Date   
Re: Info on UK steam kits

Bob Webber <rswebber@...>
 

I would try Backwoods Minitures - address in the Gaz - he didn't have a a
e-mail address last time. He's made some climaxes in Sn3, Garrats,
etc.from 9mm on up. Great looking stuff. Bob

At 08:40 PM 2/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
From: Jim King <jking@...>

Hi all,

I've read with great interest the various comments about a UK source for
a US-based prototype. Can someone pass on to me the name and email
address to the recommended source(s)? I'm interested in producing an
HOn3 and On3 ET&WNC ten-wheeler in a combination of brass, white metal
and urethane. The mechanism has always been the stumbling block,
particularly drivers, so if we can resolve this issue plus frame and
can-motored drive, I can handle the rest.

Thanks to anyone who responds.

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works



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Response to Rick Steele's comments

Jim King <jking@...>
 

Rick,

I'm relatively new to this list, but the pro and con discussions about new steam
models is very old and continues to go 'round and 'round with no resolution in sight.
Your comments are what's primarily being addressed here, but the overall mood of my
comments pertains to the whole issue of "what new kit do we ask for".

While most of the comments are accurate, relative to marketability, subject matter,
cost, etc., there are a couple points I take issue with. Being a model manufacturer
myself, I have a different perspective on the subject of "what the modeler wants".

First off, I have nothing against Colorado narrow gauge. The fact that many lines
were built at all tests most engineering principles to the max! Other than the Doe
River Gorge on the ET&WNC, there are few examples of typical Colorado terrain in the
east. But I don't live in the West and have no interest in modeling western roads. I
live in North Carolina ... and I do take offense to the "Puking Buzzard" comment you
made. This state is home to the "ET", Lawndale and many other ng lines that now only
exist in text or memory. Despite the comments made by several subscribers to this
list, there IS a good market for eastern subjects not related just to EBT. Ed Cass'
book on the OR&W has helped bring that well-known road to light. Soon, the Mann's
Creek book will be out. My point is, don't think narrow gaugers exist only in
Colorado just because that's where 3' trains still run.

Second, I take issue with the subject matter of what should/shouldn't be imported. If
a manufacturer is tooling up for a die cast boiler, frame, cylinders, et al, then yes,
he should appeal to the widest market to get a return on investment because a
single-cavity die-cast mold can easily run $60,000-80,000! And you'd better plan on
running a minimum of 15,000-20,000 shots from it to get a payback. Kits made from
etched brass, urethane and white metal DO NOT require such tooling investment, just
time to make patterns and rubber molds or artwork for the brass. Sure there is a lot
of time invested, but more time than tooling dollars, so the subject matter can be
economically produced without a second mortgage on the house. These processes are
aimed at short run, limited production subjects. Get your kit(s) when they are first
available, 'cause they won't be around forever. Same principle as brass imports ...
once they're in the states, you'd better have yours reserved or it's likely to be gone
when 'you get around to it'.

Just because the "mass concensus" says to produce yet another Colorado prototype,
that's no reason to blindly ignore the eastern modelers. As a small manufacturer who
does not make a living by making kits, I can be very selective on the next kit's
prototype. That's why I've joined groups like the ET&WNC HS and have answered their
requests for HOn3 rolling stock by producing, short-run urethane kits of the hopper
and a flat, so far. Although my personal interests are now in On3, I plan to continue
the HOn3 product line because this group has supported my efforts as they said they
would.

You mention imported brass prices being so high. Yup, they are now in the collector's
realm ... almost exclusively. Too bad .. there are a lot of nice models to be had,
but most of us would need to win a lottery to afford just one anymore. With the hopes
of an eastern prototype being imported in HOn3, the ET&WNC Historical Society is
currently taking reservations for a set of the 4-6-0s that made the prototype famous.
They are now working with their third importer and the jury's still out on the
outcome. In the meantime, there is no accurate ng power available, but 2-8-0s can be
cobbled up to "get close". And, I've seen the estimated retail price of the ten
wheelers approaching $1000. Too pricy for me. So the option of a brass/white
metal/urethane mixed kit are again looking promising.

