Date   

Re: Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Tom Fitzgerald <kd0bcf@...>
 

No Dale, that makes no sense actually. You assume (really not sure what you assume) that the competition exists in a vacuum, immune from factors that you suggest force Elecraft (or whoever) to continually raise their prices. Ridiculous really but whatever. 

kd0bcf

        "We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." -Stephen Hawking.

"Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead." -Emily clone circa 2242  
                         
                  
                       
                 


Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3s S Meter Accuracy

ab2tc
 

Hi,


It's in the calibration menu/Calibrate RF Gain/Compute RF gain.... It's been a long time since I have been doing this but it appears that you have to follow the wizard and do the 50uV (-73dBm, S9) first. When that is done, it should give you the option of doing the -33dBm (S99+40) if you have the necessary signal source. It's a pity it's not mentioned in the manual Without that calibration the S-meter goes berserk above circa S9+20. I believe that the onset of hardware  AGC is quite variable from unit to unit and is the cause of this.


Knut



---In Elecraft_K3@..., <billincolo73@...> wrote :

Knut,

I have found no reference to the S9+40 optional cal procedure in the K3s owner's manual. The K3s procedure only calls out input signal levels of 50uv and 1uv. If the optional high level procedure is called out somewhere other than the manual, could you pass along where it is located. Also, the K3s CONFIG menu only lists four SMTR xx options, and none of them refer to a high level cal. I wonder if the K3s procedure was changed from the original K3 procedure.

Thanks,


Bill  N0CU


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

I wonder if they have better specs of if this level is acceptable in
these channelized services.
Commercial (maritime) radios have better transmit IMD specs than the
typical measured values for amateur radio *which have no regulatory*
*limits*! However, even with "12 V" finals, the maritime rigs do not
have the aggressive ALC controls (that treat the final amplifier as
an unfiltered RF clipper) and generally do not have user adjustable
"speech processors" typical of the amateur products.

The typical commercial (maritime) radio will do 100W PEP but generally
has a much lower average power output than a comparable amateur rig at
the same PEP. Amateur manufacturers (and the amateur products of
"full line" manufacturers) push the finals much harder and run them
much closer to saturation than the commercial products.

Do the IMD products fall in any appreciable amount if we run our
equipment at a lower power level, such as 50 or 70 watts?
Yes. Most of the 12V rigs are running transistors/FETs rated for
150 W (or less) per pair in saturated (CW/pulse) service. The 1 dB
compression point of most solid state devices is often between 50 and
75% of the saturated output. IMD falls considerably when the drive is
reduced from saturation to below the 1 dB compression point (it will
increase again as the drive gets close to the "turn on" point of
the devices and crossover distortion becomes more significant).

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 4/11/2016 11:02 AM, mstangelo@comcast.net [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
Rob,

Have you had the opportunity to test the IMD product levels in commercial HF SSB radios used in the Maritime service, such as the ICOM M802, or the Aeronautical service (Rockwell-Collins, Rohde & Schwarz)?

I wonder if they have better specs of if this level is acceptable in these channelized services. Since the avionics sets operate form 24-28 volts the levels may be lower.

Do the IMD products fall in any appreciable amount if we run our equipment at a lower power level, such as 50 or 70 watts?

By the way, I have been reading your information for years and appreciate the effort.

Mike N2MS


----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Sherwood. rob@nc0b.com [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com>
To: 'Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com' <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:10:12 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Knut,

How true, with few exceptions. A Yaesu in class A, if NO ALC or processing is run is quite clean, the ANAN has pre-distortion that helps a lot, but otherwise it has been down hill from the Collins 32S-3. The FT-450 is 29 dB worse on 9th order than the 32S-3.

Rob, NC0B



------------------------------------
Posted by: mstangelo@comcast.net
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links




Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Richard Fjeld <rpfjeld@...>
 

I've been thinking about the signals of the two pictures Rob sent me, and I have this comment;

I started in the hobby before we had solid state rigs.  With me it is only a hobby, not an obsession. I have forgotten much,
but who can forget how we had  to manually resonate the final tank circuit each time we changed frequency.  Tubes took a beating.
I couldn't wait to get a radio with solid state finals. In solid state HF rigs, I've had Heathkit, Kenwood, and TenTec, but no other brands.

I wanted a nice radio for what may be my last sun-cycle, and I chose a K3.  I was active on CW at the time.  I'm not the nectar type,
but during the past five years, I have read gripes about things on a K3 that were so much better than what I had experienced on other radios. 

But, I am disappointed to see the picture of the K3 transmit signal.  I've been thinking about what it would take to clean up the signal in a K4
as it has been suggested.  Then, the question arises; "Will the average Joe Amateur even care?"

I think we will see a stampede to buy the IC-7300 with it's toys, at it's price, instead of those models at, or near, the top of Rob's list.
(Though at this point, I do not know where the 7300 will be found on the list, or what the transmit signal will look like.) 

