Date   

Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Rob Sherwood
 

If you are looking for 10 meters to open, 20 dB down is a lot, but I get your point. Rob

On May 7, 2014, at 5:36 AM, "Carl Moreschi" <n4py3@earthlink.net> wrote:



Non-resonate antennas might be 20 db down but that still works fine for
monitoring other bands. I was quite surprised with this.

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 5/7/2014 3:18 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:
Here is my question on the subject of 4 or 8 slices. I have 14 monoband
antennas 160 - 2 meters. With my switching matrix I can have any two
going to the two transmit ports of the Flex 6700 or one going to the one
transmit port of the 6500. How am I going to hear much on some other
slice with a totally non-resonant antenna feeding those slices, assuming
I am not listening on the same band?

Sure I could put up a G5RV, but why would I chose to do that? Yes I have
a Wellbrook 20-foot circumferential broadband loop I can put on the RX
port, but it doesn't hear like a 5-element yagi at 70 feet.

I am confused as to how to really use more than two slices. One friend
has an 8-band vertical, so he is in good shape. He can hear equally
poorly on all bands.

Rob, NC0B

Sent from my iPad

On May 6, 2014, at 11:31 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@yahoo.com
<mailto:harrylatterman@yahoo.com>> wrote:

Keith,

Keep in mind that I am just speculating on the time frame. This is a
radio that is very advance with extremely powerful insides that
requires a lot of thought and software development. What has been
unleashed is very impressive. But it is still in the early stages.
Just look at the simple K3, P3, KPA500, KAT500, KX3 and how many
things have been fixed and added the past few years. I say simple,
because you really can not compare the computing power and code in the
Flex to that of all the Elecraft products combined and get even close
to what goes on every microsecond during operation.

The Flex is one neat system, but I will stick with the K3....K-Line
family I have and the KX3 and soon the PX3. One band is enough for me.
For the price of just one 6700 I can have more then one K3/P3 and/or
KX3/PX3 and look at more then one band. Right now at my QTH I have the
K3/P3 doing all the heavy lifting and the IC-756PROII doing the light
stuff, like keep a eye on 10 or 6 meters. When I see wiggle I switch
the K3 and turn off the PRO or put it on another band. Have up to 8
bands at one time is neat, but when you step back and look at it
logically it is just plane silly. ...That is the way I look at it.
Others might not, but we all have our opinion of what works for us.

The Flex 1500 I had until recently was nice, fun and did little
compared to the K3/P3. That is why I am excited and jumped on the
first run of the PX3. A QRP radio that a tech at Flesystem described
the KX3 to me as a SDR radio like the 1500, but with knobs and a
screen. With the PX3 I got a bandscope/panadaptor. What more could I
ask for...

I guess my 35+ years in the electronic engineering field and 50 years
as a ham operator sometimes gives me a perspective that comes in handy
once in a while. (has been know to get me in trouble and flamed to.
Find that fun also..LOL)

GN 73 Harry K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:29 PM, Keith Heimbold <ag6az@hotmail.com
<mailto:ag6az@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become
stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless
remote integration against a software product that will require years
before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such.
Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature
albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman"
<harrylatterman@yahoo.com <mailto:harrylatterman@yahoo.com>> wrote:

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even
some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit
has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA
(Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga
<billion> Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS
(Giga <billion> Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does
this mean? The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the
Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison.
That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as
far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and
military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that
they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This
radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many
ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3
-5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the
software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and
those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in
their pocket book...LOL

Harry K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@arrl.net
<mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>" <ne1rd@arrl.net <mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>> wrote:
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft
Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other
software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release"
upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money.

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their
software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing
something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all
software should be free because some of it is free is not a good
argument.

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered
for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities
to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If,
for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature,
why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be
compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the
things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of
things is software: software for your logging, software for
propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other
devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this --
but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is
cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm
sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development
for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect
their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of
course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)


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Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3

Dale J. <dj2001x@...>
 

Elecraft is top notch in customer service. I've never seen anything like it in my 50 plus years of hamming and buying gear from various places and mfg's.

I've built two K3's, they are a fun project with no frustrations.

Factory built is a good way to go too. The price difference isn't that much.

GL with your new K3

Dale, k9vuj

On 07, May 2014, at 0:05, avidmar@sbcglobal.net wrote:



WM6P,
I thought about putting it together myself but chose a built unit to get the factory burn in. I only had one question since getting it and the factory response was immediate. They really do care about their customers.
Art



Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Carl Moreschi
 

Non-resonate antennas might be 20 db down but that still works fine for monitoring other bands. I was quite surprised with this.

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 5/7/2014 3:18 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:
Here is my question on the subject of 4 or 8 slices. I have 14 monoband
antennas 160 - 2 meters. With my switching matrix I can have any two
going to the two transmit ports of the Flex 6700 or one going to the one
transmit port of the 6500. How am I going to hear much on some other
slice with a totally non-resonant antenna feeding those slices, assuming
I am not listening on the same band?

