Topics

How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

Patrick Bouldin KM5L
 

Who really notices a big positive change with the preselectors available at Elad? Which ones and why?


73,
Patrick KM5L

Clint Chron
 

Hi Patrick,

 

Some SDR radios have built-in front end bandpass filters on the receivers and some do not.  The S2 and Duos radios have no front-end filters.  The main purchase of the pre-selector is to reduce the signal level of interfering signals on adjacent bands.  Adjacent bands include ham bands, short wave bands, and the AM broadcast band.  The S2 receiver and the Duo transceiver have an ADC overload point of about –9 dbm.  The ADC overload point shows up a flashing red “ADC CLIP” on the SW-2 software.  On the front display of the Duo, the ADC overload also shows up as a flashing “PK” below the S meter dbm signal level.  When a SDR receiver reaches the ADC overload point, all received signals are greatly distorted and distortion products are created.  On the S2 and Duo, the actual signal distortion point is about -6 dbm.  Please note that the ADC Clip point of -9 dbm is for a single signal.  The ADC clip point decreases as additional strong signals are added to the mix.

 

If you have no strong adjacent band signals i.e. your ADC chip is not being overloaded, then a pre-selector is not going to improve performance.  A pre-selector adds about 1 to 3 db of insertion loss, so your receiver sensitivity degrades.

 

At my QTH, I have a number of very strong AM broadcast stations located about 12 miles away.  Some of these stations have signal levels of -30 dbm on my spectrum analyzer.  These strong signals turn on my ADC CLIP icon.  To get rid of the ADC clipping, I can do one of several things:

 

Enable the Duo’s attenuator.  This usually gets rid of the clipping but also reduces the receiver’s sensitivity.

Install an AM Band High Pass Filter in the receive line.  This filter greatly reduces any signals that are less than 1.8 Mhz in frequency.

Install an AM Band Band Reject Filter in the receive line.  This filter greatly reduces any signals in the AM broad band.

Install a pre-selector in the receive line.  The pre-selector filters greatly reduces the AM broadcast signals and any adjacent band signals.

 

The S2 and Duo radios can also be overloaded with inband signals.  Example:  I am operating at 7.250 Mhz and a strong CW signal is at 7.080 Mhz.  A fixed band pre-selector will not be of any help in reducing the level of the 7.080 Mhz CW signal.

 

The Elad SPF-08 and QSF-06 pre-selectors can be a big help in getting rid of the ADC CLIP overload, if the correct filters are installed in the pre-selector.  Here is a typical example of how the pre-selector can reduce ADC overload.

I have a neighbor ham that is operating at 1 KW on 80 meters.  His strong 80M signal is at -9 dbm into my Duo radio that is operating at 7.200 MHz.  The ADC CLIP icon is turning on.  I insert an Elad pre-selector in front of my Duo.  The pre-selector 40M filter drops the 80M signal 40 db.  So the 80M signal is now at about -49 dbm.  I no longer see any ADC overload.  My 7.200 Mhz signal comes through fine – and is reduced only 2 db in signal level.

 

For those that are interested, I can provide SW-2 screen snapshots of how an Elad pre-selector can greatly reduce signal levels in adjacent bands.  I can also provide sweeps of the Elad pre-selector filters.

 

73

Clint

W7KEC

 

 

 

 

 

From: EladSDR@groups.io [mailto:EladSDR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Patrick Bouldin KM5L
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 8:17 PM
To: EladSDR@groups.io
Subject: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

 

Who really notices a big positive change with the preselectors available at Elad? Which ones and why?


73,
Patrick KM5L

Paul White
 

Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.

Paul Jones
 

Paul

I have requested a few months ago new filters to also cover the main broadcast bands that swl users can make use of. 

Also a dedicated am 520-1800 notch filter

Paul EladUSA 


On Mar 19, 2020, at 06:07, Paul White <paul@...> wrote:

Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

Sounds like an opportunity for someone to design and make filter boards for other specific uses.  I'd like a narrow one for 136kHz for example.