Dick, n0ce


On 4/10/2016 10:30 PM, Rob Sherwood. rob@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
 

Hi Dick,

 

Odd-order transmit distortion products are within a few 10s of kHz of your transmit frequency.

We are not talking about harmonics.

I have attached two small 100K pictures, if they make it through the reflector.

The span of the spectrum analyzer is 40 kHz, + 20 kHz and – 20 kHz of the transmit frequency.

If they don’t come through, e-mail me direct, rob@....

One is of a Collins 32S-3 and the other a K3.

This is what Knut is talking about.

The comparison is typical of a solid-state PA vs. a pair of 6146A tubes with negative feedback.

Most any solid-state rig today would look about the same.

 

Rob

NC0B

 

 











Check out the automatic photo album with 2 photo(s) from this topic.
32S-3-Imd-20M-100w-c1a.jpg K3-Imd-20M-100w-c1a.jpg

.



Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3s S Meter Accuracy

William Conkling <bconk75@...>
 

Where?  I don't see any "S" meter gain reference on my K3 Utility. 

...nr4c. bill


On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Lyle Johnson kk7p4dsp@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:

 

The procedure is part of K3 Utility, and has not changed with the K3S.

73,

Lyle KK7P


 

I have found no reference to the S9+40 optional cal procedure in the K3s owner's manual. ...I wonder if the K3s procedure was changed from the original K3 procedure.



Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Charlie,

The NEW  WINNER is the FT-991.... Really far better then the FT-897/D it replaced... Once they get inside and make mods.... God only knows what they are since Yaesu ain't talking...

back in the cave...

73 Harry  K7ZOV



From: "'Charlie T, K3ICH' pincon@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

 
Hmmm, and all this time I thought it was the FT-2Kaput that held that title.
 
73, Charlie k3ICH
 
 
 
From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300
 
 
And the winner of a goofed up new radio design goes to Yeasu and the FT-991.... Blown finals, poorly designed ATU with issues... Constant HIGH SWR reading.. Factory people who don't know how to do their job and did not set the bias correctly on the PA. Firmware releases with bug.... It has been so bad the and Yaesu is clueless as to how many radios when out this way they have expended their warranty and encourage people to send the radios in... I know I am on the FT-991 group and there are a lot of eyes looking at the IC-7300... I got my FT-991 in a straight traded for a IC-7100. The owner had to delay the trade since the radio was at Yaesu being fixed.... NOW the real issue.... Customer support compared to Elecraft is a joke. Trying to get them (Yaesu tech support anywhere in the world) to tell the customer what was done and why is impossible. Firmware up dates happen with no support notes as to why and what was fixed. Asking then goes no where. Elecraft might be more expensive in many ways but at least the radio is supported... My only nit with the K3 and the KX3 is the sucky NR. Sounds horrible. The FT-991 NR, NB is far simpler and sided by side testing with the K3 blows the K3 away. Even my 756PROII NR is better and far easier to use the the K3 in many cases... I know it is on Wayne's to do list, and unlike ICOM or Yaesu or Kewoond I know someday it will be fixed. With the other guy you can plan on things not being fixed, or if they are plan on buying a whole new radio. (as in TS-590S to TS-590SG).
 
Back under my rock....
 

From: "dalej dj2001x@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Why sure.  With the off shore ham radio companies the early adopters get to pay the highest price and as time goes on the price drops.  Elecraft, early adopters pay the low price and as time goes on and component costs  taxes employee wages etc go up the radio price goes up.  Does that make sense?  It does to me. 

Having purchased a good many Icom's, Kenwoods, Yaesu radios over the past few decades it is like deja-vue all over again.  Seems I've been there before. 

Back to sleep.
Cheers

Dale, k9vuj


On 10, Apr 2016, at 19:26, Tom Fitzgerald kd0bcf@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:



Dale, I sure hope you're right about that price decrease on the IC-7300! That would be awesome and a refreshing change from the usual, "price increase notification" we all get from time to time from Elecraft and other companies...wouldn't it?

"Another point, who says Elecraft products are "overpriced"? How does one make that judgement anyway?"

Well, I say so, that's who! You're right about "one" needing to make that judgement for themselves though. I can afford any radio currently in production but I learned early on that a fool and his money are soon parted. That said, I think that most of the radios in production now (along with many other products on the market) are WAY overpriced. The way I make that judgement is very simple really. Most working class Americans haven't had a genuine pay raise in decades when you factor in the ever increasing & outpacing cost of living. When your income doesn't go up to keep up while everything else from cars to homes to food to health insurance to meds to fuel to whatever (ham radios) continues to go up and up and up toward the stratosphere and beyond to infinity...guess what? Look around you next time you're at a hamfest. The percentage of operators involved in the hobby that have unlimited disposable income to spend (and are WILLING to do so) is quite small, certainly not enough to support the entire industry, particularly with all the usual suspects pumping out these $3,000, 4,5,6,7,8,9 & $10,000 or more radios! No way no how! Sorry Charlie (Dale), "it's the economy stupid" as someone once said. ICOM probably wants to be the last company standing. They'll be just that too IMO unless these other companies follow suit and make more affordable products that still perform well.