In conclusion, don't get blindsided by all the Colorado-hype. With today's varied
manufacturing techniques, there is no reason why we all can't get closer, if not
nearly exact, to the desired model and not just "settle for close enough". Once the
frame and running gear have been established, the superstructure and tender are
relatively simple. Use your imagination, collect data and present it in a logical
format to a prospective manufacturer. You might be surprised to see "your" model be
produced in a year or two.

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works
Asheville, NC

Rick Steele wrote:

CHoefer533@... wrote:

The various K-series locos appear like a rash in the Brass Caboose catalog!
In fact, one's hard pressed to find anything other than "Colorado" based
locos. NO OFFENSE INTENDED TO ANYONE.
You say "like a rash" and then say "NO OFFENSE". Young bucko, I AM offended. I
could give a damn about the fact that Colorado Rankles you. Without Colorado and
the interest in the three foot gauge there, it is unlikely that you would even
have as much material available for modeling as you do.

If you would think about it, you would realize that the C-16 type and its
derivations were found on many other railroads beside the D&RG, as were the T-12
type. Yes, the importers bring out the C-16's almost as a matter of course. Why?
Maybe because they have two existing examples to measure from and maybe because
the demand is there.

Why did I ask for a C-19? Because of the possibilities of modification, because
four still exist. Because of the chance to have a platform from which to build a
possible 42 different derivations for the C&S alone.

I did not suggest this just to pick at your Colorado Hemmoroids. Use your
imagination.... Why a small 2-8-0? How about because many of the components, like
Everything but the frame, Main rod and Side Rods can be used to make a 4-4-0. So
what if it doesn't come out as a 4-4-0 the first time? So What if it's a Colorado
prototype? Do you have a soldering iron? Do what others do, change it.

My suggestion was to make a model which would appeal to the widest possible market
(and no, I don't model the D&RG) and therefore bring in something which would sell
and encourage this manufacturer to make more derivations of 3' gauge locomotives.
Not to import somebody's favorite locomotive, like an oddball 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 from
the Funny Duck and Western Railroad from Puking Buzzard, North Carolina which
would sit like a turkey on the shelves and discourage this manufacturer from ever
trying the HOn3 market again.

Whether you like it or not, it is consumer demand which drives this economy.

If you want to have a particular prototype, then contact a custom builder or put
your money where your mouth is and have your own run of locomotives imported.

My mainstay locos are the Spartans. Since Boone's article they have become
rarefied! I've only encountered a couple since the article (fortunately one
of those people didn't follow NG closely!) Many are in pretty bad shape too!
As to making them run well AND look good, it can be done but requires a major
rebuild (read $ out of proportion to loco cost [I've done 3]). The overall
dimensions aren't particularly hot either. Overall the Spartans were a great
idea however, but with current brass manufacturing and detail standards, we're
definately ready for a new generation of model.
And did anybody ever ask FED (aka Northwest Short Line) why they stopped importing
these locomotives? I did, through my local Hobby Store when I went in to buy a
couple more and they were unavailable, and the answer that I got back was lack of
sales.

We have an opportunity to get a manufacturer who might listen to the hobbyists
with regards to what might sell (remember, sales are still A#1 when it comes to
importing). Recommend a model with the greatest possible demand and get him
hooked, then ask for your "baby".

....and don't snivel because you don't like Colorado. If it weren't for Colorado
and the popularity of its 3' gauge it is unlikely that we would even be having
this discussion.

Rick Steele

Info on UK steam kits

Jim King <jking@...>
 

Hi all,

I've read with great interest the various comments about a UK source for
a US-based prototype. Can someone pass on to me the name and email
address to the recommended source(s)? I'm interested in producing an
HOn3 and On3 ET&WNC ten-wheeler in a combination of brass, white metal
and urethane. The mechanism has always been the stumbling block,
particularly drivers, so if we can resolve this issue plus frame and
can-motored drive, I can handle the rest.

Thanks to anyone who responds.

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works

Re: Combine 15 Donations

Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
 

I do have the letter. It listed the levels of recognition by amount of
donation. It made no references to making payments toward a goal, which is
what prompted my question in the first place.

I leave it up to the Society's officers to decide what to do on accounting.
In the meantime, I'm sending in donations by the month. If I don't get
recognition, so be it. The goal is to get Combine 15 restored, not to
receive a certificate.