Sure I could put up a G5RV, but why would I chose to do that? Yes I have
a Wellbrook 20-foot circumferential broadband loop I can put on the RX
port, but it doesn't hear like a 5-element yagi at 70 feet.

I am confused as to how to really use more than two slices. One friend
has an 8-band vertical, so he is in good shape. He can hear equally
poorly on all bands.

Rob, NC0B

Sent from my iPad

On May 6, 2014, at 11:31 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@yahoo.com
<mailto:harrylatterman@yahoo.com>> wrote:

Keith,

Keep in mind that I am just speculating on the time frame. This is a
radio that is very advance with extremely powerful insides that
requires a lot of thought and software development. What has been
unleashed is very impressive. But it is still in the early stages.
Just look at the simple K3, P3, KPA500, KAT500, KX3 and how many
things have been fixed and added the past few years. I say simple,
because you really can not compare the computing power and code in the
Flex to that of all the Elecraft products combined and get even close
to what goes on every microsecond during operation.

The Flex is one neat system, but I will stick with the K3....K-Line
family I have and the KX3 and soon the PX3. One band is enough for me.
For the price of just one 6700 I can have more then one K3/P3 and/or
KX3/PX3 and look at more then one band. Right now at my QTH I have the
K3/P3 doing all the heavy lifting and the IC-756PROII doing the light
stuff, like keep a eye on 10 or 6 meters. When I see wiggle I switch
the K3 and turn off the PRO or put it on another band. Have up to 8
bands at one time is neat, but when you step back and look at it
logically it is just plane silly. ...That is the way I look at it.
Others might not, but we all have our opinion of what works for us.

The Flex 1500 I had until recently was nice, fun and did little
compared to the K3/P3. That is why I am excited and jumped on the
first run of the PX3. A QRP radio that a tech at Flesystem described
the KX3 to me as a SDR radio like the 1500, but with knobs and a
screen. With the PX3 I got a bandscope/panadaptor. What more could I
ask for...

I guess my 35+ years in the electronic engineering field and 50 years
as a ham operator sometimes gives me a perspective that comes in handy
once in a while. (has been know to get me in trouble and flamed to.
Find that fun also..LOL)

GN 73 Harry K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:29 PM, Keith Heimbold <ag6az@hotmail.com
<mailto:ag6az@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become
stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless
remote integration against a software product that will require years
before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such.
Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature
albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman"
<harrylatterman@yahoo.com <mailto:harrylatterman@yahoo.com>> wrote:

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even
some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit
has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA
(Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga
<billion> Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS
(Giga <billion> Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does
this mean? The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the
Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison.
That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as
far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and
military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that
they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This
radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many
ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3
-5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the
software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and
those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in
their pocket book...LOL

Harry K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@arrl.net
<mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>" <ne1rd@arrl.net <mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>> wrote:
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft
Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other
software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release"
upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money.

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their
software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing
something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all
software should be free because some of it is free is not a good
argument.

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered
for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities
to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If,
for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature,
why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be
compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the
things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of
things is software: software for your logging, software for
propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other
devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this --
but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is
cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm
sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development
for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect
their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of
course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)



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Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Carl Moreschi
 

Flex is very stable now.

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 5/7/2014 12:29 AM, Keith Heimbold wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become stable
from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless remote
integration against a software product that will require years before it
is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such. Definitely an even
more expensive toy to play with than other mature albeit older
technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@yahoo.com
<mailto:harrylatterman@yahoo.com>> wrote:

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even
some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has
a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable
Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga <billion>
Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga
<billion> Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this
mean? The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC
or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not
your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above
anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military
equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that
they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This
radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many
ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3
-5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the
software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and
those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their
pocket book...LOL

Harry K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@arrl.net
<mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>" <ne1rd@arrl.net <mailto:ne1rd@arrl.net>> wrote:
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft
Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software
packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are
offered for free. But, major releases cost money.

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their
software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing
something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software
should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument.

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered
for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities
to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If,
for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature,
why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be
compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the
things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of
things is software: software for your logging, software for
propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices.
Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that
decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to
develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft
has invested thousands of hours in software development for their
various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to
charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that
same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)


Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Dale J. <dj2001x@...>
 

3 to 5 years from now all that high powered hardware that you mentioned will be obsolete.

Moore's law <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_Law>

Dale, k9vuj

On 06, May 2014, at 21:46, harry latterman <harrylatterman@yahoo.com> wrote:



The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga <billion> Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga <billion> Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean? The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@arrl.net" <ne1rd@arrl.net> wrote:
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money.

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument.

