Date   

SW2 S-Meter #fdm-sw2 #fdm-s2 #smeter

Paul White
 

Ivo's post prompts me to air my own comment on the SW2 S-meter.
 
I'm not an expert user. There are two radio/software combinations available to me whose S-meter by reputation provides a well-defined, accurate and reliable total (not peak) power measurement: RSP1A+SDRuno and S2+SW2.
 
My use of S-meter readings includes:
(a) meaningful logging of received signal strength, for signals of any type
(b) comparative assessment of changes to system components (e.g. antenna mods)
 
I have no specialised signal measurement equipment, hence the reliance in (b).
 
In those activities (for my comfort) there are two enhancements to SW2 that could help considerably:
(1) showing Marker 1-type data in the "desert" next to the S-meter
(2) calculating/displaying an average S-meter reading as well as SNR
 
The argument for (1) is that bringing up marker data is time-consuming. For (2) it is that even relatively stable signals show fluctuations that cannot accurately be averaged by eye.
 
Refinements could be:
(3) user control over averaging period
(4) calculating/displaying the S-meter variance (standard deviation)
 
I would find (3) especially useful for slow fading, and (4) as a measure of fading severity.


Re: Fancy S-meter #eladduo #eladsw2 #smeter

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

If the noise blanker is enabled in SW2, or if the bandwidths in SW2 and on the DUO are not exactly the same, you will see differences.  Also the time constant on the DUO is long, but short on SW2, so getting a steady reading on noise is hard.  Much easier on a solid tone of course.  The calibration is within a dB or so of my HP signal generator all the way through the range on single tones.  Superhet S meters measure AGC voltage rather than the actual signal power, and things get very tricky with roofing filter IFs being in the AGC loop.

Can't say I ever use S meter readings though, they are pretty meaningless.  Signal to noise ratio or relative signal levels are much more useful.  The advanced marker measurement is very useful for that.

If Rob Sherwood says it is "close to perfect", that is pretty much case closed.

Check the bandwidths and frequecies are identical and that notches and noise reduction and noise blankers are off.  Check if the readings are different on a very strong pure tone and on band noise and a STANAG signal that is fairly constant level and see if there is anywhere the readings do match up.

Neil G4DBN

On 18/03/2020 23:15, Chris Moore wrote:
Here's what Rob Sherwood said:

S meter linearity and dBm meter linearity is as close to perfect as one could ask for.  Each S unit from S1 to S9 is 6 dB.  The dBm scale is within 1 dB from -120 dBm to -30 dBm, and is often perfect.  There is an occasional error of up to 2 dB when decreasing the signal in 5 dB steps vs. increasing the level in 5 dB steps. The S meter / dBm readings are not significantly affected by the 12 dB attenuator.  These readings are corrected in software to give the true signal level, which should be commended

I always assumed he was talking about the meter in SW2, but not sure.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:51 PM Neil Coley <coleyneil1@...> wrote:
In my experience, I’d say the duo is the most accurate. I’d do away with the S meter on sw2. Its obviously just decoration. 
I think real S meters are for superhets or Japanese hybrid sdrs - 7300/7610

The Elad S meters will get there eventually but for now......shite




On 18 Mar 2020, at 22:00, Ivo Frigo <ivo.frigo@...> wrote:


Good evening, everyone,
I noticed that the S-meters on the Duo and the SW2 indicate absolutely different values. For example, the same signal on the DUO is at S9, the software SW-2 indicates 9+20 (even just beyond) and Studio1 about 8.
What's going on? Who is right? Have I done something wrong? 
Thank you.
 
IN3EFR - Ivo
-- 
Neil
http://g4dbn.uk


Re: Fancy S-meter #eladduo #eladsw2 #smeter

Chris Moore
 

Here's what Rob Sherwood said:

S meter linearity and dBm meter linearity is as close to perfect as one could ask for.  Each S unit from S1 to S9 is 6 dB.  The dBm scale is within 1 dB from -120 dBm to -30 dBm, and is often perfect.  There is an occasional error of up to 2 dB when decreasing the signal in 5 dB steps vs. increasing the level in 5 dB steps. The S meter / dBm readings are not significantly affected by the 12 dB attenuator.  These readings are corrected in software to give the true signal level, which should be commended

I always assumed he was talking about the meter in SW2, but not sure.


