Date   

Re: Temperatures vs. Time

ve3ki
 

The temperature calibration procedure is in the User Manual. In the K3 user manual rev D10 it's on page 51, near the end of the section on calibration procedures.

73,
Rich VE3KI


On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 06:30 PM, Robert wrote:
Hello Rich,

Thanks for your comments. I made those measurements starting at 10:15 am today, after the radio was off since about 11 pm yesterday.

Today I switched on the K3 after several hours off-time.
I read the following temperatures immediately after turn-on:
Amb = 77.1°F (25°C), PA = 33°C and FP = 28°C. Here again the temperature gradient between PA and FP was 5°C. This indicates that there is obviously a misadjustment in the temperature calibration (I didn't yet find it in the CONFIGURATION) if there is such a thing at all. Why should PA be higher than FP, when the transmitter has not been activated at all.

Repeating the test after more than an hour off-time with Amb = 77.3°F (25°C) the PA and FP values were the same as just described above.

BTW, my K3 draws 0.91 A at 13.9 V (according to the display), which means 12.6 W power dissipation in receive mode.

I notice the same 1°C (or 1 K, to be precise) drop of PA when transmitting into a 50 Ohm power attenuator (50 W adjusted and reading 60 W on my calibrated home made power meter) only for the duration of making a reading on the display. This might be due to supply voltage dependency of analogue circuitry including the AD-converter (discrete or in the MCU).

I didn't yet find the temperature sensors and their associated circuitry in the K3 schematics.
I would like to check the temperature stress on the transistors in the final amplifier.
For this of course I would need to know the thermal resistance of the heat sink as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the radio.
73, Robert (W4BCZ, aka HB9BCZ)


Re: Temperatures vs. Time

Robert <rdiamant36@...>
 

Hello Rich,

Thanks for your comments. I made those measurements starting at 10:15 am today, after the radio was off since about 11 pm yesterday.

Today I switched on the K3 after several hours off-time.
I read the following temperatures immediately after turn-on:
Amb = 77.1°F (25°C), PA = 33°C and FP = 28°C. Here again the temperature gradient between PA and FP was 5°C. This indicates that there is obviously a misadjustment in the temperature calibration (I didn't yet find it in the CONFIGURATION) if there is such a thing at all. Why should PA be higher than FP, when the transmitter has not been activated at all.

Repeating the test after more than an hour off-time with Amb = 77.3°F (25°C) the PA and FP values were the same as just described above.

BTW, my K3 draws 0.91 A at 13.9 V (according to the display), which means 12.6 W power dissipation in receive mode.

I notice the same 1°C (or 1 K, to be precise) drop of PA when transmitting into a 50 Ohm power attenuator (50 W adjusted and reading 60 W on my calibrated home made power meter) only for the duration of making a reading on the display. This might be due to supply voltage dependency of analogue circuitry including the AD-converter (discrete or in the MCU).

I didn't yet find the temperature sensors and their associated circuitry in the K3 schematics.
I would like to check the temperature stress on the transistors in the final amplifier.
For this of course I would need to know the thermal resistance of the heat sink as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the radio.
73, Robert (W4BCZ, aka HB9BCZ)


Re: Temperatures vs. Time

ve3ki
 

Were you expecting something different?

Your ambient temperature was around 24 C. Your starting temperatures were quite a bit higher than that. Either the temperature sensors should be recalibrated, or the radio was not truly at ambient temperature when you started. The manual description of the temperature calibration process suggests waiting 15 minutes with the radio off before recalibrating, but I would suggest that that is a serious underestimate of the time required. In my experience, it can take a few hours for the temperature to get all the way back to ambient. In fact, if I were doing the temperature calibration and wanted it to be accurate to within the precision of the display (1 C degree), I would leave the radio off overnight and do the calibration immediately after turning the radio on in the morning.

With the radio in receive, it is still consuming energy. According to the display, mine uses about 1.15 A at 13.7 V, which amounts to nearly 16 watts of energy to be dissipated. It's not being transmitted, and it's not coming out appreciably as audio, so virtually all of that 16 watts is being turned into heat. The majority of the dissipation in receive is taking place in or near the front panel (microprocessor and DSP), which is why the FP temperature rises faster than the PA temperature.

For comparison, when I turned my rig on, the FP temp read 17 C and the PA temp read 19 C. The difference between the two is calibration error (it's been 12 years since I did the calibration). The actual values seem reasonable; we keep our thermostat at 20 C, the shack is in the basement, and although the shack is next to the furnace room, which keeps it warm in cold weather, the furnace was not running at the time. It's unseasonably warm here, plus 2 C outside,. 18 C is not an unreasonable estimate for the ambient temperature in my shack today. After 15 minutes in receive, the FP temp had risen to 24C and the PA temp had risen to 20C. After another 15 minutes the FP was at 27C and the PA at 22 C. These temperature increases over 30 minutes are not all that different from yours.