What/who exactly is on the air these days that justifies spending $3K or more to listen to and or talk to anyway???? Is hearing Goober talking to BillyJoeBobbySue about his latest gun purchase and the 327,568 rounds of ammo he has hidden around his property for when the zombie apocalypse begins worth spending $3K on? Really? Ah, must be the various extremist nets that dot the bands? No? Do you need to spend that sort of cash to say hi to your ham friends on the weekly or nightly net and let them know what you did today? Maybe you need to spend it for that 3.5 second contest contact? To send a CW or digital transmission? Nah...I think it's mostly ego and bragging rights. Just my opinion though and you know what "they" say about opinions. Thank you ICOM.

kd0bcf

               






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Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

Hmmm, and all this time I thought it was the FT-2Kaput that held that title.

 

73, Charlie k3ICH

 

 

 

From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

 

 

And the winner of a goofed up new radio design goes to Yeasu and the FT-991.... Blown finals, poorly designed ATU with issues... Constant HIGH SWR reading.. Factory people who don't know how to do their job and did not set the bias correctly on the PA. Firmware releases with bug.... It has been so bad the and Yaesu is clueless as to how many radios when out this way they have expended their warranty and encourage people to send the radios in... I know I am on the FT-991 group and there are a lot of eyes looking at the IC-7300... I got my FT-991 in a straight traded for a IC-7100. The owner had to delay the trade since the radio was at Yaesu being fixed.... NOW the real issue.... Customer support compared to Elecraft is a joke. Trying to get them (Yaesu tech support anywhere in the world) to tell the customer what was done and why is impossible. Firmware up dates happen with no support notes as to why and what was fixed. Asking then goes no where. Elecraft might be more expensive in many ways but at least the radio is supported... My only nit with the K3 and the KX3 is the sucky NR. Sounds horrible. The FT-991 NR, NB is far simpler and sided by side testing with the K3 blows the K3 away. Even my 756PROII NR is better and far easier to use the the K3 in many cases... I know it is on Wayne's to do list, and unlike ICOM or Yaesu or Kewoond I know someday it will be fixed. With the other guy you can plan on things not being fixed, or if they are plan on buying a whole new radio. (as in TS-590S to TS-590SG).

 

Back under my rock....

 


From: "dalej dj2001x@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300


Why sure.  With the off shore ham radio companies the early adopters get to pay the highest price and as time goes on the price drops.  Elecraft, early adopters pay the low price and as time goes on and component costs  taxes employee wages etc go up the radio price goes up.  Does that make sense?  It does to me. 

Having purchased a good many Icom's, Kenwoods, Yaesu radios over the past few decades it is like deja-vue all over again.  Seems I've been there before. 

Back to sleep.
Cheers

Dale, k9vuj


On 10, Apr 2016, at 19:26, Tom Fitzgerald kd0bcf@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:



Dale, I sure hope you're right about that price decrease on the IC-7300! That would be awesome and a refreshing change from the usual, "price increase notification" we all get from time to time from Elecraft and other companies...wouldn't it?

"Another point, who says Elecraft products are "overpriced"? How does one make that judgement anyway?"

Well, I say so, that's who! You're right about "one" needing to make that judgement for themselves though. I can afford any radio currently in production but I learned early on that a fool and his money are soon parted. That said, I think that most of the radios in production now (along with many other products on the market) are WAY overpriced. The way I make that judgement is very simple really. Most working class Americans haven't had a genuine pay raise in decades when you factor in the ever increasing & outpacing cost of living. When your income doesn't go up to keep up while everything else from cars to homes to food to health insurance to meds to fuel to whatever (ham radios) continues to go up and up and up toward the stratosphere and beyond to infinity...guess what? Look around you next time you're at a hamfest. The percentage of operators involved in the hobby that have unlimited disposable income to spend (and are WILLING to do so) is quite small, certainly not enough to support the entire industry, particularly with all the usual suspects pumping out these $3,000, 4,5,6,7,8,9 & $10,000 or more radios! No way no how! Sorry Charlie (Dale), "it's the economy stupid" as someone once said. ICOM probably wants to be the last company standing. They'll be just that too IMO unless these other companies follow suit and make more affordable products that still perform well.

