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Re: The 12's Whistle
Jerry A. Shepardson <cmstc@...>
ken290 wrote:
Ken, Boy, I sure hope you feel better now that you've vented! ;-) Seriously, your points are well taken and we all should (and I think are) grateful to the Tweetsie folks for all they have done to preserve #12. Let's also not forget the donation of combine 15. I also realize that it's THEIR property and they have a right to paint it in any d*** color they please! Anytime we want to sing the praises to the folks at Tweetsie, I'll lead the choir! That said, do you really think it makes any difference to Mr/Mrs. J.Q. Public, who are taking the kids for a day of fun, what color the engine is? Do you suppose that Tweetsie lost business during the time #12 was painted correctly due to it's paint? I don't think the folks who come to Tweetsie give a flip about the color of the engine. Railfans, however do. Marketed properly to the railfan crowd, how much extra business could be gained if the #12 was painted in her correct colors? Probably not much, but then again it certainly wouldn't cost them any business either. Jerry A. Shepardson The Southern Serves the South
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Re: The 12's Whistle
Michael Paschall <michael@...>
Jerry,
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I'm afraid that from a marketing point of view, the folks at Tweetsie are right. They have defined their park to seek repeat business from families with kids from five to twelve years old. They are just about the only people in the United States who still get excited over a REPEAT of a train robbery or an indian attack. For that five to twelve year old crowd, the brighter and gaudier it is, the better! Whatever it is, even an honored old locomotive. Railfans will never represent the turnstile impact that the kids do. So Tweetsie must sensibly sell their product to the kids. Thank God #12 remains part of that product. Remember, she has a heart of gold, no matter what makeup she's wearing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry A. Shepardson <cmstc@infoave.net> To: Tweetsie@onelist.com <Tweetsie@onelist.com> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] The 12's Whistle From: "Jerry A. Shepardson" <cmstc@infoave.net>
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paint jobs
Rick Blanchard <bdesign@...>
Jerry,
That said, do you really think it makes any difference to Mr/Mrs. J.Q.I think you missed Marketing 101 somewhere along the way. The paint job IS really important to JQPublic. Especially if you are 9 or 10 and it is your birthday trip. A steam engine all decked out in brass and green and yellow with flags and stuff is really an incredible sight. An all black engine with white lettering just wouldn't have as much impact. That 9 year old may be a future member of the Historical Sopciety someday just from that impression. As a percentage of the gate, I doubt that railfans who are fussy about historically accurate paint jobs are such a minute percentage that there would be absolutely no measurable increase in attendance. A less than stellar experience for that 9 year old may not make him or her want to return on their 10th birthday though. If shiny paint is what it takes to make it worthwhile to do a major shopping on 12 then paint it purple with green polka-dots and let her roll. Well, maybe not *that*, but consider now that the Tweetsie scheme has become a historical paint job itself. When you go there you get to see current history! Cheers, Rick -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rick Blanchard rick@urbaneagle.com San Diego, CA My East Tennessee and Western North Carolina web site: http://www.urbaneagle.com/slim/etwnc.html
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Re: paint jobs
Jerry A. Shepardson <cmstc@...>
Rick Blanchard wrote:
Who said anything about a black engine? #12 was painted in the ET & WNC's beautiful green and gold with plenty of brass (even a bit of red). -- Jerry A. Shepardson The Southern Serves the South
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Re: paint jobs
johnny graybeal <johnnyg@...>
Well, it seems that a great deal of mental effort is going on out there,
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especially from people who have not seen the engine. As has been said, No. 12 is in the same paint job that she has had for years. For the record, when they "repainted" her in 1992, it was the same ole tweetsie paint job, with ET&WNC lettering. And that is all we are talking about here, the lettering. When the engine was rolled out last week, she needed to be lettered. Frank Aldridge chose yellow with red edging because she used to look that way before the 1979 rebuild. He was honoring her "heritage" so to speak. It turns out that office management prefers the gold lettering so it will probably be changed back to gold by next year. It is vinyl lettering, not paint, and can be changed fairly easily. Frank Coffey would be the first to point out that 12 has been at Tweetsie longer now than she was on the ET. She has gone through more lettering schemes at TRR than anywhere else. This latest scheme is just another one. One thing you can bet on, 12 will not be painted ET&WNC again anytime soon. Heritage does not a billboard make. I would have thought that changing the whistle pitch would have caused more stir than vinyl lettering. Its the same thing, putting it back to how it "used to be". I've already heard the complaint, "its not what I;m used to". Its probably a good thing we don't own the engine, we would spend all the profit on paint. My suggestion would be to come see the engine for yourself. The more I see it the more that yellow and red grows on me, although I will welcome changing it back. If you don't come this year you may not get to see it. Let's pick something else to argue over, like the color of the cover of John Waites book, for petes sake. Johnny graybeal Society Pres.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry A. Shepardson <cmstc@infoave.net> To: Tweetsie@onelist.com <Tweetsie@onelist.com> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Tweetsie] paint jobs From: "Jerry A. Shepardson" <cmstc@infoave.net>
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Re: paint jobs
Steve & Gail Schulman <buchanan@...>
Any idea when we can start doing this. Really looking forward to it.