Transmitting of course uses a lot more energy, not only as transmitted RF, but also as dissipated heat. Based on the displayed voltage and current, when I transmit a steady carrier at 49 watts, the radio consumes about 150 watts, of which about 50 watts appears at RF and 100 watts is dissipated as heat. (Incidentally, I don't set the transmitted power to exactly 50 watts - that's the power setting that results in an automatic TX gain recalibration, which should be done into a 50 ohm load, not into an antenna.) Transmitting at 100 watts, the power consumption is close to 200 watts, i.e. 100 watts RF and 100 watts of heat dissipation (the finals are more efficient at full power). At either power level, that 100 watts of extra heat is mostly dissipated in the PA, so naturally the PA temp rises quite quickly (the FP temp also rises somewhat, as everything in the radio gets hotter). The fans are set to come on at various speeds as temperature set points are reached; I'm not going to try to quote exact threshold values here, you can find them by experimentation.

One oddity in my radio is that the PA temperature sensor reads higher in receive than in transmit, i.e. when I first start to transmit and before the temperature starts to rise, the indicated temperature drops by a degree or two, perhaps due to the drop in voltage when the PA draws more current from the power supply. Anyway, that means that there can be a period during operating when the fans come on during receive and turn off again during transmit, at least until I have transmitted enough so that the fans stay on full-time. If you let the transmitter stay on for longer, the fans speed up as the temperature rises, and they can get quite loud. I treat that as an audible warning signal.

73,
Rich VE3KI


On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Robert wrote:
Purchased a used K3 (excellent condition), studied the "Owner's Manual" (Revision D10),
installed "K3 Utilities" and updated the firrmware to 05.67 (the latest).
Bellow the Temperatur vs. Time I logged with no transmit intervals and CONFIG: KPA3 = nor(mal):

Time T(amb) T(PA) T(FP) FAN
0 (start) 74.3°F 32°C 27°C no
15 min 74.4°F 33°C 31°C no
30 min 74.6°F 35°C 35°C no
45 min 74.8°F 36°C 36°C no
60 min 75.2°F 35°C 37°C no
75 min 75.2°F 36°C 38°C no
90 min 75.5°F 36°C 38°C no

After this, transmitting a carrier for about 10 seconds with 50 Watts output, the FANs start to run for a short while.
Any comments are appreciated.
73, Robert (W4BCZ)


Sundays 80 meter net

Paul Van Dyke
 

Many apologies for the missing Net Control. about 15 mins before it was to start, I kicked 80 meter on and had a mindblowing SWR.. went out and had a branch come down on it. I tried to make the 40 work on 80 (knew it would not do it well.) I contacted ?? and I told him that I was unable to do the net.  I cut the branch the next morning and got the antenna up to normal height and swr.
Very sorry ... it was not planned

See you next Sunday or on the air

Paul  KB9AVO


Re: Temperatures vs. Time

Robert <rdiamant36@...>
 

Sorry, I meant to type "below" and "firmware".
Robert


Temperatures vs. Time

Robert <rdiamant36@...>
 

Purchased a used K3 (excellent condition), studied the "Owner's Manual" (Revision D10),
installed "K3 Utilities" and updated the firrmware to 05.67 (the latest).
Bellow the Temperatur vs. Time I logged with no transmit intervals and CONFIG: KPA3 = nor(mal):

Time T(amb) T(PA) T(FP) FAN
0 (start) 74.3°F 32°C 27°C no
15 min 74.4°F 33°C 31°C no
30 min 74.6°F 35°C 35°C no
45 min 74.8°F 36°C 36°C no
60 min 75.2°F 35°C 37°C no
75 min 75.2°F 36°C 38°C no
90 min 75.5°F 36°C 38°C no

After this, transmitting a carrier for about 10 seconds with 50 Watts output, the FANs start to run for a short while.
Any comments are appreciated.
73, Robert (W4BCZ)


Re: Does work the contact form?

Geert Jan de Groot
 

The figures are better than -10dB, but it's not a stellar product. Especially the 2m version isn't entirely bad (for 70cm, the 28 MHz IF is just too near; IF should be >>10% of the output frequency)

Having said that, they interface well with the KXV3.

And the Elecraft transverters, especially the 70cm / 2m one also have serious design issues. There is a paper in one of the VHF/UHF conferences explaining the grounding issues.

In my case, I found the frequency drift of the 70cm model problematic, so I replaced the LO with a GPS locked LO, see https://forum.amsat-dl.org/index.php?thread/2832-432-28-mhz-transverter-from-transverters-store-com/

I suspect the transverters became end-of-life because of design issues. K3 modules "only" became end of life because of the introduction of the K4.