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)





Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Rob Sherwood
 

Here is my question on the subject of 4 or 8 slices.  I have 14 monoband antennas 160 - 2 meters. With my switching matrix I can have any two going to the two transmit ports of the Flex 6700 or one going to the one transmit port of the 6500.  How am I going to hear much on some other slice with a totally non-resonant antenna feeding those slices, assuming I am not listening on the same band?

Sure I could put up a G5RV, but why would I chose to do that?  Yes I have a Wellbrook 20-foot circumferential broadband loop I can put on the RX port, but it doesn't hear like a 5-element yagi at 70 feet.

I am confused as to how to really use more than two slices.  One friend has an 8-band vertical, so he is in good shape.  He can hear equally poorly on all bands. 

Rob, NC0B


On May 6, 2014, at 11:31 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

 

Keith,

Keep in mind that I am just speculating on the time frame. This is a radio that is very advance with extremely powerful insides that requires a lot of thought and software development. What has been unleashed is very impressive. But it is still in the early stages. Just look at the simple K3, P3, KPA500, KAT500, KX3 and how many things have been fixed and added the past few years. I say simple, because you really can not compare the computing power and code in the Flex to that of all the Elecraft products combined and get even close to what goes on every microsecond during operation.

The Flex is one neat system, but I will stick with the K3....K-Line family I have and the KX3 and soon the PX3. One band is enough for me. For the price of just one 6700 I can have more then one K3/P3 and/or KX3/PX3 and look at more then one band. Right now at my QTH I have the K3/P3 doing all the heavy lifting and the IC-756PROII doing the light stuff, like keep a eye on 10 or 6 meters. When I see wiggle I switch the K3 and turn off the PRO or put it on another band. Have up to 8 bands at one time is neat, but when you step back and look at it logically it is just plane silly. ...That is the way I look at it. Others might not, but we all have our opinion of what works for us.

The Flex 1500 I had until recently was nice, fun and did little compared to the K3/P3. That is why I am excited and jumped on the first run of the PX3. A QRP radio that a tech at Flesystem described the KX3 to me as a SDR radio like the 1500, but with knobs and a screen. With the PX3 I got a bandscope/panadaptor. What more could I ask for...

I guess my 35+ years in the electronic engineering field and 50 years as a ham operator sometimes gives me a perspective that comes in handy once in a while. (has been know to get me in trouble and flamed to. Find that fun also..LOL)

GN 73 Harry  K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:29 PM, Keith Heimbold <ag6az@...> wrote:
 
Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless remote integration against a software product that will require years before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such. Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

 
The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean?  The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry  K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@..." <ne1rd@...> wrote:
 
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)






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Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Stephen Bloom
 

I think it just comes down to temperament.  I think something along the lines of the Flex 6000 will eventually be in the transceiver mainstream (and it is a great sign that NC0B has had success with it in contests.  The reputation of the Flexradios in the Contest community has been ..not ready for prime time ..especially for the cw folks.)  Looking at the path Elecraft is going …as the KX3 is somewhat Flex1500ish, I imagine if/when there is a K4 …it will be somewhat Flex 6000-ish, with more of a radiolike (aka knobs) user interface.  Personally (and I work in IT)..I’ve never been comfortable at the bleeding edge ..I’m what we call a “Second tier early adapter” ..I’ll jump before a technology is truly mature but I’ll let someone else work out the major bugs.  The K3 has been at that sweet spot for awhile now.   

 

73

Steve KL7SB

 

 

From: Elecraft_K3@... [mailto:Elecraft_K3@...] On Behalf Of harry latterman
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 9:29 PM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

 

 

Keith,

Keep in mind that I am just speculating on the time frame. This is a radio that is very advance with extremely powerful insides that requires a lot of thought and software development. What has been unleashed is very impressive. But it is still in the early stages. Just look at the simple K3, P3, KPA500, KAT500, KX3 and how many things have been fixed and added the past few years. I say simple, because you really can not compare the computing power and code in the Flex to that of all the Elecraft products combined and get even close to what goes on every microsecond during operation.

The Flex is one neat system, but I will stick with the K3....K-Line family I have and the KX3 and soon the PX3. One band is enough for me. For the price of just one 6700 I can have more then one K3/P3 and/or KX3/PX3 and look at more then one band. Right now at my QTH I have the K3/P3 doing all the heavy lifting and the IC-756PROII doing the light stuff, like keep a eye on 10 or 6 meters. When I see wiggle I switch the K3 and turn off the PRO or put it on another band. Have up to 8 bands at one time is neat, but when you step back and look at it logically it is just plane silly. ...That is the way I look at it. Others might not, but we all have our opinion of what works for us.

The Flex 1500 I had until recently was nice, fun and did little compared to the K3/P3. That is why I am excited and jumped on the first run of the PX3. A QRP radio that a tech at Flesystem described the KX3 to me as a SDR radio like the 1500, but with knobs and a screen. With the PX3 I got a bandscope/panadaptor. What more could I ask for...

