Date   

Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3/P3 video display on AM vs SSB

farrerfolks@...
 

OK, Alan, Thanks for the input.

Here goes.  I am monitoring a friend near by, 15 miles.  I took care to have him set up the 100 W SSB station and his 1KW AM station like this.

In CW mode, send a 100 W measured carrier.  I recorded the level on the P3.  Then had him transmit normal voice levels and the peak SSB audio components reached the same level as the CW signal on the P3. 

Then I had him set up his RCA AM transmitter to monitored 1 KW carrier on the bird.  I recorded the level on the P3, ~1-2 dB of 10 dB more than the CW signal.  Same antenna on both.

I had him transmit a 1 KHz tone 100 % modulated and yes, the 1 KHz was 6 db below the carrier at 1 KW on the P3.

Now I had him talk to the 100% modulation point on the AM transmitter.

With the Peak averaging set to max, the side band AM signals were 20-25 dB down from the carrier.

If the premise is that a 100% modulated AM signal has 50% of the power in the sidebands and 25% on each side, that is 500 watts total audio and 250 watts on each side.  So the level should be only 6 dB down from the carrier.

The only difference is the complex audio components vs the signal tone.  So why is the SSB signal peaking at the 100 watt level and the AM signal 10 to 15 dB lower?

Comments appreciated....

Mel, K6KBE


Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

rich matos
 

serial number 10004

On 7/3/2015 6:52 AM, Steven Stuckey ac9gkx@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:
 

Bill yes serial number.

Steven Stuckey AC9GK

On Jul 2, 2015 10:14 PM, "William Conkling bconk75@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 
Serial number?



...nr4c. bill


On Jul 2, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:

 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

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Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

Steven Stuckey (AC9GK)
 

Bill,

Cool and thanks I am still waiting for mine.

73
Steven AC9GK

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 

ordered on 5/7, 

(actually ordered a k3 ,was told there was none available they were waiting for parts told to
check back in about a week or so and they would see  if the parts they needed  were in .
at that time i was told of The new K3S and did i want that instead.)
serial number is 10004
"Rich"
 

When did you order it? What sn did you get?

73
Steven Stuckey AC9GK

On Jul 2, 2015 2:38 PM, "Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Avast logo

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com





--
Steven Stuckey - AC9GK - Indiana


Re: Is there a new TCXO control?

willcoele@...
 

I think very small frequency drift is a function of the ADF4001.  Starting at page 6, Read the ADF4001 data sheet.  You can download it from Analog Devices web page.

Jack WA9FVP
Willco Electronics.


Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

rich matos
 

ordered on 5/7, 
(actually ordered a k3 ,was told there was none available they were waiting for parts told to
check back in about a week or so and they would see  if the parts they needed  were in .
at that time i was told of The new K3S and did i want that instead.)
serial number is 10004
"Rich"

 

When did you order it? What sn did you get?

73
Steven Stuckey AC9GK

On Jul 2, 2015 2:38 PM, "Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

Steven Stuckey (AC9GK)
 

Bill yes serial number.

Steven Stuckey AC9GK

On Jul 2, 2015 10:14 PM, "William Conkling bconk75@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 

Serial number?



...nr4c. bill


On Jul 2, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:

 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3/P3 video display on AM vs SSB

Al N1AL
 

Hi Mel,

I'm trying to understand the test conditions. Are the 100W SSB signal and the 1 kW AM signal transmitted from the same station on the same antenna? If not, then no direct comparison can be made.

I can easily believe the sidebands of the AM signal are 20 to 30 dB below the carrier. Say the audio has a 10 dB peak-to-average ratio. Right away that puts the average power of each sideband at 6 + 10 = 16 dB below the carrier, assuming 100% peak modulation.

Furthermore, if the P3 span is 20 kHz, then each display point is roughly 40 Hz wide, perhaps 1/100 of the total sideband, assuming 4 kHz audio. That's another 20 dB.