Curtis

-----Original Message-----
From: John Waite <jwaite@...>
To: Tweetsie@... <Tweetsie@...>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 9:18 AM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Re: Combine 15 Donations


From: John Waite <jwaite@...>

Curtis,
It was my intent that you would be able to make payments and that they
would accumulate toward a particular level. I don't have the letter here
with me right now so I don't remember whether I put it in the letter. Sorry
if I didn't make it clear.

John Waite Technology Coordinator
De Soto Public Schools Email: jwaite@...
221 S. 3rd Voice: 1-314-586-1005 FAX: 1-314-586-1009
De Soto, Missouri
*Aut inveniam viam aut faciam*
*I shall either find a way or make one!*



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Re: Combine 15 Donations

John Waite <jwaite@...
 

Send the money. We'll keep up with payments. I'll just keep adding to the
amount in the data base. SHOW ME THE MONEY!

John Waite Technology Coordinator
De Soto Public Schools Email: jwaite@...
221 S. 3rd Voice: 1-314-586-1005 FAX: 1-314-586-1009
De Soto, Missouri
*Aut inveniam viam aut faciam*
*I shall either find a way or make one!*

Re: Combine 15 Donations

John Waite <jwaite@...
 

Curtis,
It was my intent that you would be able to make payments and that they
would accumulate toward a particular level. I don't have the letter here
with me right now so I don't remember whether I put it in the letter. Sorry
if I didn't make it clear.

John Waite Technology Coordinator
De Soto Public Schools Email: jwaite@...
221 S. 3rd Voice: 1-314-586-1005 FAX: 1-314-586-1009
De Soto, Missouri
*Aut inveniam viam aut faciam*
*I shall either find a way or make one!*

Re: Combine 15 Donations

johnny graybeal
 

My first knee jerk reaction would be to make a pledge, with a date that it
will be sent, and then wait until that date to send it. Keeping up with it
any other way would be a nightmare. On the other hand, John Waite is in
charge of the fund raising, so what ever he thinks.
This project may stretch out for years. We can always take more money from
you later if you want to give more. Tax deductions work every year.

-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
To: Tweetsie Group <Tweetsie@...>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:55 PM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Combine 15 Donations


From: "Curtis Brookshire" <curtis.brookshire@...>

Members of the ET&WNC Historical Society received a request to donate to
the
restoration of Combine 15. The sheet also listed different categories of
recognition based on the amount of donation.

I have a question to ask the Society officers and our group in general:
Could members make payments to a goal? I may want to give, let's say for
example five hundred dollars, but can't do it right now. Let's say I can
send fifty to seventy five dollars for several months until I reach my
goal.
What's the window for these donations? I would like to see us be able to
make payments and think this will result in a higher overall donation.

What do you think?

Curtis



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Re: Combine 15 Donations

fwest@...
 

Gary Scoggin's idea of a pledge seems workable. Churches do that, for
instance, so they can estimate a budget.mw

Re: Combine 15 Donations

Ken Riddle <ken290@...>
 

Great idea Curtis!

Ken

----------
From: Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
To: Tweetsie Group <Tweetsie@...>
Subject: [Tweetsie] Combine 15 Donations
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:54 PM

From: "Curtis Brookshire" <curtis.brookshire@...>

Members of the ET&WNC Historical Society received a request to donate to
the
restoration of Combine 15. The sheet also listed different categories of
recognition based on the amount of donation.

I have a question to ask the Society officers and our group in general:
Could members make payments to a goal? I may want to give, let's say for
example five hundred dollars, but can't do it right now. Let's say I can
send fifty to seventy five dollars for several months until I reach my
goal.
What's the window for these donations? I would like to see us be able to
make payments and think this will result in a higher overall donation.

What do you think?

Curtis



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to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
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Re: Combine 15 Donations

Gary B Scoggins <Gary.B.Scoggins@...>
 

Just send a pledge and when you've accumulated the total send it in. Bits and
pieces I'd think will make accounting a nightmare.
My opinion for what it's worth.

Combine 15 Donations

Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
 

Members of the ET&WNC Historical Society received a request to donate to the
restoration of Combine 15. The sheet also listed different categories of
recognition based on the amount of donation.

I have a question to ask the Society officers and our group in general:
Could members make payments to a goal? I may want to give, let's say for
example five hundred dollars, but can't do it right now. Let's say I can
send fifty to seventy five dollars for several months until I reach my goal.
What's the window for these donations? I would like to see us be able to
make payments and think this will result in a higher overall donation.