I guess my 35+ years in the electronic engineering field and 50 years as a ham operator sometimes gives me a perspective that comes in handy once in a while. (has been know to get me in trouble and flamed to. Find that fun also..LOL)

GN 73 Harry  K7ZOV

 

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:29 PM, Keith Heimbold <ag6az@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless remote integration against a software product that will require years before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such. Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

 

Keith

AK6ZZ

please excuse typos


On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

 

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean?  The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry  K7OZV

 

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@..." <ne1rd@...> wrote:

 

Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

 

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

 

-- Scott (NE1RD)

 

 


Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Keith,

Keep in mind that I am just speculating on the time frame. This is a radio that is very advance with extremely powerful insides that requires a lot of thought and software development. What has been unleashed is very impressive. But it is still in the early stages. Just look at the simple K3, P3, KPA500, KAT500, KX3 and how many things have been fixed and added the past few years. I say simple, because you really can not compare the computing power and code in the Flex to that of all the Elecraft products combined and get even close to what goes on every microsecond during operation.

The Flex is one neat system, but I will stick with the K3....K-Line family I have and the KX3 and soon the PX3. One band is enough for me. For the price of just one 6700 I can have more then one K3/P3 and/or KX3/PX3 and look at more then one band. Right now at my QTH I have the K3/P3 doing all the heavy lifting and the IC-756PROII doing the light stuff, like keep a eye on 10 or 6 meters. When I see wiggle I switch the K3 and turn off the PRO or put it on another band. Have up to 8 bands at one time is neat, but when you step back and look at it logically it is just plane silly. ...That is the way I look at it. Others might not, but we all have our opinion of what works for us.

The Flex 1500 I had until recently was nice, fun and did little compared to the K3/P3. That is why I am excited and jumped on the first run of the PX3. A QRP radio that a tech at Flesystem described the KX3 to me as a SDR radio like the 1500, but with knobs and a screen. With the PX3 I got a bandscope/panadaptor. What more could I ask for...

I guess my 35+ years in the electronic engineering field and 50 years as a ham operator sometimes gives me a perspective that comes in handy once in a while. (has been know to get me in trouble and flamed to. Find that fun also..LOL)

GN 73 Harry  K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:29 PM, Keith Heimbold wrote:
 
Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless remote integration against a software product that will require years before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such. Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

 
The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean?  The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry  K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@..." <ne1rd@...> wrote:
 
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)





Re: New K3

n9aop2000
 

WM6P,
I thought about putting it together myself but chose a built unit to get the factory burn in.  I only had one question since getting it and the factory response was immediate.  They really do care about their customers.
Art


Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Phil Wheeler <w7ox@...>
 

Ah, yes. And I remember when the NC-40 a was thought to be a fairly complex QRP rig.

73, Phil w7ox

On 5/6/14, 9:19 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
Reminds me of when I was happy with an NE602 mixer and an LM386 AF amp forming the entire receiver (e.g., NorCal "Forty-Niner").


Wayne
N6KR


On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, harry latterman  wrote:


….
So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development.



Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Keith Heimbold <ag6az@...>
 

Thanks for the heads up on a 3-5 year wait for the flex to become stable from a software perspective. Guess one must weigh more seamless remote integration against a software product that will require years before it is beyond beta. I am disappointed to hear as such. Definitely an even more expensive toy to play with than other mature albeit older technology options. Plus no knobs. Hmmmm.

Keith
AK6ZZ

please excuse typos

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "harry latterman" <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

 

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga <billion> Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga <billion> Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean?  The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry  K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@..." <ne1rd@...> wrote:
 
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)



Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Wayne,

That was a good one.... Sad but true. That said there is still room for K.I.S.S. designs in the QRP world. I still have about 2 dozen NE602 and LM386's for just that reason. A blast back into the past... Also a work in progress...Something called a HW-101. A real man's radio. hihi

Have a great evening. 73 Harry  K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:19 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
Reminds me of when I was happy with an NE602 mixer and an LM386 AF amp forming the entire receiver (e.g., NorCal "Forty-Niner").

Wayne
N6KR

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, harry latterman <harrylatterman@...> wrote:

> ….
> So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development.





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Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

 

Reminds me of when I was happy with an NE602 mixer and an LM386 AF amp forming the entire receiver (e.g., NorCal "Forty-Niner").

Wayne
N6KR

On May 6, 2014, at 7:46 PM, harry latterman <harrylatterman@yahoo.com> wrote:

….
So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development.


Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

The Flex-6000, as I stated before, has more computing power then even some high end servers. From what I have been able to find the unit has a ARM Cortex-A8/Neon CPU, Xilinx Virtex-6 FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) and tucks along at 317 GMAC (Giga Multiply-Accumulate Operations per Second) and 121 GFLOPS (Giga Floating Point Operations Per Secon). So what does this mean?  The Flex-6000 is a bloody Super Computer. Makes the Fastest PC or MAC look like a hand held calculator in comparison. That means not your typical software. The complexity of this radio as far and above anything I have ever seen, except in the commercial and military equipment market.