Neil G4DBN

#notvolunteering


On 19/03/2020 10:07, Paul White wrote:
Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.
-- 
Neil
http://g4dbn.uk

Clint Chron
 

Hi Paul White,

 

I suspect that there would not be enough demand for the special filters to warrant Elad’s financial investment in the project.   The current Elad ham band filters, while effective, do not use a standard design.  Please keep in mind that the available Elad filters are wider than a ham band, so they are usable for some SWL bands.  I am hoping that Elad will provide schematics for the SWL/Ham bands using their FPCB-B3 and FPCB-H5 bare circuit boards. 

 

Here is what I measured on the Elad filters for the low/high -3 db filter points:

 

80M       3.2 – 4.5 MHz

40M       6.4 – 8.6 MHz                     standard 3 pole filter designed with Elsie would have a band pass of 6.6 – 8.3 MHz

20M       12.4 – 15.3 MHz

 

The current Elad circuit boards are very small and can probably only accommodate a filter with a small number of poles (max of 3 toroid coils).  A bare board could be redesigned to use filters that could be modeled with a program such as Elsie.  The board could be designed to use through-hole parts (no SMT parts) so that it would be easy to assemble.   If you only need a filter for a specific SWL band, then one could easily be built and installed in a small enclosure.  I have a AM broadcast band reject notch filter that covers 500 to 1600 Khz.  I use this filter to get rid of the ADC overload on my Duo (there are strong AM broadcast stations near my QTH).  With this filter, I can listen to the 200 to 500 Khz band.  With the typical AM band high pass filter, any frequency below 1600 Khz would be filtered out.

 

Here is a link to a HF band pass filter board that has continuous coverage of all bands (ham and SW) from about 1.7 to 64 MHz in 10 separate bands:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BPF-band-pass-filter-for-SDR-HERMES-ANAN-10-HF-transceiver/152111322734?hash=item236a8a966e:g:0RcAAOSwgHJZyjz7

 

The board uses BCD control for changing bands.  I have designed a small BCD controller circuit board that interfaces to the DB9 connector on the S2 and Duo radios.  You could also use the Elad SFE Experimenter board to do the same thing.

 

Good luck.

 

73

Clint

W7KEC

 

 

 

From: EladSDR@groups.io [mailto:EladSDR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul White
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 3:08 AM
To: EladSDR@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

 

Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.

Clint Chron
 

Hi Paul,

 

This is a test to see if JPG pictures come through in an email on the groups.io site.

 

Here is a spectrum display of the AM broadcast band at my QTH in Phoenix, AZ.

 

 

I get ADC overload on my Duo radio, even though there are no signals that are stronger than -10 dbm.

 

Here is the same spectrum using an AM band stop band (reject) notch filter:

 

ADC overload is gone.  Using this band stop filter, I can listen to beacon signals in the 200 – 500 Khz band.

 

If the pictures do not come through, then please send me your email address and I can send them to you.

 

73

Clint

W7KEC

 

From: EladSDR@groups.io [mailto:EladSDR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Jones
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 3:15 AM
To: EladSDR@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

 

Paul

 

I have requested a few months ago new filters to also cover the main broadcast bands that swl users can make use of. 

 

Also a dedicated am 520-1800 notch filter

 

Paul EladUSA 



On Mar 19, 2020, at 06:07, Paul White <paul@...> wrote:

Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.

Klaus Brosche, DK3QN
 

If you are 'ok' with a manually-tuned low-cost preselector, it might be worthwhile to have a look
at the BCC (Bavarian Contest Club) preselector (design dated from ca. 1998).

There is a brief description including schematics and component data available in English:

http://www.bavarian-contest-club.de/projects/presel/list.htm

On that webpage there is a further link to the full description (PDF) in German.

The design could be simplified to one's specific needs by adapting/eliminating
some of the rotary switches


For the Input and Output transformers (9:1), Mini-Circuits T9-1-X65 parts can be
used, if one doesn't want to wind trifilar on FT-50-43 ferrites.