What/who exactly is on the air these days that justifies spending $3K or more to listen to and or talk to anyway???? Is hearing Goober talking to BillyJoeBobbySue about his latest gun purchase and the 327,568 rounds of ammo he has hidden around his property for when the zombie apocalypse begins worth spending $3K on? Really? Ah, must be the various extremist nets that dot the bands? No? Do you need to spend that sort of cash to say hi to your ham friends on the weekly or nightly net and let them know what you did today? Maybe you need to spend it for that 3.5 second contest contact? To send a CW or digital transmission? Nah...I think it's mostly ego and bragging rights. Just my opinion though and you know what "they" say about opinions. Thank you ICOM.

kd0bcf

               






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Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

And the winner of a goofed up new radio design goes to Yeasu and the FT-991.... Blown finals, poorly designed ATU with issues... Constant HIGH SWR reading.. Factory people who don't know how to do their job and did not set the bias correctly on the PA. Firmware releases with bug.... It has been so bad the and Yaesu is clueless as to how many radios when out this way they have expended their warranty and encourage people to send the radios in... I know I am on the FT-991 group and there are a lot of eyes looking at the IC-7300... I got my FT-991 in a straight traded for a IC-7100. The owner had to delay the trade since the radio was at Yaesu being fixed.... NOW the real issue.... Customer support compared to Elecraft is a joke. Trying to get them (Yaesu tech support anywhere in the world) to tell the customer what was done and why is impossible. Firmware up dates happen with no support notes as to why and what was fixed. Asking then goes no where. Elecraft might be more expensive in many ways but at least the radio is supported... My only nit with the K3 and the KX3 is the sucky NR. Sounds horrible. The FT-991 NR, NB is far simpler and sided by side testing with the K3 blows the K3 away. Even my 756PROII NR is better and far easier to use the the K3 in many cases... I know it is on Wayne's to do list, and unlike ICOM or Yaesu or Kewoond I know someday it will be fixed. With the other guy you can plan on things not being fixed, or if they are plan on buying a whole new radio. (as in TS-590S to TS-590SG).

Back under my rock....


From: "dalej dj2001x@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Why sure.  With the off shore ham radio companies the early adopters get to pay the highest price and as time goes on the price drops.  Elecraft, early adopters pay the low price and as time goes on and component costs  taxes employee wages etc go up the radio price goes up.  Does that make sense?  It does to me. 

Having purchased a good many Icom's, Kenwoods, Yaesu radios over the past few decades it is like deja-vue all over again.  Seems I've been there before. 

Back to sleep.
Cheers

Dale, k9vuj


On 10, Apr 2016, at 19:26, Tom Fitzgerald kd0bcf@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:



Dale, I sure hope you're right about that price decrease on the IC-7300! That would be awesome and a refreshing change from the usual, "price increase notification" we all get from time to time from Elecraft and other companies...wouldn't it?

"Another point, who says Elecraft products are "overpriced"? How does one make that judgement anyway?"

Well, I say so, that's who! You're right about "one" needing to make that judgement for themselves though. I can afford any radio currently in production but I learned early on that a fool and his money are soon parted. That said, I think that most of the radios in production now (along with many other products on the market) are WAY overpriced. The way I make that judgement is very simple really. Most working class Americans haven't had a genuine pay raise in decades when you factor in the ever increasing & outpacing cost of living. When your income doesn't go up to keep up while everything else from cars to homes to food to health insurance to meds to fuel to whatever (ham radios) continues to go up and up and up toward the stratosphere and beyond to infinity...guess what? Look around you next time you're at a hamfest. The percentage of operators involved in the hobby that have unlimited disposable income to spend (and are WILLING to do so) is quite small, certainly not enough to support the entire industry, particularly with all the usual suspects pumping out these $3,000, 4,5,6,7,8,9 & $10,000 or more radios! No way no how! Sorry Charlie (Dale), "it's the economy stupid" as someone once said. ICOM probably wants to be the last company standing. They'll be just that too IMO unless these other companies follow suit and make more affordable products that still perform well.

What/who exactly is on the air these days that justifies spending $3K or more to listen to and or talk to anyway???? Is hearing Goober talking to BillyJoeBobbySue about his latest gun purchase and the 327,568 rounds of ammo he has hidden around his property for when the zombie apocalypse begins worth spending $3K on? Really? Ah, must be the various extremist nets that dot the bands? No? Do you need to spend that sort of cash to say hi to your ham friends on the weekly or nightly net and let them know what you did today? Maybe you need to spend it for that 3.5 second contest contact? To send a CW or digital transmission? Nah...I think it's mostly ego and bragging rights. Just my opinion though and you know what "they" say about opinions. Thank you ICOM.

kd0bcf

               






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Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Rob Sherwood
 

Hi Mike,
See comments below.


On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:03 AM, "mstangelo@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:

 

Rob,

Have you had the opportunity to test the IMD product levels in commercial HF SSB radios used in the Maritime service, such as the ICOM M802, or the Aeronautical service (Rockwell-Collins, Rohde & Schwarz)?

Reply. No I have not, but my IC-781 that runs on 32 volts is somewhat better than my Pro III which runs on 13.8 volts.

