Topics

Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


Lee Bishop
 

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


johnny graybeal
 

John Waite did an article on the 15, a good 20 years ago now, putting forward the thought that the 15 was a Jim Crow combine.
There is evidence for and against, mostly due to how the car was used over the years.
When bought, the combine was part of the all enclosed vestibule passenger train. It was meant to be hooked in with coaches 16 and 17. Coach 16 had a partition almost half way through the car. Looking at interior photos of the 16, there is the word white above the door to the partition. Coach 17 had no partition.
In the late teens there was a substantial black population in cranberry, and some in Boone. It can be argued that the passenger section of the combine and the front section of coach 16 were set aside as Jim Crow sections. Separate but equal was the law of the land at the time, and the ET had to follow the law, at least on paper.
Consider though that the second set of enclosed vestibule passenger cars, delivered in 1921, had a baggage and mail car instead of a triple combine. Partitions in the coaches though.
With three of the four coaches having partitions for segregation, it can be argued that the combine was not designed to be the Jim Crow car.
Of course as time went on and the combine became the only passenger car on the train, it has been said that blacks rode in the baggage section on a cushion installed for the purpose. Whether the segregation of the races was enforced in the deep depression years or not is a Ken question.
A part of me has always bristled over calling the combine a Jim Crow combine. It was much more than a separate but equal accommodation. If it had been just for that, the other coaches would not have had partitions, especially the later LR coaches.
Never a simple answer.
Johnny Graybeal

--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


johnny graybeal
 

The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things. Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there was no division between them in the car itself.
Johnny

--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


Chris Ford
 

In regards to the story Johnny alluded to earlier....here's a link to
the story John Waite wrote way back in the Summer 1990 Stemwinder. The
link is a PDF of the center spread of that magazine, including drawings
of the car. May have to copy and paste the link into your browser....

www.cfordart.com/3-1Stemwinder1990combinestory.pdf

Chris Ford

On Thu, 09 May 2013 17:21:01 -0000, johnny <johnnyg@boone.net> wrote:

 
The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things.
Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was
not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the
posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there
was no division between them in the car itself.
Johnny
--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical
suggestions to that point:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


--
Chris Ford
chris@cfordart.com
------------------------
www.cfordart.com


David Pressley
 

This is kind of an OCD linguisticss debate now -
 
I would  not consider a railroad car itself to be a 'Jim Crow' car unless there was a partition creating two separate (but equal) passenger seating areas within the same car. This was NOT the case with Tweetsie #15.
 
As Johnny suggests, the passenger section of #15 was perhaps used to seat black passengers along with an adjoining partitioned section in coach #16 on the pre-depression passenger trains. By the end of regular passenger train service (the war era trains notwithstanding), what white passengers there were rode in the passenger compartment of #15.
 
So...... I'd suggest that at various times #15 carried white passengers and at various times #15 carried black passengers. The car was intended to carry passengers in one passenger compartment, mail, and baggage. Trying to describe #15 primarily as a 'Jim Crow' is an example of revisionist history, quite possible by someone with some sort of slanted agenda.
 
David

.


________________________________
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:21 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


 


The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things. Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there was no division between them in the car itself.
Johnny
--- In mailto:Tweetsie%40yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


David Pressley
 

As an addendum -
 
Please - Do not misunderstand me to suggest that John Waite was promoting any revisionist agenda other than preserving and sharing the history of the ET&WNC.
 
Absolutely not my intent.
 
Thanks,
David

...

________________________________
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:21 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


 


The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things. Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there was no division between them in the car itself.
Johnny
--- In mailto:Tweetsie%40yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


johnny graybeal
 

John and I talked on the phone regularly for many years. I can thus suggest that his thinking was that the combine was originally designed with the thought in mind of having people of color ride in it instead of the rest of the train. In the years since that article was written, we have learned that the other cars had partitions, etc etc. I have seen the original photos taken at the factory. Until you figure out the code on the bottom of the photo, you dont necessarily know that this picture was of the 15, the 16, or the 17. I now know that the partition photo is of the 16, not the 15.
In terms of the definition put forward of Jim Crow being a divided section in a single car, then combine 15 does not fit. While I can clearly see putting the separate but equal people up front, in the 15 and the front of 16, with the "genteel" people at the other end in the Azalea as logical, I have no letters or correspondence to prove it.
Does anyone know how the Southern did it in the Teens???
Johnny

--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, David Pressley <notelvis2@...> wrote:

As an addendum -
 
Please - Do not misunderstand me to suggest that John Waite was promoting any revisionist agenda other than preserving and sharing the history of the ET&WNC.
 