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Steve Schulman
Let's pick something else to argue over, like the color of the cover of
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Re: paint jobs
C Ford <cfordart@...>
Hey, watch it...now you gone to meddlin'...
It'll take an awful lot of flaming to get me to change the color of the cover of John's book :^) And I hope you like green, 'cause that's what yer gettin' :^) And there won't be any question about "what color green it was" ;^) And I'm workin' on it right now...well, actually I'm answering e-mail right now, but as soon as I get through with the e-mail, it's back to work. Gotta get through before the millennium :^) ----------------------- Chris Ford cfordart@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~cfordart/etwnc/home.html
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GOOD NEWS for EBT fans:
Bill Miller
To: EBT-LIST@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Thought some of you not on the EBT list might br interested in this for a change of pace: I would like to see Comments about this from list members! FROM; Bill Miller.............................Chesapeake Beach, MD. The following article appeared on the front page of Thursday morning's Altoona Mirror: ____________________________________________ ROCKHILL--A penny wedged against each drive wheel on a steam locomotive will keep it from rolling, even if the engineer opened the throttle wide, old railroaders say. Money also is the obstacle stalling a $46 million project to restore the narrow-gauge East Broad Top Railroad. However, on Wednesday the project nudged a little closer to its goal. Officials announced a $1 million grant to stabilize a complex of maintenance shops at EBT headquarters in Rockhill, plus the extension of a state heritage park to include the 33-mile-long rail line. "Every journey begins with a single step," said Randy Cooley, executive director of the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage Preservation Commission. "But once you begin, you have inertia." Once a hauler of local coal from Robertsdale north to the mainline at Mount Union, the EBT now only runs summer tourists five miles out and back from Rockhill. Still, it's the only complete shortline railroad left in the nation, and the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C. calls it the finest, Cooley said. The study calls for rehabilitating the tracks and for refurbishing the shops, locomotives and rolling stock to allow for excursions along the entire line and a connection with the mainline--boosting ridership from 12,000 annually to 100,000. EBT owner Joe Kovalchick, Indiana, PA, obtained the Transportation Enhancement Act for the 21st Century money by applying for it himself. He will need to put the shop complex in a nonprofit trust to receive the public funding, officials said. Kovalchick's father, Nick, bought the line in the mid-1950s to sell for scrap, but he held off the sale because of depressed prices. He tried a tourist excursion for a local centennial in 1960. Joe Kovalchick took over in the mid-1960s and continued the excursions. "It was part of our family heritage," said Kovalchick, who said he loses money on the tourist runs. Stabilizing the deterioration of the shops and making improvements that might allow tourists to appreciate some of the operation will probably cost about $2 million, Cooley said. In the year it will take for the formalities to acquire the TEA-21 money, agencies hope to get the rest through matching funds from the state capital budget, private foundations. The shop complex includes a roundhouse for engines, a blacksmith shop, machine shop, boiler shop, a foundry, a car shop, a sandhouse, a coaling dock, five storage buildings and a stone farmhouse that predates the railroad, said Stanley Hall, who manages the operation. The project will need a consultant to evaluate what needs done and set priorities. "If it's a choice between fixing a building falling in and polishing a machine, it's obvious," said Jane Sheffield, executive director of the Allegheny Ridge Corp., which manages the Allegheny Ridge Heritage Park in northern Somerset, Cambria, Blair, and now Huntingdon counties, with the extension that includes the EBT. As the shop stabilization proceeds, it will help build steam to raise funds for additional work, Cooley predicted. As the project advances, preservation agencies will develop a business plan to ensure it can remain solvent, relying on tourist income, sponsorships and fund raising that cites the project as a good cause, Cooley said, in response to a question citing current financial difficulties of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. "No question that as each (heritage project) gets built, better business planning is occurring," he said. As a coal-hauling transport line, the EBT ties in with the themes of the 7-year-old state heritage park, which is creating a trails path to link sites that illustrate the area's industrial heritage of coal mining and transportation, plus iron and steel making, Sheffield said. Not all the sites are completed. The sites include the gateway Coal Heritage Center, the Arcadia Theater and Miner's Memorial Park in Windber; a gateway heritage discovery center (on which ground was broken Wednesday), the downtown flood museum, the Wagner-Ritter House and the Cambria Iron Company in Johnstown; a former silk mill in Portage; the gateway Canal Basin Park (going to bid this summer), the Chimney Rocks Accessible Park (just opened) and canal worker houses in Hollidaysburg; the gateway Heritage Discovery Center (to be finished in October), Heritage Plaza and the Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art in Altoona. Allegheny Ridge is working with trail groups to prepare and open sections of trails to form the backbone of the park. So far, the Lower Trail from Alexandria to Williamsburg with an extension to Canoe Creek is the main completed segment. The Allegheny Park and its new extension into Huntingdon County are part of a Pennsylvania Mainline Canal Corridor envisioned by the Allegheny Ridge Corp. and agencies like the state Department of Conservation & Natural Resources. (end of article) >>
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A word from a new member ....