I wonder if they have better specs of if this level is acceptable in these channelized services. Since the avionics sets operate form 24-28 volts the levels may be lower.

Do the IMD products fall in any appreciable amount if we run our equipment at a lower power level, such as 50 or 70 watts?


Reply. Depends on the radio. The K3 is cleaner at 35 watts than near full power. On the other hand, the TS-990S with its 50 volt PA is about 6 dB better than most 13.8 volt rigs.  There is almost no difference with this Kenwood at 50, 100 or 200 watts. 

73, Rob, NC0B


By the way, I have been reading your information for years and appreciate the effort.

Mike N2MS

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Sherwood. rob@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...>
To: 'Elecraft_K3@...' <Elecraft_K3@...>
Sent: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:10:12 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Knut,

How true, with few exceptions. A Yaesu in class A, if NO ALC or processing is run is quite clean, the ANAN has pre-distortion that helps a lot, but otherwise it has been down hill from the Collins 32S-3. The FT-450 is 29 dB worse on 9th order than the 32S-3.

Rob, NC0B



If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

n2msqrp
 

Rob,

Have you had the opportunity to test the IMD product levels in commercial HF SSB radios used in the Maritime service, such as the ICOM M802, or the Aeronautical service (Rockwell-Collins, Rohde & Schwarz)?

I wonder if they have better specs of if this level is acceptable in these channelized services. Since the avionics sets operate form 24-28 volts the levels may be lower.

Do the IMD products fall in any appreciable amount if we run our equipment at a lower power level, such as 50 or 70 watts?

By the way, I have been reading your information for years and appreciate the effort.

Mike N2MS

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Sherwood. rob@nc0b.com [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com>
To: 'Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com' <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:10:12 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

Knut,

How true, with few exceptions. A Yaesu in class A, if NO ALC or processing is run is quite clean, the ANAN has pre-distortion that helps a lot, but otherwise it has been down hill from the Collins 32S-3. The FT-450 is 29 dB worse on 9th order than the 32S-3.

Rob, NC0B


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

miscwrc@...
 

Mike, I meant that more as a rhetorical question.

I have no doubt the 590sg is a fabulous rig. I do, however, like the idea of a panadapter. No, I don't need it up on a 76" UHD monitor but having one is better than not having one, imho. Unfortunately, now that I have joined the ranks of fixed income living I don't have the interest in buying, yet another, radio because it would have been what I purchased had it been around when I bought the one I do have.  So I am kind of interested in the subject and, more specifically, the effect inexpensive really good radios will have. Of course the corollary is what effect it will have on the US made radios.


K6UDA Radio - Review of the Heil Pro 7

Bob B - KJ6MOS
 

This time Tyghe is back & we're reviewing the new Heil Pro7 Headset along with the yet to be released HC4 DX/Contest Mic Element. I'm also repairing my 80 meter inverted "V" & making it armstrong rotatable. Oh yeah, Ive got some viewer mail too.

How does this fit with the K3 Group? We're testing everything on my K-line. Good video of my upgraded P3 and the KPA500 in action.



Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3s S Meter Accuracy

billincolo73@...
 

That worked!

The meter reading now is dead-nuts on from S3 to S9+60. Very impressive.

Thanks.


Bill  N0CU


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300, Fred's Law

dalej <dj2001x@...>
 

Do you remember the Kenwood TS940? The PLL circuitry was completely covered in a wax block as I recall, hi. Talk about phase noise. Nice looking on the outside though. There might still be a few in use.

Dale, k9vuj

On 11, Apr 2016, at 7:39, Wes wes@triconet.org [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



A long time ago I owned an ICOM 211, two-meter multimode, as did my good friend Ellis, W7LFX (SK). Among other things, the synthesizers in these were always a problem and we spent hours tweaking them and fixing lousy solder joints.

Once I decided to suck all of the solder off the board and start over. After reassembly (not easy) it was really flakely, it "sorta worked." To make a very long story shorter, there were a lot of CMOS gates in the circuit and one of them was missing Vdd. This was because the board was lacking a trace to the Vdd pin so ICOM had fixed the design error by using a solder bridge to the adjacent pin which was tied to the supply. When I "fixed" the soldering, I "broke" the radio.

I finally acquired another radio and gave this one to Ellis so he could fix one while using the other. I always said that it was a tribute to his character that even after giving him this radio we still remained friends.

I swore that I would never own another ICOM. So far, I've kept my promise.


On 4/10/2016 11:25 PM, 'Fred Townsend' fptownsend@earthlink.net [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
Toasters? We don’t need no stinking toasters. The only thing they are good for is erasing DVDs and CDs. Seriously folks I have a long memory. As a consultant I have tracked down many design problems. When these problems originate in the far East it is always the same. When talking to the factory you have to sink up with their time schedule which means some midnight phone calls. Then after you describe the problem two or three times they try and reflect the issue back on me asking why am I trying to destroy their fine product. The fix is usually to design their component out. With most American and European components its usually, “How can we fix this problem.”