I guess the choices are between a product that won't be re-introduced (Elecraft), a product that needs work (transverters-store) and completely rolling your own. In my case, I can make the transverters-store solution work for me.


Re: Any news on the K3 2 meter transverter?

Mel Marcus
 

William

I might be interested in the  2m transverter once you have established a price

Mel Marcus
melm@...


From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> on behalf of William Sirvatka via groups.io <billys95404@...>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 10:08 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Any news on the K3 2 meter transverter?
 
I have both a 2 m and 440 transverter from Elecraft that I don't need and haven't used.  Does anyone know a rough price for these?


Re: Any news on the K3 2 meter transverter?

William Sirvatka
 

I have both a 2 m and 440 transverter from Elecraft that I don't need and haven't used.  Does anyone know a rough price for these?


Re: KX3 and utility

Kent AA6P
 

Jim,

Thanks for the help.

It would be interesting to know if the FTDI chip had revisions along the way. That would have added a variable. The release notes for the FTDI driver show many revisions so that is another variable.

Windows driver support would likely be another. Lastly, we have the USB implementation on a given PC including hardware and drivers for both USB 2.0 and USB 3.0.

Here is an Elecraft thread with an interesting comment that I quoted below.

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Fake-FTDI-chips-td7587050.html

"Recently I had to put an adapter labeled as an FTDI product in service. Win 7 did not recognize it even with the proper Win 7 driver. I contacted FTDI Tech Support and found out that the device was in fact a genuine FTDI product but a batch had gone out with a firmware defect that they later corrected in the driver. All it required was to check the appropriate box on the driver properties panel in Win 7. Works like a charm now."

It's not clear if the firmware defect was in the FTDI chip or elsewhere on the adapter. I found a block diagram of the FTDI chip and there is an internal EEPROM. In looking at one of the datasheets, the FTDI chips can work with either internal or external EEPROM.

Quite a few amateurs have had difficulty with the KXUSB interface so I was just trying to list some of the possibilities.

73, Kent
AA6P


Re: Does work the contact form?

n3bud
 

Curuous as to what you will be asking for it and options in it?

Thanks,
Mike, N3BUD




Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device


-------- Original message --------
From: "Charlie T, k3ICH" <pincon@...>
Date: 2/22/21 7:35 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?

I will shortly have a K3S for sale that already has the 144 MHz internal transverter installed.

 

73, Charlie, k3ICH

 

 

 

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Kopec via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 3:26 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?

 

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.

On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:

 

 

Anybody know the cost of the 144 module?

Thanks,
Mike NJ2OM

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote:
>
> I have been waiting several weeks for a response also.
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote:
>> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: Does work the contact form?

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

I will shortly have a K3S for sale that already has the 144 MHz internal transverter installed.

 

73, Charlie, k3ICH

 

 

 

 

From: Elecraft-K3@groups.io <Elecraft-K3@groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Kopec via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 3:26 PM
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?

 

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.

On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:

 

 

Anybody know the cost of the 144 module?

Thanks,
Mike NJ2OM

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote:
>
> I have been waiting several weeks for a response also.
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote:
>> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





KX3 and utility

k7sss@...
 

Kent,
The Elecraft KXUSB sold or furnished with KX2, KX3, and XG3 is a FTDI chip. There is a link for a driver on the KX3 firmware page also on the KX2 and XG3 firmware pages. My KXUSB cables are unmarked. Early on 2007/8 Elecraft used a PROLIFIC Chip that was touchy on K3 cable. Many bad copies.
73
Jim H
K7SSS

In a message dated 2/22/2021 11:00:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, kawill70@... writes:
 

Does anyone know if Elecraft has delivered different KXUSB cables starting in 2012 that require different drivers?

A friend of mine has an unmarked KXUSB cable delivered by Elecraft in 2012. A Windows 7 system has not been able to find or install a working driver.

Thanks, Kent
AA6P


Re: Does work the contact form?

Bob Hammond G4DBW
 

The answer to whether the contact form works or not  is  a " NO " from me.

Well, not yet anyway. 


73

Bob G4DBW


Re: Does work the contact form?

Bill Maddock
 

Obviously that’s why they recommend only using about 2 watts output (10 watt unit) on the Ukrainian transverter. Guess that is supposed to keep the IMD down to a manageable level. 




On Monday, February 22, 2021, 3:02 PM, Jim Brown <k9yc@...> wrote:

There is often a contrary relationship between "cheap" and "good."

There's a reason why quality stuff like Elecraft and Down East Microwave
costs more.