On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:51 PM Neil Coley <coleyneil1@...> wrote:
In my experience, I’d say the duo is the most accurate. I’d do away with the S meter on sw2. Its obviously just decoration. 
I think real S meters are for superhets or Japanese hybrid sdrs - 7300/7610

The Elad S meters will get there eventually but for now......shite




On 18 Mar 2020, at 22:00, Ivo Frigo <ivo.frigo@...> wrote:


Good evening, everyone,
I noticed that the S-meters on the Duo and the SW2 indicate absolutely different values. For example, the same signal on the DUO is at S9, the software SW-2 indicates 9+20 (even just beyond) and Studio1 about 8.
What's going on? Who is right? Have I done something wrong? 
Thank you.
 
IN3EFR - Ivo


Re: Fancy S-meter #eladduo #eladsw2 #smeter

Neil Coley <coleyneil1@...>
 

In my experience, I’d say the duo is the most accurate. I’d do away with the S meter on sw2. Its obviously just decoration. 
I think real S meters are for superhets or Japanese hybrid sdrs - 7300/7610

The Elad S meters will get there eventually but for now......shite




On 18 Mar 2020, at 22:00, Ivo Frigo <ivo.frigo@...> wrote:


Good evening, everyone,
I noticed that the S-meters on the Duo and the SW2 indicate absolutely different values. For example, the same signal on the DUO is at S9, the software SW-2 indicates 9+20 (even just beyond) and Studio1 about 8.
What's going on? Who is right? Have I done something wrong? 
Thank you.
 
IN3EFR - Ivo


Fancy S-meter #eladduo #eladsw2 #smeter

Ivo Frigo <ivo.frigo@...>
 

Good evening, everyone,
I noticed that the S-meters on the Duo and the SW2 indicate absolutely different values. For example, the same signal on the DUO is at S9, the software SW-2 indicates 9+20 (even just beyond) and Studio1 about 8.
What's going on? Who is right? Have I done something wrong? 
Thank you.
 
IN3EFR - Ivo


Re: Question about small dip on the center of the Elad screen

George Stein - NJ3H
 

Hello, Gerard, Tony, and Neil,

Thank you all for your replies.

I have checked  on the suggestions that you have made.  Everything seems as it should be based on your comments,  The issue did not go away.

However, I did discover that on the Setup/Advanced screen, the first item Device Configuration was set to the bottom choice, the one with 2 channels. When I changed it to any other configuration (like the one with 6144 in the choice), the problem went away.

So it appears the 2 channel option may be the culprit.

Curious what you might think about that with this finding.

Again thank all of you for your help.

Please stay safe and well.  Take care to avoid crowds.

Enjoy the rest of your day.;

Regards,
George, NJ3H
Redmond, Oregon USA
DMR ID:  3141315
AllStar Node:  49246
EchoLink Node NJ3H-L:  3135


On Wednesday, March 18, 2020, 6:57:39 AM PDT, Neil Smith G4DBN <neil@...> wrote:


Could this be something to do with ADC DC offset correction? Just guessing. Setting is on the Advanced tab of setup

Neil



Re: Question about small dip on the center of the Elad screen

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

Could this be something to do with ADC DC offset correction? Just guessing. Setting is on the Advanced tab of setup

Neil



A ELAD e a tutti

Bernard Malet
 

Buongiorno
Volevo dirti, prima di tutte le mie esigenze di hobby elettronico e
radiofonico, un grande saluto e molto coraggio a tutto il team ELAD Italia e
anche a quello degli Stati Uniti che ne hanno davvero bisogno per la salute e
il finanziamento, in
questo periodo inquinato da questo terribile virus e che
tutti i nostri amici italiani e quasi tutte le altre nazioni che attualmente
subiscono un rigoroso confino come noi da lunedì 18 marzo 2020 in Francia

A tutti EladSDR@groups.io DX molto buono e, soprattutto, grande cautela,
proteggiti bene

Cordialmente
Bernard

 

Bonjour

Je tenais à vous dire, avant tous mes besoins de hobby électronique et de radio, un très grand bonjour et beaucoup de courage à toute l’équipe ELAD Italie et aussi à celle des USA qui en ont réellement besoin de santé et de financement, dans cette période polluée par cet affreux virus et que tous nos amis Italiens et presque toutes les autres nations qui subissent actuellement un confinement rigoureux comme nous maintenant depuis lundi 18 mars 2020 en France

A tous du EladSDR@groups.io de très bon DX et surtout, grande prudence, protégez-vous bien

Bernard

 

Hello
I wanted to say to you, before all my electronic and radio hobby needs, a
very big hello and a lot of courage to the whole ELAD Italy team and also to
that of the USA who really need it for health and funding, in
this
period polluted by this awful virus and that all our Italian friends and almost
all the other nations which currently undergo a rigorous confinement like us
now since Monday March 18, 2020 in France

To all of EladSDR@groups.io very good DX and above all, great caution,
protect yourself well

Best regards

Bernard

 


Re: Question about small dip on the center of the Elad screen

Tony EI8JK
 

Now that you pointed out that the signal is negative, could it be caused by a notch filter being on ?
Just a thought.