Here's something to try: Turn on peak hold on the P3 and watch the AM signal for awhile as the program content varies between music, voice announcements, ads, etc. You'll probably notice the sidebands are much flatter and higher in amplitude on the peak trace than on the real-time trace.

Alan N1AL

On 07/02/2015 12:36 PM, farrerfolks@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:


Yes, Alan, I understand all of that.

Here is the question. Why is the sideband power on AM on the same band,
75 M, less than the displayed signal on SSB.

An example. Watching the 100 watt signal on 3963 KHz SSB signal on the
P3, the envelop of the energy fills the IF KHz window and is smooth in
the display, if the audio is flat, to the top of the same RF level as
CW. With audio frequency variances allowed. While on the same settings
on a AM signal at 3870 KHz at 1KW carrier the sideband are 20 to 30 dB
lower and ragged in display.!!!!!!!!!!! All P3 settings the same......

If my math is correct, 100 w SSB and 1KW AM should have within ~3 dB the
same displayed sideband power level????? Where is my reasoning wrong???

Mel, K6KBE


Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

William Conkling <bconk75@...>
 

Serial number?



...nr4c. bill


On Jul 2, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3] <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:

 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

---
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Is there a new TCXO control?

David McClain
 

Hi,


I installed a pair of the new LO boards a few weeks ago, and today was playing around with watching the frequency stability of the K3. I didn't expect to see any changes as a result of the new LO, but it appears that something might have changed after all?


Attached pic shows a capture of a Rb reference tone at 7010 kHz, received in Rev CW mode (600 Hz nominal tone), after adjusting the Ref Freq to near zero beat against the Rb reference. As you can see, there is a slight drift in the frequency toward higher tones, but every so often there is an abrupt revision downward.


I'm running the K3 in TCXO mode - not locked to any external reference. This is the kind of behavior I used to see with the old LO boards when I had the K3 locked to the Rb reference. But that isn't the case here.


Looks like some new firmware added to monitor the TCXO??


73 de Dave, N7AIG




Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3S arrived

Steven Stuckey (AC9GK)
 

When did you order it? What sn did you get?

73
Steven Stuckey AC9GK

On Jul 2, 2015 2:38 PM, "Rich w9cin@... [Elecraft_K3]" <Elecraft_K3@...> wrote:
 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: [Elecraft_K3] RE: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

A fleeting thought flittered through my feeble mind……

 

Is there any possible chance that the posting about the 500/1500 watts at 20 feet antenna spacing was an attempt to “tweak” us all?

 

If so, it sure as heyull worked.

 

Just think about it for a minute……20 FOOT spacing, at THAT power ??? 

 

If this was in fact a genuine comment about a problematic * Field Day site, then you have my sincere apology (for a NUMBER of reasons)…Charlie k3ICH

 

 

 

*We used to run that kind of power at K3LNZ/8 for the June VHF contest, sometimes with long Yagi’s for different bands pointed at each other. BUT, we had one or more very high Q cavity resonator bandpass filters in the transmission lines so the radios would survive.

 

 

 

 

 

From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:58 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: [Elecraft_K3] RE: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

 

 

500 & 1500 watts at 20 feet !! ! Gawd, these
radios are good but they need to inject them with
some vampire blood for them to survive that!

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Walter Underwood
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 1:21 AM
To: Matt Z
Cc: elecraft@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF
(K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

Did the KX3 have the isolation preamp turned on?
It is normal for a direct conversion receiver to
leak the LO at the operating frequency. The KX3
has a special preamp that prevents that.

Also, antennas 20 feet apart might as well have
coax directly from the transmitter into the
receiver. That will cause huge coupling of TX into
RX. Running 500W and 1.5kW? You are lucky that the
receivers survived, let alone were able to work
any band when the other one was transmitting.

Don't do that again.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft
wrote:

> KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and
a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely
noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element
stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the
elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The
two elecrafts could not operate on the same band
at all. Maybe it was something with the setup.
>


Re: [Elecraft_K3] K3/P3 video display on AM vs SSB

farrerfolks@...
 

Yes, Alan, I understand all of that.

