Topics

My first of today kinglet...and more not bird related :0

Adrian Hinkle
 

Thank you, Ethan, for speaking up for the majority of us who would prefer
EBB sightings and EBB discussion to be the same thing.

I see the point that some listservs get flooded with off-topic posts, like
"RFI birding Costa Rica" or "scope for sale". I don't mind those posts
because I can just delete them (and some of them are actually helpful and
interesting), but I understand that some members might not want to see
them. That's fine. But like Ethan pointed out, most relevant birding topics
transition naturally from a sighting (such as "Yellow-bellied Sapsucker at
x place in Contra Costa") to a discussion ("Yellow-bellied Spasuckers have
appeared at x place previously"). Trying to separate these discussions
doesn't make sense. Those who *only* want to hear about sightings should do
so via eBird. Or start a WhatsApp group. Or go out birding and make some
birding friends who will text you when they find something exciting.

I tried to get into the habit of posting to EBB when I first moved here in
2018, but only about half of my posts made it through. The threatening
anti-discussion posts didn't make me feel inclined to fix the problem, so I
stopped posting (after the fact, I wonder if my posts were being censored).
Unfortunately, this had a lasting impact on my birding habits. I never felt
like there was much of a birding community in the East Bay, so I gave up
and starting to bird other nearby areas (such as Marin) instead.

It's sad, because I was very active on the Oregon listserv before moving
here. It was common (and awesome) to be involved in discussions about bird
status and distribution, access to local birding hotspots, announcements
about major birding festivals and events like CBCs, heads-ups about weather
events that might result in some interesting birding, and so forth. It took
me a long time to understand why many of California's listservs fail to
take advantage of their platforms to do the same, but now I see why.

Can we open a poll to vote on whether to allow "discussion" posts on
EBB-sightings?

Best,

Adrian Hinkle
Berkeley

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:45 PM John Sterling <jsterling@...>
wrote:

I fully agree that the kid’s wisdom and argument are difficult to ignore
and counter. He should be commended for his well structured, constructive
and thoughtful post.

If he really can’t post anymore, it is counterproductive as he is one of
the rising stars in the young birding circles and is also one of the more
active birders in the listserv region.

John Sterling
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

26 Palm Ave
Woodland, CA 95695

PO Box 1653
Woodland, CA 95776A

530 908-3836
jsterling@...
www.sterlingbirds.com

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Joachim Gonzalez <gonzalexgaming21@...>
wrote:

That is an excellent point Ethan Monk. I hear now that he is not allowed
to
post on the listserv anymore. Was that an accident?

Good Birding,
Joachim Gonzalez

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly
a
momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post
here,
if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
about...

I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and
questions
about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here,
publicly,
where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have
received
about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one
group
allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as
long
as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID,
distribution,
further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?

As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the
aptly
named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found,
which I
still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to
respond
directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to
adopt
(bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly
entailing
the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am
one
of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
EBB-Discussion.

I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a
poll
(it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform.
One
particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active
member of
our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community.
What
happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss
and,
dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our
community!
Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this
group
into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between
eBird
and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported
here
via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
*please
*keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution,
to
demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders
with
bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?

On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning
list
of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly
some
900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have
not
joined EBB-Discussions.

And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is
"listserv
shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to
pay
attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye
Regular
in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters
here
who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes,
and
I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just
as
someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many
have
chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes
discussion
on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone
about
fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem
disappear
but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's
11
messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm
the
average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)

I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a
change
has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group
was a
good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.

--Ethan







EBB-Support <EBB-Support@...>
 

This email address is no longer active.

Bruce Mast
 

Hear hear! I too am rather frustrated with the draconian limits on bird
sighting-related correspondence.

Btw, just saw a turkey vulture over 4th Street in Berkeley. Poor habitat
for a vulture.

Bruce Mast
Oakland

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly a
momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post here,
if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
about...

I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and questions
about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here, publicly,
where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have received
about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one group
allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as long
as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID, distribution,
further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?

As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the aptly
named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found, which I
still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to respond
directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to adopt
(bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly entailing
the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am one
of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
EBB-Discussion.

I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a poll
(it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform. One
particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active member of
our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community. What
happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss and,
dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our community!
Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this group
into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between eBird
and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported here
via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
*please
*keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution, to
demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders with
bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?

On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning list
of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly some
900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have not
joined EBB-Discussions.

