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A question about road bed.

Tom Grabenstein
 

Hello,

I wanted to ask you all a somewhat technical question.

I am in the early stages of constructing a modest On30 layout of portions of the ET&WNC RR. It will be set in the early 1920s.

In looking at prototype pictures, I cannot tell if the railroad was placed on raised roadbed or not? In many of the pictures it appears that the track is laid in minimal to no roadbed. It appears that the trackwork is quite flat and overgrown with weeds and grasses.

What would be more appropriate, to lay the track directly to a flat surface or to elevate the track on cork roadbed about 1/4” ??

I really appreciate your thoughts on this and look forward to some learned information.

Doc Tom
William Uffelman
 

Elevate on HO cork or similar. That is only one scale foot so there is room for scenery next to the tie ends.

Bill Uffelman

On Friday, March 29, 2019, 11:47:25 AM PDT, Tom Grabenstein <tomgmd@...> wrote:


Hello,

I wanted to ask you all a somewhat technical question.

I am in the early stages of constructing a modest On30 layout of portions of the ET&WNC RR. It will be set in the early 1920s.

In looking at prototype pictures, I cannot tell if the railroad was placed on raised roadbed or not? In many of the pictures it appears that the track is laid in minimal to no roadbed. It appears that the trackwork is quite flat and overgrown with weeds and grasses.

What would be more appropriate, to lay the track directly to a flat surface or to elevate the track on cork roadbed about 1/4” ??

I really appreciate your thoughts on this and look forward to some learned information.

Doc Tom
Steve Austin <sea110947@...>
 

Doc Tom, I'm not sure of the prototype ET's ballasting practices, but I prefer no raised roadbed. See photo.

Steve Austin
Elkhorn Iron and Timber Co 

-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Grabenstein <tomgmd@...>
Date: 3/29/19 2:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: ETWNC@groups.io
Subject: [ETWNC] A question about road bed.

Hello,

I wanted to ask you all a somewhat technical question.

I am in the early stages of constructing a modest On30 layout of portions of the ET&WNC RR. It will be set in the early 1920s.

In looking at prototype pictures, I cannot tell if the railroad was placed on raised roadbed or not? In many of the pictures it appears that the track is laid in minimal to no roadbed. It appears that the trackwork is quite flat and overgrown with weeds and grasses.

What would be more appropriate, to lay the track directly to a flat surface or to elevate the track on cork roadbed about 1/4” ??

I really appreciate your thoughts on this and look forward to some learned information.

Doc Tom
John Braly
 

I have vivid memories as a child of 4 or 5  walking up the tracks in the Coal Chute in probably 1954.  The ties were very low in the fill and not much elevation.  My sand box was made from cross ties my father took across the road after the line was closed.  

On Friday, March 29, 2019, 03:10:44 PM EDT, Steve Austin <sea110947@...> wrote:


Doc Tom, I'm not sure of the prototype ET's ballasting practices, but I prefer no raised roadbed. See photo.

Steve Austin
Elkhorn Iron and Timber Co 

-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Grabenstein <tomgmd@...>
Date: 3/29/19 2:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: ETWNC@groups.io
Subject: [ETWNC] A question about road bed.

Hello,

I wanted to ask you all a somewhat technical question.

I am in the early stages of constructing a modest On30 layout of portions of the ET&WNC RR. It will be set in the early 1920s.

In looking at prototype pictures, I cannot tell if the railroad was placed on raised roadbed or not? In many of the pictures it appears that the track is laid in minimal to no roadbed. It appears that the trackwork is quite flat and overgrown with weeds and grasses.

What would be more appropriate, to lay the track directly to a flat surface or to elevate the track on cork roadbed about 1/4” ??

I really appreciate your thoughts on this and look forward to some learned information.

Doc Tom
Thunder
 

Hi Tom. Most narrow gauge lines ran on real skimpy budgets. I am not sure if the Tweetsie had heavy ballast back in the 20’s, but I highly doubt it.  

Most of the pics I have seen it looks like the track was laid in the dirt with cinders for ballast. 

Good luck! If I find anything , I shall forward it.

Todd 


On Mar 29, 2019, at 5:21 PM, John Braly <jbraly1415@...> wrote:

I have vivid memories as a child of 4 or 5  walking up the tracks in the Coal Chute in probably 1954.  The ties were very low in the fill and not much elevation.  My sand box was made from cross ties my father took across the road after the line was closed.  

On Friday, March 29, 2019, 03:10:44 PM EDT, Steve Austin <sea110947@...> wrote:


Doc Tom, I'm not sure of the prototype ET's ballasting practices, but I prefer no raised roadbed. See photo.

Steve Austin
Elkhorn Iron and Timber Co 

-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Grabenstein <tomgmd@...>
Date: 3/29/19 2:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [ETWNC] A question about road bed.

Hello,

I wanted to ask you all a somewhat technical question.

I am in the early stages of constructing a modest On30 layout of portions of the ET&WNC RR. It will be set in the early 1920s.