Here is the question.  Why is the sideband power on AM on the same band, 75 M, less than the displayed signal on SSB. 

An example.  Watching the 100 watt signal on 3963 KHz SSB signal on the P3, the envelop of the energy fills the IF KHz window and is smooth in the display, if the audio is flat, to the top of the same RF level as CW. With audio frequency variances allowed.  While on the same settings on a AM signal at 3870 KHz at 1KW carrier the sideband are 20 to 30 dB lower and ragged in display.!!!!!!!!!!!  All P3 settings the same...... 

If my math is correct, 100 w SSB and 1KW AM should have within ~3 dB the same displayed sideband power level?????  Where is my reasoning wrong???

Mel, K6KBE


K3S arrived

rich matos
 

well, got the new K3S today , hooking it up and listing as i type this.
have owned several K3 thru the years . so familiar with them.
first thoughts , i think the audio sounds better and the receiver seems
quieter.
also the new style knob and that area looks very nice .
what a great company ! i was treated very nicely, not just this time
but always.
"Rich"


Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

drew.vonadasmith@...
 

Matt,

You describe a situation beyond the capability of modern transceivers.

For SO2R and other fixed station multi operation, switchable band filters and/or stubs are used on each radio.  I assume you did not have these.  Even with this, same band operation is not possible without much larger antenna seperation.

Also, your antennas and power are well within the spacing that would suggest front end receiver damage is very likely.  You should to check out those radios after that exposure...

I suggest you read the W8JI web pages on this topic.  Another very good reference would be "Managing Interstation Interference" by George Cutsogeorge, W2VJN.  This is the standard reference on the topic.

If you want to run high power and simple configurations without filters and stubs, you need MUCH MUCH wider antenna seperation.  The maximum legal FD circle (1000' circle) should be sufficient.

With good W3NQN type filters and/or stubs an both radios, you should be able to do this at the small spacings noted, excluding same band operation.

73,
Drew K3PA


---In Elecraft_K3@..., <pincon@...> wrote :

500 & 1500 watts at 20 feet !! ! Gawd, these
radios are good but they need to inject them with
some vampire blood for them to survive that!

73, Charlie k3ICH



-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Walter Underwood
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 1:21 AM
To: Matt Z
Cc: elecraft@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF
(K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

Did the KX3 have the isolation preamp turned on?
It is normal for a direct conversion receiver to
leak the LO at the operating frequency. The KX3
has a special preamp that prevents that.

Also, antennas 20 feet apart might as well have
coax directly from the transmitter into the
receiver. That will cause huge coupling of TX into
RX. Running 500W and 1.5kW? You are lucky that the
receivers survived, let alone were able to work
any band when the other one was transmitting.

Don't do that again.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft
<elecraft@...> wrote:

> KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and
a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely
noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element
stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the
elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The
two elecrafts could not operate on the same band
at all. Maybe it was something with the setup.
>


Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

Charlie T, k3ICH
 

500 & 1500 watts at 20 feet !! ! Gawd, these
radios are good but they need to inject them with
some vampire blood for them to survive that!

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Walter Underwood
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 1:21 AM
To: Matt Z
Cc: elecraft@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF
(K3 vs Flex 6xxx)

Did the KX3 have the isolation preamp turned on?
It is normal for a direct conversion receiver to
leak the LO at the operating frequency. The KX3
has a special preamp that prevents that.

Also, antennas 20 feet apart might as well have
coax directly from the transmitter into the
receiver. That will cause huge coupling of TX into
RX. Running 500W and 1.5kW? You are lucky that the
receivers survived, let alone were able to work
any band when the other one was transmitting.

Don't do that again.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft
<elecraft@...> wrote:

KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and
a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely
noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element
stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the
elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The
two elecrafts could not operate on the same band
at all. Maybe it was something with the setup.


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Postage

g3repcomms@...
 

Cheers Clive,

sounds like a situation of running the numbers at the time and deciding if the extra hassle direct is worth the savings.  

Presumably a high postage charge on a small item like you incurred from US would be offset by the lower postage costs direct on an item (with its mark up) from the UK supplier.