Tony, EI8JK


On 18/03/2020 11:58, ondescourtes74@... wrote:

 The  interesting thing on your picture is that this signal, in the spectrum, is going down . A negative signal????
73's

 Gérard.



Re: How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

Clint Chron
 

Hi Patrick,

 

Some SDR radios have built-in front end bandpass filters on the receivers and some do not.  The S2 and Duos radios have no front-end filters.  The main purchase of the pre-selector is to reduce the signal level of interfering signals on adjacent bands.  Adjacent bands include ham bands, short wave bands, and the AM broadcast band.  The S2 receiver and the Duo transceiver have an ADC overload point of about –9 dbm.  The ADC overload point shows up a flashing red “ADC CLIP” on the SW-2 software.  On the front display of the Duo, the ADC overload also shows up as a flashing “PK” below the S meter dbm signal level.  When a SDR receiver reaches the ADC overload point, all received signals are greatly distorted and distortion products are created.  On the S2 and Duo, the actual signal distortion point is about -6 dbm.  Please note that the ADC Clip point of -9 dbm is for a single signal.  The ADC clip point decreases as additional strong signals are added to the mix.

 

If you have no strong adjacent band signals i.e. your ADC chip is not being overloaded, then a pre-selector is not going to improve performance.  A pre-selector adds about 1 to 3 db of insertion loss, so your receiver sensitivity degrades.

 

At my QTH, I have a number of very strong AM broadcast stations located about 12 miles away.  Some of these stations have signal levels of -30 dbm on my spectrum analyzer.  These strong signals turn on my ADC CLIP icon.  To get rid of the ADC clipping, I can do one of several things:

 

Enable the Duo’s attenuator.  This usually gets rid of the clipping but also reduces the receiver’s sensitivity.

Install an AM Band High Pass Filter in the receive line.  This filter greatly reduces any signals that are less than 1.8 Mhz in frequency.

Install an AM Band Band Reject Filter in the receive line.  This filter greatly reduces any signals in the AM broad band.

Install a pre-selector in the receive line.  The pre-selector filters greatly reduces the AM broadcast signals and any adjacent band signals.

 

The S2 and Duo radios can also be overloaded with inband signals.  Example:  I am operating at 7.250 Mhz and a strong CW signal is at 7.080 Mhz.  A fixed band pre-selector will not be of any help in reducing the level of the 7.080 Mhz CW signal.

 

The Elad SPF-08 and QSF-06 pre-selectors can be a big help in getting rid of the ADC CLIP overload, if the correct filters are installed in the pre-selector.  Here is a typical example of how the pre-selector can reduce ADC overload.

I have a neighbor ham that is operating at 1 KW on 80 meters.  His strong 80M signal is at -9 dbm into my Duo radio that is operating at 7.200 MHz.  The ADC CLIP icon is turning on.  I insert an Elad pre-selector in front of my Duo.  The pre-selector 40M filter drops the 80M signal 40 db.  So the 80M signal is now at about -49 dbm.  I no longer see any ADC overload.  My 7.200 Mhz signal comes through fine – and is reduced only 2 db in signal level.

 

For those that are interested, I can provide SW-2 screen snapshots of how an Elad pre-selector can greatly reduce signal levels in adjacent bands.  I can also provide sweeps of the Elad pre-selector filters.

 

73

Clint

W7KEC

 

 

 

 

 

From: EladSDR@groups.io [mailto:EladSDR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Patrick Bouldin KM5L
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 8:17 PM
To: EladSDR@groups.io
Subject: [EladSDR] How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

 

Who really notices a big positive change with the preselectors available at Elad? Which ones and why?


73,
Patrick KM5L


Re: Question about small dip on the center of the Elad screen

ondescourtes74@...
 

Hello George,

I have  been running a FDM 1 and now a FDM 2 for years and I never saw this blue line you are refering to.
As I am really not specialised in radio , I cant  answer to your question

 The  interesting thing on your picture is that this signal, in the spectrum, is going down . A negative signal????

As you, I will read the answers of the specialists of this good forum whith great pleasure.

Keep away from this virus and have a good day.

73's

 Gérard.


How do you like your pre-selector? #fdm-duo #pre-selector

Patrick Bouldin KM5L <patrick@...>
 

Who really notices a big positive change with the preselectors available at Elad? Which ones and why?


73,
Patrick KM5L


Re: Warranty Contact

Mark Stewart <spooter12@...>
 

Thanks for the info regarding the 198 microphone. I finally got a tracking number for a replacement microphone today. Took over two weeks, but it's coming. 