With regard to ICOM I can remember a policy of making the customer pay for their engineering blunders that goes all the way back to their first synthesized FM rig. They have left a bad taste in my mouth. If I liked the 7300 I would still wait for the 7301.


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300, Fred's Law

Wes
 

A long time ago I owned an ICOM 211, two-meter multimode, as did my good friend Ellis, W7LFX (SK). Among other things, the synthesizers in these were always a problem and we spent hours tweaking them and fixing lousy solder joints.

Once I decided to suck all of the solder off the board and start over.  After reassembly (not easy) it was really flakely, it "sorta worked."  To make a very long story shorter, there were a lot of CMOS gates in the circuit and one of them was missing Vdd.  This was because the board was lacking a trace to the Vdd pin so ICOM had fixed the design error by using a solder bridge to the adjacent pin which was tied to the supply.  When I "fixed" the soldering, I "broke" the radio.

I finally acquired another radio and gave this one to Ellis so he could fix one while using the other.  I always said that it was a tribute to his character that even after giving him this radio we still remained friends.

I swore that I would never own another ICOM.  So far, I've kept my promise.


On 4/10/2016 11:25 PM, 'Fred Townsend' fptownsend@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
 

Toasters? We don’t need no stinking toasters. The only thing they are good for is erasing DVDs and CDs. Seriously folks I have a long memory. As a consultant I have tracked down many design problems. When these problems originate in the far East it is always the same. When talking to the factory you have to sink up with their time schedule which means some midnight phone calls. Then after you describe the problem two or three times they try and reflect the issue back on me asking why am I trying to destroy their fine product. The fix is usually to design their component out. With most American and European components its usually, “How can we fix this problem.”  

With regard to ICOM I can remember a policy of making the customer pay for their engineering blunders that goes all the way back to their first synthesized FM rig. They have left a bad taste in my mouth. If I liked the 7300 I would still wait for the 7301.




Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

mikerodgerske5gbc
 

"At what point is a radio good enough"

That depends on the mode and the seriousness of the user and probably a few other things.

For SSB, more of a limiting factor for the receiver is the mediocre transmitter
not receivers and that will continue at 12v. Rob has said a lot less than 140 should be sufficient for ssb.

If you've already got a rig your happy with, use it.

If your in the market for a new one as I was 6 years ago, there is no reason to settle for 10th best.

My k3 was $2500. It was and still is pretty bare bones.

73
Mike R

Find me on "Zello", a walkie talkie or handi talkie type app. I'm listed as KE5GBC. I'm mostly on late at night.

On Apr 11, 2016, at 1:34 AM, "dalej dj2001x@comcast.net [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Oh, I see. So you're comparing apples to oranges with your price.

Sherwood's tables are sorted for the 2 Khz dynamic range. If you re-sort to say blocking then the picture changes for various rigs, the very old Icom 765 would be up in ranking then.

Have a nice day.

73
Dale, k9vuj


On 10, Apr 2016, at 21:10, "miscwrc@ct.metrocast.net [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



When I made the comment I made "K-Line" referred to a fully decked out K3s with subreceiver and loaded with the good filters, the KAT500, the KPA-500 etc. Actually that is way over $7,000 I suspect. I have the KAT500 and KPA-500 and priced out a full bore K3s w good filters at $6,500 as I recall. That is less than the direct competitor's offering,

I never said it was overpriced. What I said was, I'll add color now, from looking at Rob's most excellent rankings it appears the 6700 and K3s are statistically in a dead heat. I do not believe the 7300 is in the same league as either. However, if I were to listen to one play the violin, I wouldn't be able to tell whether they were using a Stradivarius or something from Walmart. At what point is a radio 'good enough'? On the other forum I asked that question, several times. Not to be provocative but because I couldn't tell. The answer I, essentially, got back was if you don't know, you don't deserve to own one. From what I understand, the IC-7300 comes in 3 flavors, 100w, 50w and 10w? Buy the 50w version and plug it into the KPA-500 and you have a 500w SDR for, likely, under $1,000 (out of pocket), complete with panadapter, knobs, dials, and rocker switches. That it isn't in win, place, or show on Rob's list? I am not sure that matters. How does it compare to the 590sg? I am certain Rob will let us know.

Walt





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Yahoo Groups Links



Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

dalej <dj2001x@...>
 

Why sure. With the off shore ham radio companies the early adopters get to pay the highest price and as time goes on the price drops. Elecraft, early adopters pay the low price and as time goes on and component costs taxes employee wages etc go up the radio price goes up. Does that make sense? It does to me.

Having purchased a good many Icom's, Kenwoods, Yaesu radios over the past few decades it is like deja-vue all over again. Seems I've been there before.