I also wonder if the tax situation maybe slightly different  for assembled to kit assembly but unsure.


All a bit of a minefield really !

73s

Bob

G3REP


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Re: Postage

Clive Lorton <clive@...>
 

Dear Bob,


When I purchased my K3 I went straight to Elecraft.I had a very tight
budget.The K3 kit was sent UPS and I had to pay VAT to the UPS delivery
driver (luckily he took a cheque) but not on the whole purchase price.A
major saving on W&S!


Support from Elecraft during the build was second to none..


There is no duty payable, in the UK only VAT unless the Chancellor has
changed things.


Clive
G8POC

On 01/07/2015 21:43, g3repcomms@... [Elecraft_K3] wrote:

Would you have got a better deal going to W&S plc, difficult choice,
one I am going to have to make sooner or later !


Bob

G3REP


Re: Postage

Peter Dougherty
 

Personally I prefer to use the post office for all my shipping. In sending a book I publish to customers all over the world I've never, in 17 years of shipping, had a foreign shipment disappear on me.

But even the USPS has dramatically raised their international shipping rates. A flat-rate medium box sent to the UK from the U.S. costs $63 (if I print the postage online), with a 20 pound weight limit. A small box, measuring just over 5" x 8" by 1-3/8" is $25.25, and has a four pound weight limit. UPS and FedEx are much more expensive.

I'm surprised for such a physically small item that they could not securely package it in a bubble mailer and send it off 1st class mail for about half the price....with the only problem being 1st class packages sent overseas are non insurable and non trackable.


Re: [Elecraft_K3] Postage

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Be it postage for over seas or across the country, I feel it is my responsibility and not the sender to determine how I want my packages sent  to make sure I am getting the best price, safety and fast shipping time.  Over the years I have left it to the shipper and it was costly. Not because they were making a profit on shipping, but because they had a rubber stamp way of doing shipping unless redirected.

Elecraft has been very good from shipping UPS (which is always expensive) to USPS Priority for me at my request. With other companies I found the FedEx home delivery was cheaper then UPS but almost 60% for the same delivery time and requested the change. Saved me a pile of $$$.

Sending outside the country will always be expensive do to VAT and other charges. This means it is even more important that the sender is given directions to help save money. If not then expect the shipping costs to be higher then expected. I do not blame Elecraft or any other company for what they charge if I do not make recommendations.

That is my nickels worth on this. I was in the field of electronics for over 45 years and had to buy and ship products all over the world. I know for a fact that in those days shipping by  DHL, UPS and FedEx to the same place, in the same box, had price variations of up to 150% in some cases.Talk about sticker shock... I don't know what it is like to day, but I am sure it is much worst.

73 Harry  K7ZOV



From: "tnnyswy@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: "Elecraft_K3@..."
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] Postage

 
I am trying to figure out what it is you are saying.
a) Are you saying Elecraft is cheating you?
b) Are you saying Elecraft fix the Postage rates?
c) Are you saying Elecraft should ship the package as cheaply as possibly disregarding the contents inside?

WHAT is it you are trying to share with us?

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS


From: "banester@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 2:10 PM
Subject: [Elecraft_K3] Postage

 
High Acc. Crystal for XV432 
Cost $40 + postage $69 to the UK !
I love Elecraft and what they do but OUCH on the postage for a very small package !!






Re: [Elecraft_K3] Postage

Milverton M. Swire
 

I am trying to figure out what it is you are saying.
a) Are you saying Elecraft is cheating you?
b) Are you saying Elecraft fix the Postage rates?
c) Are you saying Elecraft should ship the package as cheaply as possibly disregarding the contents inside?

WHAT is it you are trying to share with us?

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS



From: "banester@... [Elecraft_K3]"
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 2:10 PM
Subject: [Elecraft_K3] Postage

 
High Acc. Crystal for XV432 
Cost $40 + postage $69 to the UK !
I love Elecraft and what they do but OUCH on the postage for a very small package !!



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