On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 2:06 PM Alain Reiner <alain@...> wrote:
Hello Mark,

The Elad microphones are bad quality (did you notice ? ;) ). Instead, use the Icom HM-198. Much better and the price (in France) is about 25 Euros on the Icom France web site. I did not find the price on Icomamerica web site.

To answer your question, your Elad contact  for the USA is Paul Jones : Paul Jones <support@...>.

Best Regards,
Alain F4HFS


Le 17/03/2020 à 05:18, Mark Stewart a écrit :
Bought my FDM-DUO last month. Shortly after. my mic is defective. I emailed USA support and was told a microphone would go out the next day, This was on the 4th. On the 10th, I emailed a second time. After no reply, I called and was told one would ship next day. It's been over two weeks and no mic. I'm not able to use it other then listening. My most recent email of the 15th is so far, unanswered. Is there a factory contact that might be able to help me?

mark~k8zbq


Re: Warranty Contact

Alain Reiner
 

Hello Mark,

The Elad microphones are bad quality (did you notice ? ;) ). Instead, use the Icom HM-198. Much better and the price (in France) is about 25 Euros on the Icom France web site. I did not find the price on Icomamerica web site.

To answer your question, your Elad contact  for the USA is Paul Jones : Paul Jones <support@...>.

Best Regards,
Alain F4HFS


Le 17/03/2020 à 05:18, Mark Stewart a écrit :

Bought my FDM-DUO last month. Shortly after. my mic is defective. I emailed USA support and was told a microphone would go out the next day, This was on the 4th. On the 10th, I emailed a second time. After no reply, I called and was told one would ship next day. It's been over two weeks and no mic. I'm not able to use it other then listening. My most recent email of the 15th is so far, unanswered. Is there a factory contact that might be able to help me?

mark~k8zbq


ELAD Remote update

Giovanni Franza
 

Thanks to Espen LA1RQ,
I've been able to fix a problem into both win32 and win64 installation.

The simptoms are lack of window decoration and lack on mouse pointer in the ELAD Remote window.

The problem is into setup.bat files and is the lack of installation of twm packeage.

The fix was to add -P twm at the end of setup.bat.
No other files or procedures of the installation has changed.

If you don't have already installed ELAD Remote you can follow the manual.

If you have already installed version 1.75 into win32 or win64 yu need to
1) download setup from:
    http://www.eladit.com/download/sdr/DUO-ART_EladRemote/1.75/win32/setup.bat for win32
    or from:
    http://www.eladit.com/download/sdr/DUO-ART_EladRemote/1.75/win64/setup.bat for win64
2) Relaunch setup.bat as explained into the maual.
This is enough to install the missing package and fix the problem.

Have fun,

Giovanni - HB9IK


Question about small dip on the center of the Elad screen

George Stein - NJ3H
 

Greetings,

Kindly look at the attached picture.

Note in the center of the waterfall, there is a blue line that corresponds with a dip on the spectrum display.  This occurs regardless of the frequency selected.  Does anyone have any idea what is happening here and why always in the exact center?

Regards,
George, NJ3H
Redmond, Oregon USA


Re: Frequency Dials

George Stein - NJ3H
 

Hello Neil,

Thanks for your reply.  I tried what you suggested.  The Lo Freq can me changed with the mouse wheel with no problem.  Then I went to the Tune Freq and things worked ok.  Then I changed the frequency and the Tune freq stopped working except for about 130 khz.  Just makes no sense to me.

I will keep playing with it.

Have a good day.

Regards,
George, NJ3H


Re: Frequency Dials

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

The frequency in the bottom part of the advance tuning box remains on the original frequency when it was opened.  That is probably a feature, not a bug.

Neil

On 16/03/2020 21:05, Neil Smith G4DBN wrote:

Hi George, mine seems to behave as you would expect, I can click on the up or down arrow for each digit and change the LO frequency to anything that is a valid frequency. However, I think I saw the same behaviour as you did, almost like I had slipped out of Lock to CF mode.  I can't reproduce it now.  Are you able to move +-70kHz or so?  Is the Lock to CF button white? Does the bahaviour change when you select LO frequency?  Does it then work with Tune frequency when you go back to that?

I noticed two different bugs that need a bit of investigation.  If I click in the waterfall, then on one of the up arrows in the Advanced Tuning window, the selected digit does not go red.  If I select another digit, that one goes red.  Almost like the focus isn't being captured. 