Absolutely not my intent.
 
Thanks,
David


Will Vanderburg <Army30th@...>
 

I think what he meant was that the passenger area in that car was used to seat black passengers, not that the car was designed specifically as a Jim Crow car. A true Jim Crow car has separate seating and restroom facilities in the same car with white passengers with a partition between the two. There are two restrooms in that car, one in the passenger section and one in the other end. If they were specifically using it for segregation, then the two restrooms would make sense plus there is a door between the passenger section and the other two sections. It basically became Jim Crow compliant, if you will, without the need to re-configure the other passenger cars to fit the law. The law provided that both races would have their own restroom facilities, since by railroad rules, white employees were not to be in segregated sections longer than necessary to perform their jobs.

Will V.

William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: chris@cfordart.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 12:44:58 -0500
Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























In regards to the story Johnny alluded to earlier....here's a link to

the story John Waite wrote way back in the Summer 1990 Stemwinder. The

link is a PDF of the center spread of that magazine, including drawings

of the car. May have to copy and paste the link into your browser....



www.cfordart.com/3-1Stemwinder1990combinestory.pdf



Chris Ford

On Thu, 09 May 2013 17:21:01 -0000, johnny <johnnyg@boone.net> wrote:





The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things.

Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was

not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the

posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there

was no division between them in the car itself.

Johnny

--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical
suggestions to that point:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?


--

Chris Ford

chris@cfordart.com

------------------------

www.cfordart.com


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Will Vanderburg <Army30th@...>
 

There's a Jim Crow passenger car (Southern) at the NCTM. It has a large seating area with large restrooms just to each side of it, and a smaller seating section with to single toilets at the one end facing each other across the aisle. There is a sliding partition/curtain that separates the two sections in the aisle.

Will V


William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: johnnyg@boone.net
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 18:29:45 +0000
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























John and I talked on the phone regularly for many years. I can thus suggest that his thinking was that the combine was originally designed with the thought in mind of having people of color ride in it instead of the rest of the train. In the years since that article was written, we have learned that the other cars had partitions, etc etc. I have seen the original photos taken at the factory. Until you figure out the code on the bottom of the photo, you dont necessarily know that this picture was of the 15, the 16, or the 17. I now know that the partition photo is of the 16, not the 15.

In terms of the definition put forward of Jim Crow being a divided section in a single car, then combine 15 does not fit. While I can clearly see putting the separate but equal people up front, in the 15 and the front of 16, with the "genteel" people at the other end in the Azalea as logical, I have no letters or correspondence to prove it.

Does anyone know how the Southern did it in the Teens???

Johnny



--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, David Pressley <notelvis2@...> wrote:

As an addendum -
Please - Do not misunderstand me to suggest that John Waite was promoting any revisionist agenda other than preserving and sharing the history of the ET&WNC.
Absolutely not my intent.
Thanks,
David

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


johnny graybeal
 

Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny


Mike West
 

That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car?  There was alegedly a piano player at one time.  Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw


From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?

 
Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Ken Riddle
 

The passenger section of the 15 was used as a smoker. The little railroad was colorblind from all that I know. The first man to open the throttle on number 12 was black-Andy Kern.

These are the mountains of Tennessee, not the Deep South or big city south.

Ken
On May 9, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Franklin West <west9628@bellsouth.net> wrote:

That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car? There was alegedly a piano player at one time. Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw

From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Ken Riddle
 

We handled a couple if Central of Georgia Jim Crow cars back in the day. They had a wall in the middle with no door but the biggest difference was the bathrooms. One big and nice and one little. I think they had a water cooler in each end.

Ken

On May 9, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Will Vanderburg <Army30th@hotmail.com> wrote:

There's a Jim Crow passenger car (Southern) at the NCTM. It has a large seating area with large restrooms just to each side of it, and a smaller seating section with to single toilets at the one end facing each other across the aisle. There is a sliding partition/curtain that separates the two sections in the aisle.