Back to sleep.
Cheers

Dale, k9vuj

On 10, Apr 2016, at 19:26, Tom Fitzgerald kd0bcf@yahoo.com [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Dale, I sure hope you're right about that price decrease on the IC-7300! That would be awesome and a refreshing change from the usual, "price increase notification" we all get from time to time from Elecraft and other companies...wouldn't it?

"Another point, who says Elecraft products are "overpriced"? How does one make that judgement anyway?"

Well, I say so, that's who! You're right about "one" needing to make that judgement for themselves though. I can afford any radio currently in production but I learned early on that a fool and his money are soon parted. That said, I think that most of the radios in production now (along with many other products on the market) are WAY overpriced. The way I make that judgement is very simple really. Most working class Americans haven't had a genuine pay raise in decades when you factor in the ever increasing & outpacing cost of living. When your income doesn't go up to keep up while everything else from cars to homes to food to health insurance to meds to fuel to whatever (ham radios) continues to go up and up and up toward the stratosphere and beyond to infinity...guess what? Look around you next time you're at a hamfest. The percentage of operators involved in the hobby that have unlimited disposable income to spend (and are WILLING to do so) is quite small, certainly not enough to support the entire industry, particularly with all the usual suspects pumping out these $3,000, 4,5,6,7,8,9 & $10,000 or more radios! No way no how! Sorry Charlie (Dale), "it's the economy stupid" as someone once said. ICOM probably wants to be the last company standing. They'll be just that too IMO unless these other companies follow suit and make more affordable products that still perform well.

What/who exactly is on the air these days that justifies spending $3K or more to listen to and or talk to anyway???? Is hearing Goober talking to BillyJoeBobbySue about his latest gun purchase and the 327,568 rounds of ammo he has hidden around his property for when the zombie apocalypse begins worth spending $3K on? Really? Ah, must be the various extremist nets that dot the bands? No? Do you need to spend that sort of cash to say hi to your ham friends on the weekly or nightly net and let them know what you did today? Maybe you need to spend it for that 3.5 second contest contact? To send a CW or digital transmission? Nah...I think it's mostly ego and bragging rights. Just my opinion though and you know what "they" say about opinions. Thank you ICOM.

kd0bcf


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

dalej <dj2001x@...>
 

Oh, I see. So you're comparing apples to oranges with your price.

Sherwood's tables are sorted for the 2 Khz dynamic range. If you re-sort to say blocking then the picture changes for various rigs, the very old Icom 765 would be up in ranking then.

Have a nice day.

73
Dale, k9vuj

On 10, Apr 2016, at 21:10, "miscwrc@ct.metrocast.net [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



When I made the comment I made "K-Line" referred to a fully decked out K3s with subreceiver and loaded with the good filters, the KAT500, the KPA-500 etc. Actually that is way over $7,000 I suspect. I have the KAT500 and KPA-500 and priced out a full bore K3s w good filters at $6,500 as I recall. That is less than the direct competitor's offering,

I never said it was overpriced. What I said was, I'll add color now, from looking at Rob's most excellent rankings it appears the 6700 and K3s are statistically in a dead heat. I do not believe the 7300 is in the same league as either. However, if I were to listen to one play the violin, I wouldn't be able to tell whether they were using a Stradivarius or something from Walmart. At what point is a radio 'good enough'? On the other forum I asked that question, several times. Not to be provocative but because I couldn't tell. The answer I, essentially, got back was if you don't know, you don't deserve to own one. From what I understand, the IC-7300 comes in 3 flavors, 100w, 50w and 10w? Buy the 50w version and plug it into the KPA-500 and you have a 500w SDR for, likely, under $1,000 (out of pocket), complete with panadapter, knobs, dials, and rocker switches. That it isn't in win, place, or show on Rob's list? I am not sure that matters. How does it compare to the 590sg? I am certain Rob will let us know.

Walt


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300, Fred's Law

Fred Townsend
 

Toasters? We don’t need no stinking toasters. The only thing they are good for is erasing DVDs and CDs. Seriously folks I have a long memory. As a consultant I have tracked down many design problems. When these problems originate in the far East it is always the same. When talking to the factory you have to sink up with their time schedule which means some midnight phone calls. Then after you describe the problem two or three times they try and reflect the issue back on me asking why am I trying to destroy their fine product. The fix is usually to design their component out. With most American and European components its usually, “How can we fix this problem.”  

With regard to ICOM I can remember a policy of making the customer pay for their engineering blunders that goes all the way back to their first synthesized FM rig. They have left a bad taste in my mouth. If I liked the 7300 I would still wait for the 7301.

As for Elecraft’s expensive manufacturing I will give you Fred’s Law which states the expense in time and money to fix any flaw is directly proportional to the distance between engineering and manufacturing. I think that distance is about three miles for Elecraft.