Karl & Edwina Kleeman <kleenc@...>
One can appreciate the money spent on restoring number 12 and still lament
the circus atmosphere in which she now resides. I for one appreciate the wonderful history of this little railroad and the pride the workers took in their equipment and their railroad. I prefer to honor the memory of that little railroad and those people through reasonably accurate information and restorations. I will enjoy the new book and the fine work done by the historic society. I still am sorry that more was not saved and I am sorry that number 12 must be a circus engine to have value in todays society. I think this says a lot about our society and our values. But that is the way it is and I hope number 12 excits and gives pleasure to lots of kids. If it were me, I would given her a little more dignity and still would have attracted folks, not to the circus, but to a bit of history. But I am not presumtious enough the tell them how to run their business. I must admit, I am not too excited about going to Tweesie, but in the end I will probably go just to see and hear her run. But I will still exercise my right to remember number 12 and this fine little railroad through my videos and books provided by those who seem to care about this little piece of history. I like it like that. Just an old fashion sort of fellow with a tender spot for the good old ET&WNC who does lament our current $$$$ driven value system. Karl Kleeman
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Re: paint jobs
John Waite <jwaite@...
Soon, Chris is working on the layout now. The photos are all scanned, the
text is finished, the maps are done. Should be ready for the printer in a couple of months or so. Will definately be on bookshelves by the Christmas shopping season....I hope. John Waite Technology Coordinator De Soto Public Schools De Soto, MO 63020 Work: 1-314-586-1005 Home: 1-314-586-4573 E-Mail: jwaite@dragon.desoto.k12.mo.us vdd000@pop.connect.more.net
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Trains WP&Y Article
Malcolm Marion <mmarion@...>
Hi everyone,
I was flipping through the new July issue of Trains magazine when I came across a letter to the editor on page 10. The letter is from Ralph Beaumont of Paris, Ont. and highlights his memories of a trip to Skagway in 1979. It seems he was hiking in the river to where locomotives had been buried as riprap. "Someone had been mucking about with a bulldozer, and had uncovered one of the line's narrow gauge 4-6-0's. We were surprised that it wasn't just the hulk of a boiler shell and frame, but the complete locomotive still sporting pilot, smokestack, and even airpumps." A small photo is included showing the engine down on the left side. I think I see two airpumps and can't tell if the domes are too close together for our prototypes. Could this be a picture of our illusive #10 or 14? Could extra airpumps have been added in Seattle. I know a snowplow and different running boards were placed on the engines there. For those with good eyes and expertise, take a look and let us hear your thoughts. Malcolm Malcolm Marion mmarion@cetlink.net
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Re: Trains WP&Y Article
Bruce Pryor <bpryor@...>
Malcolm Marion wrote:
This came up on the White Pass list a month or two ago. There is no evidence that #10 and/or #14 were scrapped or dumped in Skagway or Whitehorse. Reliable reports are that they were returned to Seattle for scrapping. The Army took back to Seattle everything WP&Y didn't buy. A bunch of the old WP&Y engines and a rotary were dumped in the river at Skagway. The engine numbers and location are documented. Two have been pulled out and are now behind the shops. I know a snowplow and differentDoes anyone have pictures that can be posted showing them in Seattle or in service on WP&Y? I have photos of them after the fire. Bruce Pryor White Pass & Yukon Pictures http://www.pacifier.com/~bpryor Narrow Gauge From Off the Beaten Path http://narrowmind.railfan.net
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Gazettes for sale
Jim King <jking@...>
Hi all,
I've pulled 15 extra copies from my Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette collection and the following issues are for sale as a **GROUP**, not singly. The best offer received by 5/31 gets the bunch. All will be mailed via US Postal Service 4th class "book rate" to the winner. The issues are listed by year and no. of the months covered (May/June 94 would be 1994: 5/6, for example): 84: 9/10 86: 5/6 92: 9/10 93: 3/4, 5/6 (2 copies), 9/10 94: 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 95: 1/2, 5/6, 7/8, 11/12 96: 1/2 Thanks for your help in cleaning out my library! Jim King Smoky Mountain Model Works
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Re: Trains WP&Y Article
Gary B Scoggins <Gary.B.Scoggins@...>
To add more "I wonder:" to the Malcolm's thoughts...........Fran Coffey has told
me several times that he in fact stood atop of the 10 in the river. (when he went up there to pick out the 190) By Frank, these dumped engines were the beginnings of a breakwall. This question would now seem to add a whole lot more umph to his story than most have given it over the passing years.