What do you think?

Curtis

Trip to ET RWY

fwest@...
 

Over this past weekend, a friend and I traveled to Johnson City in
beautiful weather and saw the Nr 214 diesel recently pruchased by the ET.
It is gorgeous!! Southern green and white with gold letters and, from what
I could see was beautifully restored. I believe it to be an SW 1200, but
perhaps Jim Six could ID that better. One of the older black and orange
diesels was still in the enginehouse, so has not yet been moved to its new
owner.

After photographing the engine, we went to look for ETWNC roadbed. The
owner of the ROW just east of tunnel Nr one was very nice and let us drive
part of the way and walk the rest to the tunnel and the site of the covered
deck bridge. I was aware that that tunnel had been gouged out of solid
rock when the ETWNC was anticipated to be a five foot gauge RR in the early
1800's, but had no idea the tunnel would be so large. The other tunnels
are not nearly so large, but this one was truly magnificent. It was clean,
though there was evidence of a campfire, and safe, and at the end were the
abutments to the covered deck bridge.

After photographing the tunnel and bridge abutments, we went down hwy 321
and turned rt onto Stevens Road which took us to within a couple hundred
yards of the other covered bridge abutments at Hampton. On exiting back
onto 321, we crossed and went down to the Doe River Christian Camp. The
people there were just as pleasant as could be (and even said nice things
about the historical society in general and Johnny Graybeal in
particular!!). They took us on a tour of their replica boxcars and ex-CSX
work cars, showed us a couple of motorcars, and let us have free reign to
walk the roadbed, which we did. It took abt an hour to walk through
tunnels two and three, gaze at the beauty of the Doe River Gorge and arrive
at Pardee Point. There is NO litter, the roadbed is in remarkably good
condition, and the place is safe, beautiful, and interesting. We cleared
some rocks which had fallen and some tree limbs off the roadbed at a few
places, but it got to be a much bigger job after Pardee Point leading to
the bridge, and it was getting late, so we returned.

The folks that operate the camp said the society members were always
welcomed to visit if we would just check in with them and they asked that
we not visit from June 1st to Mid-August because of camping activities by 8
to 18 year old camp kids.

We saw a few needs for switch targets and we have a few extras, so we will
return later this spring and mount the targets for the camp people and will
do it in the name of the ETWNC Hist Society unless someone objects.

The new diesel, a tour of the roadbed and the tunnels, all in beautiful
weather with nice people. It dont get better than that!!mw

Re: The six pilot coupler

fwest@...
 

Ill take a shot at an answer. Perhaps Johnny Graybeal can correct me.

Perhaps during the timeframe you mentioned, the 2-8-0 engines no longer
were being used in the Johnson City yard or in any other connection with
the standard gauge operations, so the three-way coupler was removed and
placed on one of the 4-6-0's which interconnected with both standard and
narrow gauge cars. That doesnt answer the resulting drop in coupler
height, but could answer the changing of the coupler.mw

The six pilot coupler

Sergent, Frank <Frank_Sergent@...>
 

Tweetsie Experts:

Does anybody have an idea why the number six's front coupler was changed and
moved down between 1909 and 1925? This is opposite of the general idea that
ET&WNC engines got higher 3-way couplers over time.

The photo on page 5 of the Jan-Feb-Mar 98 Stemwinder shows #6 with what
appears to be a high mounted 3-way coupler in 1909. The photo on the front
cover of the shows the same engine in 1925 and the back cover shows it in
1929 with a much lower non 3-way coupler. Note the different cut bar
configurations also. This would seem indicate that at least some rolling
stock had low couplers (24"?) as late as 1929.

Any ideas???

Thanks in advance,
Frank Sergent

Re: Update on trucks

Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
 

Sounds great! Continue marching forward.
Curtis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jking@...>
To: On3 Group <on3@...>; ET&WNC HS Email List <Tweetsie@...>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: [Tweetsie] Update on trucks


From: Jim King <jking@...>

Hello all,

Last week, I spent a very enjoyable evening with Paul Redmond of On-Trak
Models in eastern North Carolina. Among other things, one topic was
making inexpensive, quality trucks for HOn3 and On3 (with 30" gauge
options, too).

