed it. WSJT-X Settings Changed SPLIT to None from Fake it.  The only problem is when running F/H, you get error message with SPLIT set to NONE.  Not sure how to get around that as it causes VFO A to shift down one Khz in tx. with shift set to Fake It
Jim K7EG.


Re: K3S/P3 and K3/0-Mini set up

Colin Smithers
 

The Win4K3 suite cannot remote the K3/0 Mini. Its documentation suggests that it can, but the author told me he never completed this project.

 

I have had both Win4K3 and remoterig-K3/0 Mini solutions working and both can be made to work fine, but there are a few beartraps to each. I can’t speak for using the panadaptor.

 

73, Colin G4CWH

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io [mailto:Elecraft-K3@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Simmons via groups.io
Sent: 11 April 2021 02:32
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: [Elecraft-K3] K3S/P3 and K3/0-Mini set up

 

I've read through everything I can find and I think I've just confused myself.

I recently acquired a K3S and even more recently acquired a K3/0-Mini. My plan is to use the K3/0-Mini in my house to connect to the K3S in the shop via the local LAN/Wifi network. I also received the RemoteRig set with the K3/0-Mini. It seems like the best option is to use both boxes to accomplish this. I know that the K30-Mini has a USB connection, but it appears that requires software on the control site computer to get it to work if the RemoteRig box isn't used.

If I do use the control site RemoteRig box, can I still connect the K3/0-Mini to the computer for logging? Can I still connect the P3 to the K3S (perhaps through the RemoteRig box) so that's still available when operating the K3S locally? A panadapter would be nice at the control site. It looks like the Win4K3Suite might be able to accomplish this, but not sure if using the RemoteRig boxes. It looks like there are Wifi add-on modules for the RemoteRig boxes so that would allow a Wifi connection that would solve the lack of regular Ethernet connections.

Any suggestions on the best way to get this all working? It just seems like a lot of effort and expense to get the Remote control working.

Thanks
Ken
WR7D


Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Jim Denneny
 

Thanks  Alex.  My question - with split set to "Fake it", is the radio actually shifting down 1 KHZ during TX.  If yes, that is a problem. Here is what Bob N6TV told me:

Bob N6TV nailed it. WSJT-X Settings Changed SPLIT to None from Fake it.  The only problem is when running F/H, you get error message with SPLIT set to NONE.  Not sure how to get around that as it causes VFO A to shift down one Khz in tx. with shift set to Fake It
Jim K7EG.


Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Alex OE3JTB
 

Jim if one of the options marked red FT8 are on, this behavior is normal for Fox/hound mode 


Re: K3s and WSJT-X

George Pappayliou
 

Jim

It sounds as if all is well with your setup. When I transmit on FT8 the transmit frequency moves depending upon where I put the red cursor in the passband. It moves in 500Hz increments. On 80 my Xmit frequencies look like this:

500Hz 3571.5
1000Hz 3572
1500Hz 3572.5
2000Hz 3573
2500Hz 3573.5

Hope that helps.

Regards, George
------------------------------------
George S. Pappayliou


On Apr 10, 2021, at 11:50 PM, Jim Denneny <57JNDenneny@...> wrote:

Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG


Re: K3s and WSJT-X

Rick NK7I
 

Jim,

If you have 'Fake It' on (and you SHOULD); if the tones selected are not between 1500-2000 Hz, the radio will shift the VFO frequency so that the third harmonic of the audio will not be transmitted.  The third harmonic of that tone range will fall outside the transmit filtering.

What you are seeing is normal.  The direction of the shift depends on the tone selected.

Good luck with C92RU, it took over 4 hours of calling at legal limit tonight, to FINALLY get through.  4th time was the charm (I had 3 near misses).  (band slot #6, from North Idaho).

73,
Rick NK7I


On 4/10/2021 8:50 PM, Jim Denneny wrote:
Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG


K3s and WSJT-X

Jim Denneny
 

Strange behavior.  FT8 on 80M 3547 rx and 1000hz tx.  When I key radio the K3s shifts from 3547 to 3546 down 1Khz.  I expected TX to remain on 3547  with tx Up 1000 Hz.  First time on 80 FT8

Jim K7EG


K3S/P3 and K3/0-Mini set up

Ken WR7D
 

I've read through everything I can find and I think I've just confused myself.

I recently acquired a K3S and even more recently acquired a K3/0-Mini. My plan is to use the K3/0-Mini in my house to connect to the K3S in the shop via the local LAN/Wifi network. I also received the RemoteRig set with the K3/0-Mini. It seems like the best option is to use both boxes to accomplish this. I know that the K30-Mini has a USB connection, but it appears that requires software on the control site computer to get it to work if the RemoteRig box isn't used.

If I do use the control site RemoteRig box, can I still connect the K3/0-Mini to the computer for logging? Can I still connect the P3 to the K3S (perhaps through the RemoteRig box) so that's still available when operating the K3S locally? A panadapter would be nice at the control site. It looks like the Win4K3Suite might be able to accomplish this, but not sure if using the RemoteRig boxes. It looks like there are Wifi add-on modules for the RemoteRig boxes so that would allow a Wifi connection that would solve the lack of regular Ethernet connections.

Any suggestions on the best way to get this all working? It just seems like a lot of effort and expense to get the Remote control working.