73, Jim K9YC

On 2/22/2021 12:37 PM, ANDY NEHAN via groups.io wrote:
> Beware, we have tested the standard 2m and 70cm transverters and the
> mixer products are DIRE. From memory they are only down 10dB on the main
> signal even at 100mW output. There is now a so called high dynamic range
> model which uses a ring mixer and we have yet to test those so I cannot
> comment on their performance.
>
>
> Andy G4HUE
>
>
>
>
>    ------ Original Message ------
>    From: "Bill Maddock via groups.io" <n4zi96=yahoo.com@groups.io>
>    To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
>    Sent: Monday, 22 Feb, 2021 At 20:29
>    Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?
>
>    You can buy the Ukrainian 2 meter transverter for 80 dollars on
>    eBay. It should just tie right in to transverter inputs on K3. Just
>    my thoughts







Re: Does work the contact form?

Jim Brown
 

There is often a contrary relationship between "cheap" and "good."

There's a reason why quality stuff like Elecraft and Down East Microwave costs more.

73, Jim K9YC

On 2/22/2021 12:37 PM, ANDY NEHAN via groups.io wrote:
Beware, we have tested the standard 2m and 70cm transverters and the mixer products are DIRE. From memory they are only down 10dB on the main signal even at 100mW output. There is now a so called high dynamic range model which uses a ring mixer and we have yet to test those so I cannot comment on their performance.
Andy G4HUE
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Maddock via groups.io" <n4zi96=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Sent: Monday, 22 Feb, 2021 At 20:29
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?
You can buy the Ukrainian 2 meter transverter for 80 dollars on
eBay. It should just tie right in to transverter inputs on K3. Just
my thoughts


Re: Does work the contact form?

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
 

When most others are selling transverters for $450 and up, what could one expect for an $80 device.     About $80 worth of performance.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 2/22/2021 2:37 PM, ANDY NEHAN via groups.io wrote:
Beware, we have tested the standard 2m and 70cm transverters and the mixer products are DIRE. From memory they are only down 10dB on the main signal even at 100mW output. There is now a so called high dynamic range model which uses a ring mixer and we have yet to test those so I cannot comment on their performance.


Andy G4HUE


------ Original Message ------ From: "Bill Maddock via groups.io" <n4zi96@...> To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io Sent: Monday, 22 Feb, 2021 At 20:29 Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form? You can buy the Ukrainian 2 meter transverter for 80 dollars on eBay. It should just tie right in to transverter inputs on K3. Just my thoughts
De Bill WW5M

On Monday, February 22, 2021, 2:26 PM, Michael Kopec via groups.io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.
On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:
Anybody know the cost of the 144 module? Thanks, Mike NJ2OM > On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote: > > I have been waiting several weeks for a response also. > > Rich > > K3RWN > >> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote: >> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help? >> >> 73, >> >> Martin, OK1RR >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >


Re: Does work the contact form?

ANDY NEHAN
 

Beware, we have tested the standard 2m and 70cm transverters and the mixer products are DIRE. From memory they are only down 10dB on the main signal even at 100mW output. There is now a so called high dynamic range model which uses a ring mixer and we have yet to test those so I cannot comment on their performance.


Andy G4HUE




------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Maddock via groups.io" <n4zi96@...>
To: Elecraft-K3@groups.io
Sent: Monday, 22 Feb, 2021 At 20:29
Subject: Re: [Elecraft-K3] Does work the contact form?

You can buy the Ukrainian 2 meter transverter for 80 dollars on eBay. It should just tie right in to transverter inputs on K3. Just my thoughts

De Bill WW5M




On Monday, February 22, 2021, 2:26 PM, Michael Kopec via groups.io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.
On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:


Anybody know the cost of the 144 module?

Thanks,
Mike NJ2OM

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote:
>
> I have been waiting several weeks for a response also.
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote:
>> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Does work the contact form?

Bill Maddock
 

You can buy the Ukrainian 2 meter transverter for 80 dollars on eBay. It should just tie right in to transverter inputs on K3. Just my thoughts 

De Bill WW5M 




On Monday, February 22, 2021, 2:26 PM, Michael Kopec via groups.io <michaelkopec1@...> wrote:

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.
On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:


Anybody know the cost of the 144 module?

Thanks,
Mike NJ2OM

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote:
>
> I have been waiting several weeks for a response also.
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote:
>> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Does work the contact form?

Michael Kopec
 

I beleive the 2M module was about $390 and another $30 if you do not have the internal ATU. I may be off a few bucks.

On Monday, February 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM EST, Mike Kopacki <mikekopacki@...> wrote:


Anybody know the cost of the 144 module?

Thanks,
Mike NJ2OM

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, rich <rwnewbould@...> wrote:
>
> I have been waiting several weeks for a response also.
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>> On 2/22/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Kratoska, OK1RR wrote:
>> I want to ask if the tech support contact form on the Elecraft site does work. I tried to order the "Rubber Switch Array", part # E100200 to solve my problems with intermittent action of the front panel buttons but after longer time (~ a week) still no reply. Is there any better way to get help?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





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