Will V


William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: johnnyg@boone.net
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 18:29:45 +0000
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























John and I talked on the phone regularly for many years. I can thus suggest that his thinking was that the combine was originally designed with the thought in mind of having people of color ride in it instead of the rest of the train. In the years since that article was written, we have learned that the other cars had partitions, etc etc. I have seen the original photos taken at the factory. Until you figure out the code on the bottom of the photo, you dont necessarily know that this picture was of the 15, the 16, or the 17. I now know that the partition photo is of the 16, not the 15.

In terms of the definition put forward of Jim Crow being a divided section in a single car, then combine 15 does not fit. While I can clearly see putting the separate but equal people up front, in the 15 and the front of 16, with the "genteel" people at the other end in the Azalea as logical, I have no letters or correspondence to prove it.

Does anyone know how the Southern did it in the Teens???

Johnny



--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, David Pressley <notelvis2@...> wrote:

As an addendum -
Â
Please - Do not misunderstand me to suggest that John Waite was promoting any revisionist agenda other than preserving and sharing the history of the ET&WNC.
Â
Absolutely not my intent.
Â
Thanks,
David

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Ken Riddle
 

The train carried anybody that was going, but preachers had to pay up front!

Ken

On May 9, 2013, at 1:52 PM, David Pressley <notelvis2@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is kind of an OCD linguisticss debate now -

I would not consider a railroad car itself to be a 'Jim Crow' car unless there was a partition creating two separate (but equal) passenger seating areas within the same car. This was NOT the case with Tweetsie #15.

As Johnny suggests, the passenger section of #15 was perhaps used to seat black passengers along with an adjoining partitioned section in coach #16 on the pre-depression passenger trains. By the end of regular passenger train service (the war era trains notwithstanding), what white passengers there were rode in the passenger compartment of #15.

So...... I'd suggest that at various times #15 carried white passengers and at various times #15 carried black passengers. The car was intended to carry passengers in one passenger compartment, mail, and baggage. Trying to describe #15 primarily as a 'Jim Crow' is an example of revisionist history, quite possible by someone with some sort of slanted agenda.

David

.

________________________________
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:21 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?





The photos referred to in the posting refer to two different things. Combine 15 was in three parts, baggage, passenger and mail. There was not a partition in the 15 to divide the races. I cant reply to the posting, but while the 15 may have been used as a Jim Crow car, there was no division between them in the car itself.
Johnny
--- In mailto:Tweetsie%40yahoogroups.com, "Lee Bishop" <p51@...> wrote:

I'd never even thought of it, but someone made some very logical suggestions to that point: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=195735#p195735
Opinions, anyone?




Will Vanderburg <Army30th@...>
 

The Jim Crow laws, while primarily in the south, were not confined to the south. Make no mistake about it...I'm not going to get into a racial/segregationist discussion on a RR forum, but no less than 36 states had "Jim Crow" laws on the books from 1876 to 1965.

I don't doubt that Andy Kern did what you said....but, it's not typical.



William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: keriddle@yatesind.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























The passenger section of the 15 was used as a smoker. The little railroad was colorblind from all that I know. The first man to open the throttle on number 12 was black-Andy Kern.



These are the mountains of Tennessee, not the Deep South or big city south.



Ken
On May 9, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Franklin West <west9628@bellsouth.net> wrote:



That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car? There was alegedly a piano player at one time. Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?
Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Will Vanderburg <Army30th@...>
 

The Southern car I refer to: The white restrooms are more like lounges. One on the end and one in the middle (the middle one acts as the separator of the two passenger seating areas.) A couple of seats, a couple of sinks and a lavatory. The rooms are almost big enough to put a bed in. The colored restrooms are located at one end of the car, on opposite sides of the aisle and are about as big as a telephone booth inside. Separate But Equal was being followed (in the Railroad's and other people's eyes) because the sitting area was similar and there were Men's and Women's restrooms. Even my former office there (Barber Station) was segregated.

I do not know if the railroad ordered the car that way OR if it was retrofitted that way when the car was refurbished inside. I don't imagine car foundry's advertising "Jim Crow" cars for sale.