Thanks
Ken
WR7D


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
 

While that shows the keyed waveform, it does not show the sideband noise either side of the frequency, nor the transmitter ALC overshoot.  Both of which contribute to noise and artifacts either side of the transmitter carrier frequency.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/10/2021 3:17 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
True enough.  I did the W8JI clix mod on my FT1000MP MkV ~20 years ago and it made a big improvement.  And Yeasu just improved the keying waveform on the FTDX101 with a new software release two days ago. Here's a pic of 60 wpm dits with the CW SHAPE set at 8msec.  Still has some sharp corners...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypzz0ibju7rb9vm/FTDX101%208ms%2060wpm%20202104A.jpg?dl=0


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

 

Hi Lou,

The K2 uses RC exponential keying envelope shaping, typical of earlier analog superhets.

The K3/K3S and all of our current transceivers use sigmoidal shaping in DSP, with coefficients hand-tuned for minimum keying bandwidth.

Equally important, we never apply ALC during rise/fall. That can cause severe distortion of the waveform.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Apr 10, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io <louandzip=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

True, it's easier and more relevant to see it the freq domain, but they are factually equivalent via the Fourier transform. Being aware and looking in the time domain is better than not looking at all. You can see the ARRL tests for the FTDX101 freq domain measurements and know that it will be better after this update. BTW, here is a K2 dit and a MkV dit. I'm going to guess the FTDX101 is significantly better than these in the freq domain.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cv10mb7xmg857j/K2.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7kn7kawdy1hafa/MkV%20%20200W%2030WPM.jpg?dl=0

Lou W7HV


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Lou W7HV
 

True, it's easier and more relevant to see it the freq domain, but they are factually equivalent via the Fourier transform.  Being aware and looking in the time domain is better than not looking at all. You can see the ARRL tests for the FTDX101 freq domain measurements and know that it will be better after this update. BTW, here is a K2 dit and a MkV dit.  I'm going to guess the FTDX101 is significantly better than these in the freq domain.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cv10mb7xmg857j/K2.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7kn7kawdy1hafa/MkV%20%20200W%2030WPM.jpg?dl=0

Lou W7HV


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Dave (NK7Z)
 

Perhaps it is Yaesu's way of cleaning up their bandwidth mess, if you can't control the rig, you are not transmitting, and hence your bandwidth is reduced...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 4/10/21 2:05 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
Unfortunately, Yaesu's firmware update screwed up their CAT protocol
(they no longer respond to the "Get Mode" poll) which has broken many
logging, contest and digital software packages.
Yaesu, of all the manufacturers, is simply incompetent.
73,
   ... Joe, W4TV
On 2021-04-10 4:17 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
True enough.  I did the W8JI clix mod on my FT1000MP MkV ~20 years ago and it made a big improvement.  And Yeasu just improved the keying waveform on the FTDX101 with a new software release two days ago. Here's a pic of 60 wpm dits with the CW SHAPE set at 8msec.  Still has some sharp corners...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypzz0ibju7rb9vm/FTDX101%208ms%2060wpm%20202104A.jpg?dl=0


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

Unfortunately, Yaesu's firmware update screwed up their CAT protocol
(they no longer respond to the "Get Mode" poll) which has broken many
logging, contest and digital software packages.

Yaesu, of all the manufacturers, is simply incompetent.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2021-04-10 4:17 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
True enough.  I did the W8JI clix mod on my FT1000MP MkV ~20 years ago and it made a big improvement.  And Yeasu just improved the keying waveform on the FTDX101 with a new software release two days ago. Here's a pic of 60 wpm dits with the CW SHAPE set at 8msec.  Still has some sharp corners...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypzz0ibju7rb9vm/FTDX101%208ms%2060wpm%20202104A.jpg?dl=0


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

So THAT's what's making all those super wide signals I see on the display.
Wow, you're right, at least 7 kHz wide, almost filling a ±5kHz display.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 3:36 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Dirty Transmitters Web Page

On 4/10/2021 9:43 AM, mikerodgerske5gbc via groups.io wrote:
Even operators with yaesu equipment that have class A option do not use it.
Yaesu has long been well-known to be very dirty (clicky) on CW, which is 100% amplitude modulation of a carrier by a rectangular keying signal, which also intermod, which is heard as clicks. Even worse, recent/current Yaesu rigs produce strong intermod sidebands on SSB on both sides of their intentional SSB filter bandwidth. That is, only 20 dB down for 2 kHz or more below the suppressed carrier and 2 kHz or more beyond the HF cutoff of their SSB filter. All of this can be clearly seen on a waterfall, and heard as splatter. Instead of occupying 2.8 kHz, these rigs occupy nearly 7 kHz.

73, Jim K9YC


Re: Dirty Transmitters Web Page

Jim Brown
 

On 4/10/2021 1:17 PM, Lou W7HV via groups.io wrote:
Here's a pic of 60 wpm dits with the CW SHAPE set at 8msec.  Still has some sharp corners...
Time domain is the wrong way to study CW keying. Frequency domain with narrow frequency bandwidth very narrow frequency resolution (better than 2 Hz) provides the best view, by far.

See my data, done six years ago using K3/P3 and P3/SVGA

http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

And this report re-plotting and comparing ARRL Labs data. The raw data was 1-5 years old at the time I prepared the report.

http://k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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