In looking at prototype pictures, I cannot tell if the railroad was placed on raised roadbed or not? In many of the pictures it appears that the track is laid in minimal to no roadbed. It appears that the trackwork is quite flat and overgrown with weeds and grasses.

What would be more appropriate, to lay the track directly to a flat surface or to elevate the track on cork roadbed about 1/4” ??

I really appreciate your thoughts on this and look forward to some learned information.

Doc Tom
Tom Grabenstein
 

Thank you all so much for the valuable information and ideas regarding the roadbed of this wonderful 
little rail road. I agree that most of the pictures I have seen show the tracks down in the dirt.

Mr Bill Miller provided me with some information that waste rock from the mines at Cranberry was used when the line into Boone was first built……the early 1920’s the era I am hoping to model. 

I also enjoyed John’s personal recollections of walking up the tracks “very low in fill.” 

So I will probably do both with raised road bed on the new (for 1923) sections I model and down in the weeds and dirt  for the  older historical sections before Cranberry.

Hope this will keep it interesting.

Doc Tom
Frank Sergent
 

Tom,
 
 
Here’s a link to some really good pics of the ET with roadbed health clearly visible. Be aware that two of the pics are East Broad Top instead of ET (The one with the #15 engine and the one with the railroad crossing sign). Based on these pictures, it looks to me like the ends of the ties are typically visible on the mainline and the roadbed is elevated (at least on the mainline). I’m certain there are examples otherwise, but drainage is important for any road.
 
Frank
 
 
 
 
Tom Grabenstein
 

Frank. Those are some great pictures and I appreciate your input on this subject.

Doc Tom


On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:29 PM, Frank Sergent <fsergent@...> wrote:

Tom,
 
 
Here’s a link to some really good pics of the ET with roadbed health clearly visible. Be aware that two of the pics are East Broad Top instead of ET (The one with the #15 engine and the one with the railroad crossing sign). Based on these pictures, it looks to me like the ends of the ties are typically visible on the mainline and the roadbed is elevated (at least on the mainline). I’m certain there are examples otherwise, but drainage is important for any road.
 
Frank
 
 
 
 
johnny graybeal
 

I have looked at all the ICC data on the ET&WNC/Linville River. The ET&WNC in the teens and twenties had a very good roadbed. None of the regional railroads at that time had the high ballast that we see today. The mine at Cranberry was cranking out a lot of ore, and tons and tons of tailings. The railroad used these tailings to have a very good roadbed. The ICC inspector in 1916 said the roadbed was comparable to any SG RR in the region. 
Most of the photos you see show the 30s and the 40s. This was after the Depression reduced maintenance crews to a minimum, and weeds were allowed to encroach. I agree with what others say. Use good ballast between the ties but not nearly as much at the ends. Remember however, that Iron ore tailings were black so the ballast needs to be fine, and dark in color to be prototypical. If you have any questions, contact me directly. I am trying to finish the next issue of the magazine and wont be checking email that often.
Johnny Graybeal
Tom Grabenstein
 

Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down in the weeds look.”

The description of the ballast used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.

I will proceed to elevate the On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from the Cranberry mines. 

Thank you to everyone who responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated. I will post pictures as this project moves along.

Doc Tom

My contribution to the Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
William Uffelman
 

Check Arizona Rock and Minerals they should have a dark gray almost black color. As to size I used an HO ballast to get a fine look of gravel on my old On3 line. Used N scale black as a cinder ballast.

Bill Uffelman


On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM, Tom Grabenstein
<tomgmd@...> wrote:
Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down in the weeds look.”

The description of the ballast used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.

I will proceed to elevate the On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from the Cranberry mines. 

Thank you to everyone who responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated. I will post pictures as this project moves along.

Doc Tom

My contribution to the Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
Chris Ford
 

Going out on the old ET&WNC right-of-way now you'll find almost all mine tailings...mostly black with some very dark gray...about 1.5 inches to 2.5 inches in size.

Mine tailings were VERY plentiful...they even used the spoils as the aggregate in their concrete abutments and piers. Lots of aggregate with a little mortar....much of it still there over a hundred years later.



Chris
 
------------------------
Chris Ford
President - ET&WNC Railroad Historical Society
www.etwncrrhs.org
chris@...
901-497-0809
------------------------
www.cfordart.com

On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 22:04:05 +0000 (UTC), "William Uffelman via Groups.Io" wrote:
 
Check Arizona Rock and Minerals they should have a dark gray almost black color. As to size I used an HO ballast to get a fine look of gravel on my old On3 line. Used N scale black as a cinder ballast.
 
Bill Uffelman
 
 
 
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM, Tom Grabenstein
<tomgmd@...> wrote:
Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down in the weeds look.”
 
The description of the ballast used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.
 
I will proceed to elevate the On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from the Cranberry mines. 
 
Thank you to everyone who responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated. I will post pictures as this project moves along.
 
Doc Tom
 
My contribution to the Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
William Uffelman
 

So .030" to .050" in O scale.Take some calipers along.