William Vanderburg

To: tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: Army30th@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 17:10:06 -0400
Subject: RE: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?

The Jim Crow laws, while primarily in the south, were not confined to the south. Make no mistake about it...I'm not going to get into a racial/segregationist discussion on a RR forum, but no less than 36 states had "Jim Crow" laws on the books from 1876 to 1965.

I don't doubt that Andy Kern did what you said....but, it's not typical.



William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: keriddle@yatesind.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























The passenger section of the 15 was used as a smoker. The little railroad was colorblind from all that I know. The first man to open the throttle on number 12 was black-Andy Kern.



These are the mountains of Tennessee, not the Deep South or big city south.



Ken



Sent from my iPhone



On May 9, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Franklin West <west9628@bellsouth.net> wrote:



That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car? There was alegedly a piano player at one time. Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?
Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny

























------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Kyle Shannon
 

Most of the Southern cars were refitted most from the same classes of heavyweights, they existed in about any configuration you can imagine. I know at least the early streamlined coaches were built  for segregated use. The CG JC cars we have at TVRM (906, 907), one of which retains its partition, had same size restrooms on both ends. http://southernmodeler.info/SRdiagrams.htm One can see all various the floor plans in the diagram books on the bottom of the page of this link.


________________________________
From: Will Vanderburg <Army30th@hotmail.com>
To: "Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com" <tweetsie@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?



 
The Southern car I refer to: The white restrooms are more like lounges. One on the end and one in the middle (the middle one acts as the separator of the two passenger seating areas.) A couple of seats, a couple of sinks and a lavatory. The rooms are almost big enough to put a bed in. The colored restrooms are located at one end of the car, on opposite sides of the aisle and are about as big as a telephone booth inside. Separate But Equal was being followed (in the Railroad's and other people's eyes) because the sitting area was similar and there were Men's and Women's restrooms. Even my former office there (Barber Station) was segregated.

I do not know if the railroad ordered the car that way OR if it was retrofitted that way when the car was refurbished inside. I don't imagine car foundry's advertising "Jim Crow" cars for sale.

William Vanderburg

To: tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: Army30th@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 17:10:06 -0400
Subject: RE: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?

The Jim Crow laws, while primarily in the south, were not confined to the south. Make no mistake about it...I'm not going to get into a racial/segregationist discussion on a RR forum, but no less than 36 states had "Jim Crow" laws on the books from 1876 to 1965.

I don't doubt that Andy Kern did what you said....but, it's not typical.



William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: keriddle@yatesind.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























The passenger section of the 15 was used as a smoker. The little railroad was colorblind from all that I know. The first man to open the throttle on number 12 was black-Andy Kern.



These are the mountains of Tennessee, not the Deep South or big city south.



Ken



Sent from my iPhone



On May 9, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Franklin West <west9628@bellsouth.net> wrote:



That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car? There was alegedly a piano player at one time. Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw
From: johnny <johnnyg@boone.net>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?
Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


labee55
 

I would like to post the following from Gil Williams. He is the Project Mgr. for the Combine 15 Restoration @ the NCTM.
Thanks,
Lindsay Abee

Lindsay,

I'm not a member of the yahoo group. But here is my writeup in the ET&WNC combine 15 Restoration Report about the Baggage Compartment. I would appreciate it if you would pass it on. As you can see, I'm pretty sure that Combine 15 was used as a Jim Crow Car during World War II.

a) Baggage Compartment Stove

A large stove from Lenoir Car Works, Lenoir City Tennessee was laying in the baggage compartment as it came from Tweetsie Railroad. This is most likely not an original but does match the correct time frame. Two stoves were installed at the factory (RPO & Passenger). The passenger compartment spot is large enough for this stove. But the stove will not fit through the door without disassembly. There is no indication that this stove was installed at the factory. Pictures indicate that a stove was added (after January 24, 1941) / present during World War II with a corresponding smokestack in the baggage compartment. The stove had four legs which fit into individual dovetail slots in the bottom of the base. Two of the legs are intact. All four legs are sand cast. We have the broken leg. One leg is missing. Two legs will need to be fabricated. Due to the fact that the car ran for at least twenty years without this stove, it will not be a part of the car's restoration. A later repair has been made to the steel ceiling to cover the smokestack hole in the ceiling. This needs to be re-worked