And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is "listserv
shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to pay
attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye Regular
in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters here
who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes, and
I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just as
someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many have
chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes discussion
on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone about
fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem disappear
but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's 11
messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm the
average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)

I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a change
has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group was a
good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.

--Ethan



Noah Arthur
 

I completely agree with this... I have always thought the East Bay birding community is stunted because of the draconian rules on EBB-Sightings. For example, the ban on posting events has been what’s stopped me from leading informal gull and shorebird field trips in the East Bay. I do that in the North Bay specifically because the East Bay Listserve doesn’t allow the announcements. 
Oh and I saw a Hermit Thrush in the yard today.
Noah Arthur (Oakland)

On Friday, March 6, 2020, 10:46:28 AM PST, Bruce Mast <cathrasher4@...> wrote:

Hear hear! I too am rather frustrated with the draconian limits on bird
sighting-related correspondence.

Btw, just saw a turkey vulture over 4th Street in Berkeley. Poor habitat
for a vulture.

Bruce Mast
Oakland

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly a
momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post here,
if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
about...

I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and questions
about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here, publicly,
where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have received
about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one group
allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as long
as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID, distribution,
further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?

As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the aptly
named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found, which I
still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to respond
directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to adopt
(bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly entailing
the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am one
of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
EBB-Discussion.

I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a poll
(it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform. One
particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active member of
our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community. What
happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss and,
dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our community!
Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this group
into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between eBird
and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported here
via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
*please
*keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution, to
demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders with
bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?

On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning list
of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly some
900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have not
joined EBB-Discussions.

And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is "listserv
shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to pay
attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye Regular
in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters here
who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes, and
I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just as
someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many have
chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes discussion
on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone about
fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem disappear
but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's 11
messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm the
average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)

I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a change
has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group was a
good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.

--Ethan



John Sterling
 

I run the countybirders list and have very open policies regarding postings. Feel free to post about personal birding items for sale, classes and other events, bird sightings, requests for information on species distribution, natural history, status, and other topics relevant to birding culture in all of California. I see no need to impede anyone from making a post that is useful to at least someone in the group. I’ve never had to put anyone on moderated status, ban anyone or deal with ridiculous threads. About ten or so years ago, a couple of non-birding spammers infiltrated the list, but those were dealt with. No problems since.

As has been noted from others over the past decades, if you don’t want to read a post, you can delete it.

Also, I run a WhatsApp group for Yolo Birding (also deals with good birds in Solano/Sacramento area). If you want to join, send me your name and phone number in a WhatsApp text and I’ll add you.


John Sterling
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

26 Palm Ave
Woodland, CA 95695

PO Box 1653
Woodland, CA 95776A

530 908-3836
jsterling@...
www.sterlingbirds.com

On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Noah Arthur via Groups.Io <semirelicta=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I completely agree with this... I have always thought the East Bay birding community is stunted because of the draconian rules on EBB-Sightings. For example, the ban on posting events has been what’s stopped me from leading informal gull and shorebird field trips in the East Bay. I do that in the North Bay specifically because the East Bay Listserve doesn’t allow the announcements.
Oh and I saw a Hermit Thrush in the yard today.
Noah Arthur (Oakland)



On Friday, March 6, 2020, 10:46:28 AM PST, Bruce Mast <cathrasher4@...> wrote:

Hear hear! I too am rather frustrated with the draconian limits on bird
sighting-related correspondence.

Btw, just saw a turkey vulture over 4th Street in Berkeley. Poor habitat
for a vulture.

Bruce Mast
Oakland

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly a
momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post here,
if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
about...

I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and questions
about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here, publicly,
where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have received
about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one group
allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as long
as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID, distribution,
further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?

As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the aptly
named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found, which I
still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to respond
directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to adopt
(bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly entailing
the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am one
of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
EBB-Discussion.

I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a poll
(it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform. One
particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active member of
our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community. What
happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss and,
dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our community!
Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this group
into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between eBird
and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported here
via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
*please
*keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution, to
demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders with
bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?

On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning list
of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly some
900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have not
joined EBB-Discussions.

And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is "listserv
shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to pay
attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye Regular
in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters here
who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes, and
I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just as
someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many have
chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes discussion
on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone about
fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem disappear
but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's 11
messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm the
average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)

I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a change
has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group was a
good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.

--Ethan







Maureen Lahiff
 

Golden Gate Audubon hosts a chat group at groups.io for more general discussion.
We do suggest reporting sightings to the relevant local group.