Bill Uffelman


On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 3:42 PM, Chris Ford
<chris@...> wrote:
Going out on the old ET&WNC right-of-way now you'll find almost all mine tailings...mostly black with some very dark gray...about 1.5 inches to 2.5 inches in size.

Mine tailings were VERY plentiful...they even used the spoils as the aggregate in their concrete abutments and piers. Lots of aggregate with a little mortar....much of it still there over a hundred years later.



Chris
 
------------------------
Chris Ford
President - ET&WNC Railroad Historical Society
www.etwncrrhs.org
chris@...
901-497-0809
------------------------
www.cfordart.com

On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 22:04:05 +0000 (UTC), "William Uffelman via Groups.Io" wrote:
 
Check Arizona Rock and Minerals they should have a dark gray almost black color. As to size I used an HO ballast to get a fine look of gravel on my old On3 line. Used N scale black as a cinder ballast.
 
Bill Uffelman
 
 
 
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM, Tom Grabenstein
<tomgmd@...> wrote:
Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down in the weeds look.”
 
The description of the ballast used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.
 
I will proceed to elevate the On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from the Cranberry mines. 
 
Thank you to everyone who responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated. I will post pictures as this project moves along.
 
Doc Tom
 
My contribution to the Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
Mike West
 

Go to PETCO and look for black aquarium gravel. Mix it with gray and you'll get the right colour.w
--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 3/30/19, William Uffelman via Groups.Io <ufffam=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Subject: Re: [ETWNC] A question about road bed.
To: "ETWNC@groups.io" <ETWNC@groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 30, 2019, 6:47 PM

So .030" to
.050" in O scale.Take some calipers along.
Bill
Uffelman





On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 3:42 PM, Chris
Ford<chris@cfordart.com> wrote:

Going
out on the old ET&WNC right-of-way now you'll find
almost all mine tailings...mostly black with some very dark
gray...about 1.5 inches to 2.5 inches in size.



Mine tailings were VERY plentiful...they even used the
spoils as the aggregate in their concrete abutments and
piers. Lots of aggregate with a little mortar....much of it
still there over a hundred years later.







Chris

 



------------------------

Chris Ford

President - ET&WNC Railroad Historical Society

www.etwncrrhs.org

chris@cfordart.com

901-497-0809

------------------------

www.cfordart.com






On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 22:04:05 +0000 (UTC),
"William Uffelman via Groups.Io" wrote:

 
Check Arizona Rock and Minerals they should have
a dark gray almost black color. As to size I used an HO
ballast to get a fine look of gravel on my old On3 line.
Used N scale black as a cinder ballast.
 

Bill
Uffelman

 
 
 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM, Tom Grabenstein

<tomgmd@gmail.com> wrote:




Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out
contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very
good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down
in the weeds look.”
 

The description of the ballast
used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.

 

I will proceed to elevate the
On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be
researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from
the Cranberry mines. 

 

Thank you to everyone who
responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated.
I will post pictures as this project moves along.

 

Doc Tom

 



My contribution to the
Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
Tom Grabenstein
 

Thanks Bill and Mike. Saving this good info. in an electronic folder for the new layout.
Tom

On Mar 30, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Mike West <west9628@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Go to PETCO and look for black aquarium gravel. Mix it with gray and you'll get the right colour.w
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 3/30/19, William Uffelman via Groups.Io <ufffam=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Subject: Re: [ETWNC] A question about road bed.
To: "ETWNC@groups.io" <ETWNC@groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 30, 2019, 6:47 PM

So .030" to
.050" in O scale.Take some calipers along.
Bill
Uffelman





On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 3:42 PM, Chris
Ford<chris@cfordart.com> wrote:

Going
out on the old ET&WNC right-of-way now you'll find
almost all mine tailings...mostly black with some very dark
gray...about 1.5 inches to 2.5 inches in size.



Mine tailings were VERY plentiful...they even used the
spoils as the aggregate in their concrete abutments and
piers. Lots of aggregate with a little mortar....much of it
still there over a hundred years later.







Chris





------------------------

Chris Ford

President - ET&WNC Railroad Historical Society

www.etwncrrhs.org

chris@cfordart.com

901-497-0809

------------------------

www.cfordart.com






On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 22:04:05 +0000 (UTC),
"William Uffelman via Groups.Io" wrote:


Check Arizona Rock and Minerals they should have
a dark gray almost black color. As to size I used an HO
ballast to get a fine look of gravel on my old On3 line.
Used N scale black as a cinder ballast.


Bill
Uffelman







On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM, Tom Grabenstein

<tomgmd@gmail.com> wrote:




Thank you Johnny for this very well thought out
contribution to this discussion about roadbed. Also a very
good explanation why the pictures we have show the “down
in the weeds look.”


The description of the ballast
used is also very helpful as I select ballast color.



I will proceed to elevate the
On30 track somewhat using Cork roadbed. I will also be
researching dark ballast colors to match the tailings from
the Cranberry mines.



Thank you to everyone who
responded to my request for help. It is greatly appreciated.
I will post pictures as this project moves along.



Doc Tom





My contribution to the
Clarksville Model Rail Road club.
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