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Re: Trains WP&Y Article
Bruce Pryor <bpryor@...>
White pass had only one inside frame 4-6-0. Here is a photo of it:
http://narrowmind.railfan.net/early_steam/62_BLW_.JPG It has different axle spacing than #10 and #14. I've emailed a friend in Skagway, asking if he can get some photos of the engines still in the river. I'll let you know what turns up, but it may take a while, if he will do it. Bruce Pryor
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Re: Photos of 10 & 14 on the WP&Y
Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
I researched this topic in the National Archives several years ago. The
Archives has the US Army Signal Corps photo repository. They have no photos of the ex-ET&WNC locomotives. If we are to find definitive photos, they must come from another source. Hope someone locates one in their collections. Trains Magazine had a photo of Number 10 undergoing refit in Seattle prior to shipment to Skagway. Not sure of the month (Johnny help me here), but it was in early 1943. 10 received front end ladders and other detail changes. I have also seen a photo of 14 prior to being scrapped in Seattle following the roundhouse fire also showing the detail changes. Trains had a recent article on the WP&Y which listed existing locomotives including those used as rip-rap. I still believe the story of ET&WNC 10 being used as rip-rap as being apocriphal. I would love to discover some positive proof one way or the other. Keep digging. Curtis
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Re: Gazettes for sale
Michael Paschall <michael@...>
Hi Jim,
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My offer for the Gazettes is $45.00 for the lot. If this is the winning bid and you are going to the ET&WNC convention in Boone, you can save the postage and bring them to me there. Previously, we have discussed back issues of the Stemwinder. My collection starts with Volume 8 Number 1, or the July,August,September 1995 issue. I am desperate to have copies of the earlier issues. If you are coming to the convention and brought them with you, I would photocopy them and return them to you before you leave for home. Alternatively, I would be happy to pay you for your expenses and trouble ($1.50 an issue) if you would care to copy them and send me the copies. Thanks for all your assistance. Michael P.S. My mailing address is: Michael Paschall PMB 410 2300 Bethelview Rd, Ste 110 Cumming, GA 30040-9474 My e-mail address is: michael@bakerstreet.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jking@ioa.com> To: Caylor, Bill <Caylor@Bellsouth.net>; ET&WNC HS Email List <Tweetsie@onelist.com>; HOn3 mail list <HOn3@onelist.com>; Logging email list <4L@onelist.com>; O Scale Group <oscaletrains@lists.cirr.com>; On3 Group <on3@onelist.com> Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 4:07 PM Subject: [Tweetsie] Gazettes for sale From: Jim King <jking@ioa.com>
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Re: Gazettes for sale
Jim King <jking@...>
Michael,
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So far, your bid is the best. I will bring them with me should you "win" them. I'll also bring all of my Stemwinders back to #1 for you to copy. I'll be at Tweetsie Friday and Saturday, but need to leave after the Saturday banquet. If you can't get them all copied in that time frame, just take what you need back home and send them UPS when you're done. I thought you were in Lincolnton? When did you move to GA? Jim Michael Paschall wrote:
From: "Michael Paschall" <michael@bakerstreet.com>
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Gon Plan
Curtis Brookshire <curtis.brookshire@...>
The May/June Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette features an Edward H. Cass
plan of ET&WNC gondola 188. BTW, saw a slide last night of ET&WNC 210 taken around 1972 in Elizabethton. It's in the Southern Railway black/white scheme. Had I known my friend had that slide, I would have submitted it for publication in John's book. Memorial Day Greetings, Curtis
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Re: Gon Plan
C Ford <cfordart@...>
It's not too late to submit a photo for the book, Curtis, if it's one
that John thinks would add to the chapter. You might contact him and check. Regards and see ya in Boone, Chris ----------------------- Chris Ford cfordart@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~cfordart/etwnc/home.html
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