Second bug related to using a frequency like 10,368,234.567 kHz with a transverter offset of 10224000000 Hz. If I try to use the Advanced Tuning window, it displays 168,234,567 and if I change any digit, it throws a "too big for an INT32" error.  I need to try it at a frequency around 2^31 Hz and see if the overflow happens there or at 2^32 Hz.

Neil G4DBN


On 16/03/2020 19:44, George Stein - NJ3H via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello Gerard,

Nice to hear from you.

I can use the fille in the blank at the bottom of the pop-up.  What I don't understand is why the top part of the popup won't let me enter frequency numbers by just using the mouse to enter them.  Some of the number windows do not change.  I would think one should be able to enter the frequency using the top portion of the popup.

Have a great evening there in France.  All the best and stay well.

Regards,
George


Regards,
George, NJ3H
Redmond, Oregon USA
DMR ID:  3141315
AllStar Node:  49246
EchoLink Node NJ3H-L:  3135
IRLP Node:  3659


On Monday, March 16, 2020, 11:57:29 AM PDT, ondescourtes74@... <ondescourtes74@...> wrote:


Hello George,

As I don't know the difference between "tune frequency" and "local oscillator frequency," I always use "tune frequency".

Then I enter the frequency in the lower case by tiping every number .
In your example : 6, 9,9,0,0,0,0,0
Ten I press enter or Ok.

 For me, it works fine.

73's
Gérard in Annecy ( France)



-- 
Neil
http://g4dbn.uk
-- 
Neil
http://g4dbn.uk


Re: Frequency Dials

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

Hi George, mine seems to behave as you would expect, I can click on the up or down arrow for each digit and change the LO frequency to anything that is a valid frequency. However, I think I saw the same behaviour as you did, almost like I had slipped out of Lock to CF mode.  I can't reproduce it now.  Are you able to move +-70kHz or so?  Is the Lock to CF button white? Does the bahaviour change when you select LO frequency?  Does it then work with Tune frequency when you go back to that?

I noticed two different bugs that need a bit of investigation.  If I click in the waterfall, then on one of the up arrows in the Advanced Tuning window, the selected digit does not go red.  If I select another digit, that one goes red.  Almost like the focus isn't being captured. 

Second bug related to using a frequency like 10,368,234.567 kHz with a transverter offset of 10224000000 Hz. If I try to use the Advanced Tuning window, it displays 168,234,567 and if I change any digit, it throws a "too big for an INT32" error.  I need to try it at a frequency around 2^31 Hz and see if the overflow happens there or at 2^32 Hz.

Neil G4DBN


On 16/03/2020 19:44, George Stein - NJ3H via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello Gerard,

Nice to hear from you.

I can use the fille in the blank at the bottom of the pop-up.  What I don't understand is why the top part of the popup won't let me enter frequency numbers by just using the mouse to enter them.  Some of the number windows do not change.  I would think one should be able to enter the frequency using the top portion of the popup.

Have a great evening there in France.  All the best and stay well.

Regards,
George


Regards,
George, NJ3H
Redmond, Oregon USA
DMR ID:  3141315
AllStar Node:  49246
EchoLink Node NJ3H-L:  3135
IRLP Node:  3659


On Monday, March 16, 2020, 11:57:29 AM PDT, ondescourtes74@... <ondescourtes74@...> wrote:


Hello George,

As I don't know the difference between "tune frequency" and "local oscillator frequency," I always use "tune frequency".

Then I enter the frequency in the lower case by tiping every number .
In your example : 6, 9,9,0,0,0,0,0
Ten I press enter or Ok.

 For me, it works fine.

73's
Gérard in Annecy ( France)



-- 
Neil
http://g4dbn.uk


Re: Frequency Dials

George Stein - NJ3H
 

Hello Gerard,

Nice to hear from you.

I can use the fille in the blank at the bottom of the pop-up.  What I don't understand is why the top part of the popup won't let me enter frequency numbers by just using the mouse to enter them.  Some of the number windows do not change.  I would think one should be able to enter the frequency using the top portion of the popup.

Have a great evening there in France.  All the best and stay well.

Regards,
George


Regards,
George, NJ3H
Redmond, Oregon USA
DMR ID:  3141315
AllStar Node:  49246
EchoLink Node NJ3H-L:  3135
IRLP Node:  3659


On Monday, March 16, 2020, 11:57:29 AM PDT, ondescourtes74@... <ondescourtes74@...> wrote:


Hello George,

As I don't know the difference between "tune frequency" and "local oscillator frequency," I always use "tune frequency".

Then I enter the frequency in the lower case by tiping every number .
In your example : 6, 9,9,0,0,0,0,0
Ten I press enter or Ok.

 For me, it works fine.

73's
Gérard in Annecy ( France)



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