So based on this level of complexity it is understandable to me that they need to recover some of the costs of software development. This radio is light years ahead of the Flex-5000/PSDR radio in many ways.

If you want a super computer for a radio you will pay for it in many ways. It is a radio technology that is a work in progress. In maybe 3 -5 yrs from now it should be a stable design when it comes to the software. For now it is a very advance radio with a ways to go and those who jump in now will have a interesting ride and a hole in their pocket book...LOL

Harry  K7OZV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:14 PM, "ne1rd@..." wrote:
 
Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)



Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

ne1rd_ham
 

Upgrades (major upgrades) are often offered at a cost. Microsoft Office, Adobe Design Suite, Autodesk, and any number of other software packages are offered for a price and small "dot release" upgrades are offered for free. But, major releases cost money. 

Software costs money to write. Even people who give away their software (like me) invest time where they could have been doing something else to enrich their life. The expectation that all software should be free because some of it is free is not a good argument. 

It is terrific when software releases (even major ones) are offered for free, but asking all users who benefit from the new capabilities to contribute financially to its development is not unreasonable. If, for example, a new software release gives your radio a new feature, why shouldn't the developer offer to sell it to you (and not be compelled to just give it away)?

Few of us have unlimited funds for the hobby. We must budget for the things that make our stations effective. One of those categories of things is software: software for your logging, software for propagation prediction, and software for your radio and other devices. Elecraft has (so far) allowed us to budget zero for this -- but that decision should not be conflated to mean software is cost-free to develop. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm sure Elecraft has invested thousands of hours in software development for their various products. I respect that commitment and respect their right to charge for upgrades, should they ever do it. Flex, of course, has that same right.

-- Scott (NE1RD)


Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Carl Moreschi
 

Also, don't forget these Flex 6000 radios don't have many options. The only one I am really aware of is the GPS option. So you don't ever have to buy filters or tuners.

I don't think any company in this business would want to rip off their customers since we all talk to each other.

The 6500 is $4300 and the 6700 is $7300. The funny thing is I am finding more people with the 6700 than the 6500. I guess there's more rich hams than I am aware of. (hi hi)

Carl Moreschi N4PY
58 Hogwood Rd
Louisburg, NC 27549
www.n4py.com

On 5/6/2014 5:06 PM, harry latterman wrote:
Some bugs are called features too. They way they don't get fixed.... I
understand you point also and if gives any company that charges a fee a
change to rip their customer base

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 1:09 PM, harry latterman
<harrylatterman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Fred,

You might be right about the license approach. I suspect that 'bug'
fixes will still be free, but if you want a major upgrade you will
pay.... Then again with the 6700 being, I believe, $7,500 or so they
have already cut the market for the product down to a select few anyway.
I suspect that if you can afford a $7,000-$10,000 a couple of hundred
dollars more is nothing more then pocket change.

I am glad that Elecraft has the support they have. Makes up for the
price of their equipment as far as I am concerned. The hams I know, 7
out of 10 or there about, would love a K3 and are priced out of the
market. So if they can't swing either of those I would say the 6500 and
6700 are never going to be on the radar.

In my case the K3/100 was a radio of dreams and something I would never
own because it was way out of my price range. I picked up a used Tentec
Eagle and was amazed at how well it worked and showed it off a lot.
Everyone else was amazed also. Well one of the amazed on lookers has
Parkinson's Disease with shakes that ranged from bad to really bad some
days and just could not handle the ergonomics of the front panel any
more. He approached me a work, on a really bad week, and asked if I
would do straight trade. 10 microseconds later I said YES!. If it had
not been for that trade a K3 would never have been in my life. The
P3/SVGA was used, 60% off the P3 kit price and the SVGA, that was never
installed free. Sold a few things to pay for that. The only major
Elecraft products that I did pay for was the KPA500 and KAT500 in kit
form, with the little money my mother left me when she passed away. If
that had not happened I would never have ever owned a Elecraft QRO
setup. I would have gone with a $700 tube job most likely.

I now have a retirement station beyond anything I could ever imagine. If
I had to pay for it out right it would never have happened. When radio
set-ups start hitting $3000 the market get small. As the price goes up
the market gets smaller and smaller. The Flex 6500/6700 will be a tiny
market for sometime, thus charging a up grade fee will be a must.

My nickles worth of rambling....

73 Harry K7ZOV
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 10:26 AM, Fred Townsend
<fptownsend@earthlink.net> wrote:
Free upgrades are the norm for what I will call private and commercial
software. For industrial software such as CAD, RF Analysis Tools, NC,
and Test Programs like Labview which are used to produce a product you
must lease/license the software and pay an annual maintainence fee. Some
call it a support fee which means they will take your phone call when
you call tech support.
It would appear Flex is trying to move the goal posts a bit and adopt
industrial licensing practices There are consquences to such practices
that the buyer may not see until you try to sell the rig. The sale is
for the hardware and doesn't necessarly include a software license. In
the case of Elecraft to seller tells the buyer the software has a free
license with free upgrades and the sale is consomated. However the Flex
buyer must buy their own license. This has to reduce the resale value of
any product that does not have a free software license.
73,
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: May 5, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3

Reference to Microsoft relates to their new Office365 approach.