Call me a Kool-Aid drinker if you want but I like fast fixes and free software upgrades. I have no interest in even looking at a 7300.

73,

Fred, AE6QL

 

From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...]
Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 3:53 PM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

 

 

I think you will see ICOM phase out the 7200, 7600, 7700 and 7851 over the next couple of years and replace all of the radios with SDR and hybrid SDR radios. The end game will be radios that will be more then competitive with the K3 and L-line. I really don't think ICOM is concerned about Elecraft at this time... They want to go after the new "pretty" faces of Yaesu more then the others. They want to take out the FT-991, FTdx1200, FTdx300, FTdx 5000 and maybe even the FTDX9000. They also want the Flex 6xxx market. I really don't think Elecraft or even Kenwood is a threat to their markets and long term goals... That said at one time ICOM was the first choice for DXpeditions with the 756 and later the pro's, but Elecraft took that away and the IC-7000 was suppose to get it back and they blew it big time by making a toaster....

 

Can a SDR based radio beat out the specs against a K3 at this time?  I would say yes.... Can it do it in the same price range?  Maybe.  The biggest threat, IMHO, to Elecraft is Elecraft when it comes to price verses features... Elecraft is US made in one the THE most expensive part of the country, thus the overhead of CA taxes and fees will never go lower just higher. The other thing, which is a good thing, is Elecraft does not design to be low cost. They design in whatever parts they feel will do the job for many years to come and base the final cost on whatever it takes. ICOM and other are higher volume and lower over head, so you will see a lot of features in future boxes with lower pricing...

 

I have a K3 K- Line.. I have a KX3 KX-line. I still have my IC-75PROII and now a FT-991... The K3 and L-Line is my pride and joy. I can not see parting with it. I however see a rough road a head for Elecraft and I see it happening very soon because of the 7300. I really hope a K4 has been thought about and has been in the works in the back room.  I hope it will be in a form factor that is like we are seeing, not only with the 7300, but other radios that are in the radar in the EU I have seem the past couple years. They are out there. A QRP version is in the next QST magazine.. They may not be as good as Elecraft, but people won't care since they will still be beyond the radios they have now and price will be the new driving force.

 

That is my take...Some will agree and most won't. Not everyone can afford a K3S with the newer higher price.  I know I can't.  We are at a time when price will matter more then anything else, because most of the latest low end radio are better then the high end radios of even 5 yrs ago.  I am still rooting for Elecraft and always will. Wayne and Eric and the whole staff is awesome...

 

73 Harry  K7ZOV

 


From: "w2blc@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...>
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

 

 

At the price break? You mean for the rig and all the options for it? Devil's advocate here. On the K3 - everything is extra - tuner, filters, SWL coverage, etc. Not complaining, luv my K-Line and have no interest in replacing it. But, it is of interest what the Icom 7300 does - as everything is installed and a display for $1500 or less.

Will it be more than an entry level radio? Maybe, if you are not a price snob.

Bill W2BLC K-Line

 


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300 [2 Attachments]

Richard Fjeld <rpfjeld@...>
 

You are a gentleman, Rob.  I was thinking it involved harmonics. 

Your pictures came through fine.  I didn't know the problem was this bad.
I'm glad you included a K3.

Thank you,
Dick, n0ce

On 4/10/2016 10:30 PM, Rob Sherwood. rob@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
 

Hi Dick,

 

Odd-order transmit distortion products are within a few 10s of kHz of your transmit frequency.

We are not talking about harmonics.

I have attached two small 100K pictures, if they make it through the reflector.

The span of the spectrum analyzer is 40 kHz, + 20 kHz and – 20 kHz of the transmit frequency.

If they don’t come through, e-mail me direct, rob@....

One is of a Collins 32S-3 and the other a K3.

This is what Knut is talking about.

The comparison is typical of a solid-state PA vs. a pair of 6146A tubes with negative feedback.

Most any solid-state rig today would look about the same.

 

Rob

NC0B

 

 

From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:41 PM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Compare the K3 with the IC-7300

 

 

I hate to reveal my ignorance, but isn't that one of the reasons I have a low pass filter in-line to my antenna system?
I would welcome a brief explanation if the low pass filter is not effective. 

Also, forgive me for posting a reply before I have read the entire list.  I jumped the gun awhile ago.

Dick, n0ce

 

On 4/10/2016 4:43 PM, ab2tc@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:

 

Hi Rob again,

 

Yes, the higher order products are the worst problem with most solid state transmitters. In tube transmitters there is the 3rd order and very little after that. In most solid state transmitters the spectrum goes on and on and on... This requires attention by mainstream companies, including Elecraft. I'd really like to see Elecraft take the lead with respect to SSB transmitter distortion. If there is ever a K4 it ought to have a clean transmitter. I don't really care about the receiver. If a direct sampling receiver saves them money and retains or improves the performance, kudos to them.

 

AB2TC - Knut

 

 

 


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