There had been a discussion back in 2012 at qrpforum.de about the circuitry,
including screenshots of Graphs.
The text there is all in German, however you may just copy-and-paste that into
Google translator. Especially the Posts written by DL4ZAO are quite detailed.
You may also read the Posts by DF5SF, DJ1ZB, DL5CN:

https://www.qrpforum.de/forum/index.php?thread/7840-drehko-alternative-bcc-preselektor/&pageNo=1

73, Klaus, DK3QN

Paul White
 
Edited

Paul Jones, You are a star!

Paul White
 

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 01:02 PM, Clint Chron wrote:
I suspect that there would not be enough demand for the special filters to warrant Elad’s financial investment in the project.
I'm sure you're right, Clint, but the individual filter boards are relatively cheap and I don't suppose Elad is making a loss on these?

But your eBay link is interesting, and that could be a cost-effective, general-purpose alternative. Thanks!

Paul White
 

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 01:16 PM, Clint Chron wrote:
ADC overload is gone. 
:).

Paul White
 

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 03:45 PM, Klaus Brosche, DK3QN wrote:
There is a brief description including
Thanks for the suggestion, Klaus. A bit too ambitious for my low-level skills, unfortunately.

Otso Ylönen
 

Impressive!
 
However, I would like to have an inverted effect as a MW/AM DX listener. To the band-full of Trans-Atlantic signals, e.g. from Arizona! Seriously speaking, schematics of band-pass filters for the AM, FM and the OIRT-FM bands would be welcome.
 
BR, Otso
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. März 2020 um 13:16 Uhr
Von: "Clint Chron" <kiheiman@q.com>
An: EladSDR@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

Hi Paul,

 

This is a test to see if JPG pictures come through in an email on the groups.io site.

 

Here is a spectrum display of the AM broadcast band at my QTH in Phoenix, AZ.

 

 

I get ADC overload on my Duo radio, even though there are no signals that are stronger than -10 dbm.

 

Here is the same spectrum using an AM band stop band (reject) notch filter:

 

ADC overload is gone.  Using this band stop filter, I can listen to beacon signals in the 200 – 500 Khz band.

 

If the pictures do not come through, then please send me your email address and I can send them to you.

 

73

Clint

W7KEC

 

From: EladSDR@groups.io [mailto:EladSDR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Jones
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 3:15 AM
To: EladSDR@groups.io
Subject: Re: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

 

Paul

 

I have requested a few months ago new filters to also cover the main broadcast bands that swl users can make use of. 

 

Also a dedicated am 520-1800 notch filter

 

Paul EladUSA 


 

On Mar 19, 2020, at 06:07, Paul White <paul@...> wrote:

Hi, Clint
Isn't it a little disappointing that the available filters are designed for the amateur bands only?
I wouldn't have the skills to build on the unpopulated boards.

 

AndersH
 

Paul, dear friends,

I am surprised that the unmounted B3 filter cards from Franco are so poorly utilized and perceived by customers as mysterious or impractical.
 
I gladly share my own component values and design methods. I have two custom HF cards for the 60 meter and 49 meter broadcast bands that fit nicely in the original card slots of my DUOr. My 60 meter card  "works" while the 49 meter card is "pretty good" in my own terminology. :-)

I'm not on top of the situation when it comes to the other types of cards from ELAD, but regarding the B3, I am able to be very specific.
For illustration, I'm providing a list of my own embedded DUOr cards.

Position              4  FBP80-1          3.150.000             4.150.000
Position              5  Custom 60 meter  4.700.000             5.200.000

Position              6  Custom 49 meter  5.700.000             6.200.000

Position              7  FBP13/21        13.600.000            21.500.000

Position              8  FBP21/35        21.500.000            35.000.000

Position              9  FHP1M7-1         1.700.000            54.000.000

Position              10 FBPY(BYPASS)     0                     1.700.000


All the best!
Anders H.
SM6-8439