Phil w7ox

On 5/4/14, 8:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

Even Microsoft provides Windows Updates - bug fixes and driver
updates free for the life of the product. Flex could/should
take a page from Microsoft, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, microHAM and
others, software updates are free for the life of the product.

A $200/year software license fee is certainly not justified. Perhaps
some of the less well known makers of DDC products will have more
appropriate policies.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/4/2014 9:47 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Are they owned by Adobe or Microsoft?
>
>
> Phil w7ox
>
>
> On 5/4/14, 3:42 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>>
>> One aspect of Flex ownership that really turned
>> me off is their $200 yearly subscription for
>> updates after the first year.
>> If Elecraft started doing that, I'd be gone in a
>> flash.
>> I don't mind buying a new board that has some
>> known extra features, but to demand a $200
>> payment every year on the off chance that
>> something new might come along is not a company
>> I wish to be associated with.
>> This is my understanding of the Flex update
>> policy. Am I off-base here?
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH





Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Some bugs are called features too. They way they don't get fixed.... I understand you point also and if gives any company that charges a fee a change to rip their customer base

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 1:09 PM, harry latterman wrote:
 
Fred,

You might be right about the license approach. I suspect that 'bug' fixes will still be free, but if you want a major upgrade you will pay.... Then again with the 6700 being, I believe, $7,500 or so they have already cut the market for the product down to a select few anyway. I suspect that if you can afford a $7,000-$10,000 a couple of hundred dollars more is nothing more then pocket change.

I am glad that Elecraft has the support they have. Makes up for the price of their equipment as far as I am concerned. The hams I know, 7 out of 10 or there about, would love a K3  and are priced out of the market. So if they can't swing either of those I would say the 6500 and 6700 are never going to be on the radar.

In my case the K3/100 was a radio of dreams and something I would never own because it was way out of my price range. I picked up a used Tentec Eagle and was amazed at how well it worked and showed it off a lot. Everyone else was amazed also. Well one of the amazed on lookers has Parkinson's Disease with shakes that ranged from bad to really bad some days and just could not handle the ergonomics of the front panel any more. He approached me a work, on a really bad week, and asked if I would do straight trade. 10 microseconds later I said YES!. If it had not been for that trade a K3 would never have been in my life. The P3/SVGA was used, 60% off the P3 kit price and the SVGA, that was never installed free. Sold a few things to pay for that. The only major Elecraft products that I did pay for was the KPA500 and KAT500 in kit form, with the little money my mother left me when she passed away. If that had not happened I would never have ever owned a Elecraft QRO setup. I would have gone with a $700 tube job most likely.

I now have a retirement station beyond anything I could ever imagine. If I had to pay for it out right it would never have happened. When radio set-ups start hitting $3000 the market get small. As the price goes up the market gets smaller and smaller. The Flex 6500/6700 will be a tiny market for sometime, thus charging a up grade fee will be a must.

My nickles worth of rambling....

73 Harry K7ZOV
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 10:26 AM, Fred Townsend wrote:
 
Free upgrades are the norm for what I will call private and commercial software. For industrial software such as CAD, RF Analysis Tools, NC, and Test Programs like Labview which are used to produce a product you must lease/license the software and pay an annual maintainence fee. Some call it a support fee which means they will take your phone call when you call tech support.
 
It would appear Flex is trying to move the goal posts a bit and adopt industrial licensing practices There are consquences to such practices that the buyer may not see until you try to sell the rig. The sale is for the hardware and doesn't necessarly include a software license. In the case of Elecraft to seller tells the buyer the software has a free license with free upgrades and  the sale is consomated. However the Flex buyer must buy their own license. This has to reduce the resale value of any product that does not have a free software license.
73,
Fred, AE6QL
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: May 5, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3

 
Reference to Microsoft relates to their new Office365 approach.

Phil w7ox

On 5/4/14, 8:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
 

Even Microsoft provides Windows Updates - bug fixes and driver
updates free for the life of the product. Flex could/should
take a page from Microsoft, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, microHAM and
others, software updates are free for the life of the product.