b) Baggage Compartment Seat

As received from Tweetsie Railroad, a walkover seat with an aisle side armrest was installed in the "B" end right side of the Baggage Compartment. It is of the same type and age as the Passenger Compartment seats as received from Tweetsie Railroad. As noted in the Passenger Compartment writeup, the builder's photos show Passenger Compartment seats with rattan upholstery and without aisle side armrests. There is a square shaped patch in the flooring under the seat. Upon further investigation, there is an irregular round shaped hole in the subfloor and a 2" diameter hole nearby. Both holes are in the subfloor. There is evidence of a wall and sloping skylight in the paint of the passenger side bulkhead. These look like the bathroom in the passenger compartment. It is clear that there was a bathroom installed in the baggage compartment with a toilet and a water cooler on the outside (A end) wall of the bathroom.

There are several issues that point at the bathroom being installed by the ET&WNC shop forces: 1. The stove was added during World War II (after 1/24/1941). 2. The toilet hole in the subfloor is irregular shaped hole. 3. Three bathrooms in this car would be an oddity. 4. There was no outside window in the bathroom. 5. Baggage does not need a bathroom. It is believed that the Baggage section was converted to a passenger section complete with a stove and bathroom for colored people during the commuter train years of World War II. This supports the story that the car was a Jim Crow car for some of its life.

Gil Williams
Project Manager
ET&WNC Combine 15 Restoration

--- In Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Shannon <trainsr6900@...> wrote:

Most of the Southern cars were refitted most from the same classes of heavyweights, they existed in about any configuration you can imagine. I know at least the early streamlined coaches were built  for segregated use. The CG JC cars we have at TVRM (906, 907), one of which retains its partition, had same size restrooms on both ends. http://southernmodeler.info/SRdiagrams.htm One can see all various the floor plans in the diagram books on the bottom of the page of this link.


________________________________
From: Will Vanderburg <Army30th@...>
To: "Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com" <tweetsie@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?



 
The Southern car I refer to: The white restrooms are more like lounges. One on the end and one in the middle (the middle one acts as the separator of the two passenger seating areas.) A couple of seats, a couple of sinks and a lavatory. The rooms are almost big enough to put a bed in. The colored restrooms are located at one end of the car, on opposite sides of the aisle and are about as big as a telephone booth inside. Separate But Equal was being followed (in the Railroad's and other people's eyes) because the sitting area was similar and there were Men's and Women's restrooms. Even my former office there (Barber Station) was segregated.

I do not know if the railroad ordered the car that way OR if it was retrofitted that way when the car was refurbished inside. I don't imagine car foundry's advertising "Jim Crow" cars for sale.

William Vanderburg

To: tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: Army30th@...
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 17:10:06 -0400
Subject: RE: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?

The Jim Crow laws, while primarily in the south, were not confined to the south. Make no mistake about it...I'm not going to get into a racial/segregationist discussion on a RR forum, but no less than 36 states had "Jim Crow" laws on the books from 1876 to 1965.

I don't doubt that Andy Kern did what you said....but, it's not typical.



William Vanderburg




To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
From: keriddle@...
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?


























The passenger section of the 15 was used as a smoker. The little railroad was colorblind from all that I know. The first man to open the throttle on number 12 was black-Andy Kern.



These are the mountains of Tennessee, not the Deep South or big city south.



Ken



Sent from my iPhone



On May 9, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Franklin West <west9628@...> wrote:



That brings to mind another question...was Azalea a Jim Beam car? There was alegedly a piano player at one time. Perhaps there was a bar in the car, too??!!mw
From: johnny <johnnyg@...>
To: Tweetsie@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Was combine # 15 a 'Jim Crow' car?
Following that terminology, then coach 16, and I think 19 and 20 would be considered Jim Crow coaches. Only the 17 had one bathroom in one end.
Starts to bring up the thinking about these cars being kept in two sets all the time. My mind had always considered them one trainset, then another train set, but if each car could be the "Jim Crow" car in multiple trains, that logic makes sense too.
The Board minutes never discussed good stuff like this.
Johnny
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