GGAS-Chat@groups.io

We do hold an individual's first posting for moderation, but not every post.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Sterling <jsterling@...>
To: semirelicta <semirelicta@...>
Cc: Ethan Monk <z.querula@...>; Bruce Mast <cathrasher4@...>; EBB-Sightings <EBB-Sightings@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Mar 6, 2020 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [EBB-Sightings] My first of today kinglet...and more not bird related :0

I run the countybirders list and have very open policies regarding postings. Feel free to post about personal birding items for sale, classes and other events, bird sightings, requests for information on species distribution, natural history, status, and other topics relevant to birding culture in all of California. I see no need to impede anyone from making a post that is useful to at least someone in the group. I’ve never had to put anyone on moderated status, ban anyone or deal with ridiculous threads. About ten or so years ago, a couple of non-birding spammers infiltrated the list, but those were dealt with. No problems since.

As has been noted from others over the past decades, if you don’t want to read a post, you can delete it.

Also, I run a WhatsApp group for Yolo Birding (also deals with good birds in Solano/Sacramento area). If you want to join, send me your name and phone number in a WhatsApp text and I’ll add you.


John Sterling
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

26 Palm Ave
Woodland, CA 95695

PO Box 1653
Woodland, CA 95776A

530 908-3836
jsterling@...
www.sterlingbirds.com

On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Noah Arthur via Groups.Io <semirelicta=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I completely agree with this... I have always thought the East Bay birding community is stunted because of the draconian rules on EBB-Sightings. For example, the ban on posting events has been what’s stopped me from leading informal gull and shorebird field trips in the East Bay. I do that in the North Bay specifically because the East Bay Listserve doesn’t allow the announcements.
Oh and I saw a Hermit Thrush in the yard today.
Noah Arthur (Oakland)



    On Friday, March 6, 2020, 10:46:28 AM PST, Bruce Mast <cathrasher4@...> wrote:

Hear hear! I too am rather frustrated with the draconian limits on bird
sighting-related correspondence.

Btw, just saw a turkey vulture over 4th Street in Berkeley. Poor habitat
for a vulture.

Bruce Mast
Oakland

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly a
momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post here,
if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
about...

I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and questions
about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here, publicly,
where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have received
about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one group
allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as long
as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID, distribution,
further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?

As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the aptly
named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found, which I
still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to respond
directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to adopt
(bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly entailing
the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am one
of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
EBB-Discussion.

I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a poll
(it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform. One
particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active member of
our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community. What
happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss and,
dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our community!
Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this group
into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between eBird
and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported here
via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
*please
*keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution, to
demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders with
bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?

On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning list
of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly some
900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have not
joined EBB-Discussions.

And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is "listserv
shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to pay
attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye Regular
in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters here
who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes, and
I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just as
someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many have
chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes discussion
on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone about
fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem disappear
but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's 11
messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm the
average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)

I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a change
has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group was a
good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.

--Ethan







corinnelouise paff
 

the rigid limits imposed on EBB  are frustrating..
I miss the old list that was a richer resource that went
beyond the simplistic "I saw a ___bird at ___"
please  loosen up.. Corinne Greenberg

tomcrown1@...
 

I see both sides of the argument. When I lived in San Francisco I reported seeing a blue throated gray warbler. 

I was rebutted until someone else who I guess folks thought was more thrust worthy made the same report. 

Maybe the moderator of this group is trying to allow others to post without being put down?

I know do most of my posting on California birds on Facebook because I can post pictures of the bird. Should I not ID the bird correctly I am told were I went wrong thus it’s a learning experience. I don’t know why bird pictures can’t be posted on the sighting list 



On Mar 7, 2020, at 10:55 AM, corinnelouise paff via Groups.Io <corinnelouisedesign@...> wrote:


the rigid limits imposed on EBB  are frustrating..
I miss the old list that was a richer resource that went
beyond the simplistic "I saw a ___bird at ___"
please  loosen up.. Corinne Greenberg

tracy_farrington
 

To John Sterling, and others.
The open policy that John describes is both welcoming, and sensible. The strictures apparently put in place by EBB-Sightings are not helpful and, in fact, are
counter-productive to both the enjoyment and information sharing that is fundamental to birding. ID, status, distribution, natural history...these, and related topics,
should always be part of the discussion.

Strick adherence to a "list only observation" policy both restricts, and for that matter, negates the above ideals. 