A $200/year software license fee is certainly not justified. Perhaps
some of the less well known makers of DDC products will have more
appropriate policies.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/4/2014 9:47 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Are they owned by Adobe or Microsoft?
>
>
> Phil w7ox
>
>
> On 5/4/14, 3:42 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>>
>> One aspect of Flex ownership that really turned
>> me off is their $200 yearly subscription for
>> updates after the first year.
>> If Elecraft started doing that, I'd be gone in a
>> flash.
>> I don't mind buying a new board that has some
>> known extra features, but to demand a $200
>> payment every year on the off chance that
>> something new might come along is not a company
>> I wish to be associated with.
>> This is my understanding of the Flex update
>> policy. Am I off-base here?
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH






Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Dale J. <dj2001x@...>
 

How is it determined if it's a bug fix or a major upgrade. You see, sometimes major upgrades are also bug fixes. Bug fixes alone could be rare.

Dale, k9vuj

On 06, May 2014, at 15:09, harry latterman <harrylatterman@yahoo.com> wrote:



Fred,

You might be right about the license approach. I suspect that 'bug' fixes will still be free, but if you want a major upgrade you will pay.... Then again with the 6700 being, I believe, $7,500 or so they have already cut the market for the product down to a select few anyway. I suspect that if you can afford a $7,000-$10,000 a couple of hundred dollars more is nothing more then pocket change.

I am glad that Elecraft has the support they have. Makes up for the price of their equipment as far as I am concerned. The hams I know, 7 out of 10 or there about, would love a K3 and are priced out of the market. So if they can't swing either of those I would say the 6500 and 6700 are never going to be on the radar.

In my case the K3/100 was a radio of dreams and something I would never own because it was way out of my price range. I picked up a used Tentec Eagle and was amazed at how well it worked and showed it off a lot. Everyone else was amazed also. Well one of the amazed on lookers has Parkinson's Disease with shakes that ranged from bad to really bad some days and just could not handle the ergonomics of the front panel any more. He approached me a work, on a really bad week, and asked if I would do straight trade. 10 microseconds later I said YES!. If it had not been for that trade a K3 would never have been in my life. The P3/SVGA was used, 60% off the P3 kit price and the SVGA, that was never installed free. Sold a few things to pay for that. The only major Elecraft products that I did pay for was the KPA500 and KAT500 in kit form, with the little money my mother left me when she passed away. If that had not happened I would never have ever owned a Elecraft QRO setup. I would have gone with a $700 tube job most likely.

I now have a retirement station beyond anything I could ever imagine. If I had to pay for it out right it would never have happened. When radio set-ups start hitting $3000 the market get small. As the price goes up the market gets smaller and smaller. The Flex 6500/6700 will be a tiny market for sometime, thus charging a up grade fee will be a must.

My nickles worth of rambling....

73 Harry K7ZOV
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 10:26 AM, Fred Townsend <fptownsend@earthlink.net> wrote:
Free upgrades are the norm for what I will call private and commercial software. For industrial software such as CAD, RF Analysis Tools, NC, and Test Programs like Labview which are used to produce a product you must lease/license the software and pay an annual maintainence fee. Some call it a support fee which means they will take your phone call when you call tech support.

It would appear Flex is trying to move the goal posts a bit and adopt industrial licensing practices There are consquences to such practices that the buyer may not see until you try to sell the rig. The sale is for the hardware and doesn't necessarly include a software license. In the case of Elecraft to seller tells the buyer the software has a free license with free upgrades and the sale is consomated. However the Flex buyer must buy their own license. This has to reduce the resale value of any product that does not have a free software license.
73,
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: May 5, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3


Reference to Microsoft relates to their new Office365 approach.

Phil w7ox

On 5/4/14, 8:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


Even Microsoft provides Windows Updates - bug fixes and driver
updates free for the life of the product. Flex could/should
take a page from Microsoft, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, microHAM and
others, software updates are free for the life of the product.

A $200/year software license fee is certainly not justified. Perhaps
some of the less well known makers of DDC products will have more
appropriate policies.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/4/2014 9:47 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
Are they owned by Adobe or Microsoft?


Phil w7ox


On 5/4/14, 3:42 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:

One aspect of Flex ownership that really turned
me off is their $200 yearly subscription for
updates after the first year.
If Elecraft started doing that, I'd be gone in a
flash.
I don't mind buying a new board that has some
known extra features, but to demand a $200
payment every year on the off chance that
something new might come along is not a company
I wish to be associated with.
This is my understanding of the Flex update
policy. Am I off-base here?
73, Charlie k3ICH





Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

harry latterman <harrylatterman@...>
 

Fred,

You might be right about the license approach. I suspect that 'bug' fixes will still be free, but if you want a major upgrade you will pay.... Then again with the 6700 being, I believe, $7,500 or so they have already cut the market for the product down to a select few anyway. I suspect that if you can afford a $7,000-$10,000 a couple of hundred dollars more is nothing more then pocket change.

I am glad that Elecraft has the support they have. Makes up for the price of their equipment as far as I am concerned. The hams I know, 7 out of 10 or there about, would love a K3  and are priced out of the market. So if they can't swing either of those I would say the 6500 and 6700 are never going to be on the radar.