Bottom line is that I can make the patterns of the various ET&WNC (my
main interest) side frame styles for him to spin cast in a Zamac/pewter
mixed metal. The bolsters will likely be urethane, similar to what
Design Tech recently advertised in the Gazette. No screws will be
needed for assembly ... just slide the side frame tab into the bolster
slot and add a small styrene 'cap strip' over the slot to keep in
place. Slight equilization should be maintained but is not critical to
smooth operation on smooth track.

We can get the sideframes in any style, including McCord and Simplex and
in any gauge by using new urethane bolsters.

Any photos or other info you folks can loan me toward this project would
be most appreciated. If you have any info, let me know offline, please.

Thanks,

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works


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Update on trucks

Jim King <jking@...>
 

Hello all,

Last week, I spent a very enjoyable evening with Paul Redmond of On-Trak
Models in eastern North Carolina. Among other things, one topic was
making inexpensive, quality trucks for HOn3 and On3 (with 30" gauge
options, too).

Bottom line is that I can make the patterns of the various ET&WNC (my
main interest) side frame styles for him to spin cast in a Zamac/pewter
mixed metal. The bolsters will likely be urethane, similar to what
Design Tech recently advertised in the Gazette. No screws will be
needed for assembly ... just slide the side frame tab into the bolster
slot and add a small styrene 'cap strip' over the slot to keep in
place. Slight equilization should be maintained but is not critical to
smooth operation on smooth track.

We can get the sideframes in any style, including McCord and Simplex and
in any gauge by using new urethane bolsters.

Any photos or other info you folks can loan me toward this project would
be most appreciated. If you have any info, let me know offline, please.

Thanks,

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works

Re: Printer Cartridge refills

RICKY WILCOX <rickywilcox@...>
 

---
Ricky Wilcox

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:26:31 Mike West wrote:
From: fwest@... (Mike West)

The list is called "Tweetsie" because we are interested in the railroad;
not business development.mw



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select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
DEAR, WEST
DO YOU OR ANY BODY HAVE ANY "USEFUL" INFORMATION ABOUT THE RAILROAD. WELL I HAVE TONS OF INFORMATION ABOUT THE ET&WNC OR TEETSIE. I'M A ET&WNC MEMBER. I LIVE CLOSE TO TWEETSIE IT A COUPLE OF MILES UP THE ROAD.

WELL I GO TO GO RICKY WILCOX


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com

Re: Printer Cartridge refills

fwest@...
 

The list is called "Tweetsie" because we are interested in the railroad;
not business development.mw

Printer Cartridge refills

Phread <fred1945@...>
 

Anyone who buys Printer Cartridge Refills please contact me and let me
know what type, color, part/stock number, etc. I may be able to supply
these at considerable savings over retail.

So, instead of going to your local Office Supply outlet, check with me
first, I may save you some money?

Phread

36 ft. flats

Jim King <jking@...>
 

Johnny,

<<< NOTE>>>
Although this message is intended mainly for Johnny Graybeal, because
I'm referencing the ET freight roster he's assembled, I'm also copying
the ET mail list in hopes someone else has info on the rather confusing
freight car roster that ET operated!

I'm currently writing the history section for the On3 36' flat
instructions and, as usual, your equipment roster and notes have been
invaluable. Thanks for spending the time to sort thru records and put
it into a concise, legible format.

As we've discussed before, there are a lot of loopholes and missing
links in the data. I'm having particular problems trying to find out
which 36 foot flats stayed flats and which ones were converted to gons
or something else. You state "WOOD" for many car numbers and then
"GONDOLA" for the same car. What does 'wood' mean? Was it a flat with
temporarily-added stakes to be used to hauled cord wood or was is really
rebuilt with side boards as a gon? From the photos I've seen, flats
rebuilt as gons had different stake pockets in the center than a flat
car with temporary side boards. Converted gons appear to be permanently
altered, because they use 2 single U-bolt stake pockets in the center
that attach to the center sills for stability.

Any help is appreciated. I need to go car by car thru your roster to
determine which numbers are accurate for the kit, so an explanation of
'wood', 'flat' and 'gondola' are essential.

Thanks in advance for your help. The kit will be shipping late
Feb/early March and will be available at the convention, maybe with a
2nd car by then.

Jim King
SMMW