In my case the K3/100 was a radio of dreams and something I would never own because it was way out of my price range. I picked up a used Tentec Eagle and was amazed at how well it worked and showed it off a lot. Everyone else was amazed also. Well one of the amazed on lookers has Parkinson's Disease with shakes that ranged from bad to really bad some days and just could not handle the ergonomics of the front panel any more. He approached me a work, on a really bad week, and asked if I would do straight trade. 10 microseconds later I said YES!. If it had not been for that trade a K3 would never have been in my life. The P3/SVGA was used, 60% off the P3 kit price and the SVGA, that was never installed free. Sold a few things to pay for that. The only major Elecraft products that I did pay for was the KPA500 and KAT500 in kit form, with the little money my mother left me when she passed away. If that had not happened I would never have ever owned a Elecraft QRO setup. I would have gone with a $700 tube job most likely.

I now have a retirement station beyond anything I could ever imagine. If I had to pay for it out right it would never have happened. When radio set-ups start hitting $3000 the market get small. As the price goes up the market gets smaller and smaller. The Flex 6500/6700 will be a tiny market for sometime, thus charging a up grade fee will be a must.

My nickles worth of rambling....

73 Harry K7ZOV

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 10:26 AM, Fred Townsend wrote:
 
Free upgrades are the norm for what I will call private and commercial software. For industrial software such as CAD, RF Analysis Tools, NC, and Test Programs like Labview which are used to produce a product you must lease/license the software and pay an annual maintainence fee. Some call it a support fee which means they will take your phone call when you call tech support.
 
It would appear Flex is trying to move the goal posts a bit and adopt industrial licensing practices There are consquences to such practices that the buyer may not see until you try to sell the rig. The sale is for the hardware and doesn't necessarly include a software license. In the case of Elecraft to seller tells the buyer the software has a free license with free upgrades and  the sale is consomated. However the Flex buyer must buy their own license. This has to reduce the resale value of any product that does not have a free software license.
73,
Fred, AE6QL
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: May 5, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3

 
Reference to Microsoft relates to their new Office365 approach.

Phil w7ox

On 5/4/14, 8:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
 

Even Microsoft provides Windows Updates - bug fixes and driver
updates free for the life of the product. Flex could/should
take a page from Microsoft, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, microHAM and
others, software updates are free for the life of the product.

A $200/year software license fee is certainly not justified. Perhaps
some of the less well known makers of DDC products will have more
appropriate policies.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/4/2014 9:47 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Are they owned by Adobe or Microsoft?
>
>
> Phil w7ox
>
>
> On 5/4/14, 3:42 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>>
>> One aspect of Flex ownership that really turned
>> me off is their $200 yearly subscription for
>> updates after the first year.
>> If Elecraft started doing that, I'd be gone in a
>> flash.
>> I don't mind buying a new board that has some
>> known extra features, but to demand a $200
>> payment every year on the off chance that
>> something new might come along is not a company
>> I wish to be associated with.
>> This is my understanding of the Flex update
>> policy. Am I off-base here?
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH




Re: [Elecraft_K3] OT Industrial Software, was New K3

Fred Townsend
 

Free upgrades are the norm for what I will call private and commercial software. For industrial software such as CAD, RF Analysis Tools, NC, and Test Programs like Labview which are used to produce a product you must lease/license the software and pay an annual maintainence fee. Some call it a support fee which means they will take your phone call when you call tech support.

 

It would appear Flex is trying to move the goal posts a bit and adopt industrial licensing practices There are consquences to such practices that the buyer may not see until you try to sell the rig. The sale is for the hardware and doesn't necessarly include a software license. In the case of Elecraft to seller tells the buyer the software has a free license with free upgrades and  the sale is consomated. However the Flex buyer must buy their own license. This has to reduce the resale value of any product that does not have a free software license.

73,

Fred, AE6QL

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: May 5, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Elecraft_K3@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft_K3] New K3

 

Reference to Microsoft relates to their new Office365 approach.

Phil w7ox

On 5/4/14, 8:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
 


Even Microsoft provides Windows Updates - bug fixes and driver
updates free for the life of the product. Flex could/should
take a page from Microsoft, Elecraft, Ten-Tec, microHAM and
others, software updates are free for the life of the product.

A $200/year software license fee is certainly not justified. Perhaps
some of the less well known makers of DDC products will have more
appropriate policies.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/4/2014 9:47 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Are they owned by Adobe or Microsoft?
>
>
> Phil w7ox
>
>
> On 5/4/14, 3:42 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>>
>> One aspect of Flex ownership that really turned
>> me off is their $200 yearly subscription for
>> updates after the first year.
>> If Elecraft started doing that, I'd be gone in a
>> flash.
>> I don't mind buying a new board that has some
>> known extra features, but to demand a $200
>> payment every year on the off chance that
>> something new might come along is not a company
>> I wish to be associated with.
>> This is my understanding of the Flex update
>> policy. Am I off-base here?
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH


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