Good birding, all, this early Spring.
Tracy Farrington
Walnut Creek 




On Friday, March 6, 2020, 12:56:26 PM PST, John Sterling <jsterling@...> wrote:


I run the countybirders list and have very open policies regarding postings. Feel free to post about personal birding items for sale, classes and other events, bird sightings, requests for information on species distribution, natural history, status, and other topics relevant to birding culture in all of California. I see no need to impede anyone from making a post that is useful to at least someone in the group. I’ve never had to put anyone on moderated status, ban anyone or deal with ridiculous threads. About ten or so years ago, a couple of non-birding spammers infiltrated the list, but those were dealt with. No problems since.

As has been noted from others over the past decades, if you don’t want to read a post, you can delete it.

Also, I run a WhatsApp group for Yolo Birding (also deals with good birds in Solano/Sacramento area). If you want to join, send me your name and phone number in a WhatsApp text and I’ll add you.


John Sterling
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

26 Palm Ave
Woodland, CA 95695

PO Box 1653
Woodland, CA 95776A

530 908-3836
jsterling@...
www.sterlingbirds.com

> On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Noah Arthur via Groups.Io <semirelicta=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> I completely agree with this... I have always thought the East Bay birding community is stunted because of the draconian rules on EBB-Sightings. For example, the ban on posting events has been what’s stopped me from leading informal gull and shorebird field trips in the East Bay. I do that in the North Bay specifically because the East Bay Listserve doesn’t allow the announcements.
> Oh and I saw a Hermit Thrush in the yard today.
> Noah Arthur (Oakland)
>
>
>
>    On Friday, March 6, 2020, 10:46:28 AM PST, Bruce Mast <cathrasher4@...> wrote:
>
> Hear hear! I too am rather frustrated with the draconian limits on bird
> sighting-related correspondence.
>
> Btw, just saw a turkey vulture over 4th Street in Berkeley. Poor habitat
> for a vulture.
>
> Bruce Mast
> Oakland
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:21 PM Ethan Monk <z.querula@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Today, I saw the first Kinglet I had seen since March 4th! It was truly a
>> momentous occasion. Now that I have fulfilled the requirement to post here,
>> if you wouldn't mind reading further, I have a few other things to talk
>> about...
>>
>> I have received several emails recently that echo my concerns and questions
>> about this EBB-Sightings/Discussion conundrum, and I figured it would be
>> best to bring these concerns of others and myself to light here, publicly,
>> where we can all weigh in (unless we are all banned from posting here, a
>> real possibility at this point). Concerning several emails I have received
>> about EBB-Sightings v. EBB-Discussion, I am a little confused about the
>> policies that exist here to segregate the two groups. To confirm, one group
>> allows for the reporting of current birds (no matter how important, as long
>> as the bird was seen past few days) but then the conversation must end,
>> period, end of story, full stop. Any further comments on ID, distribution,
>> further questions, history etc. must then be bounced to EBB-Discussion?
>>
>> As anyone who has ever been a member of any business, school, nonprofit
>> etc. in the past couple decades knows, when you wish to respond to an
>> email, you generally do not start a new thread to reply. You use the aptly
>> named "reply" button to, well, reply. The same should apply here, no? If
>> someone writes a post about a female Mountain Bluebird they found, which I
>> still need for the county (and would be a cool bird regardless of its
>> tick-ability) I would think it would be considered appropriate to respond
>> directly to their email to ask how they told their bird apart from a
>> Western Bluebird. Instead, the listserv rules we have been forced to adopt
>> (bit of an oxymoron, that one) dictate that we must instead politely
>> question that ID in a listserv with 900 fewer readers, possibly entailing
>> the original reporter does not even receive the message. I, myself, am one
>> of the 900 members here on EBB-Sightings who is not a member of
>> EBB-Discussion.
>>
>> I have not been a member of these listservs for the longest time, but I
>> remember the time when we were on Yahoo. About the time Yahoo messages
>> started to stall and not come through for hours on end, we sent out a poll
>> (it turned out to be more like 3-4 polls) to see if we should join the
>> other couple groups.io bird listserves in the state on this platform. One
>> particularly convincing argument I remember reading was by Colin Meusel,
>> who now lives in the North Bay I hear, but was then a very active member of
>> our community. He cited the Yahoo Groups as a place more than eBird; to
>> discuss ID and distribution and wider topics together as a community. What
>> happened to this free spirited form of a group where we could discuss and,
>> dare I say it, even *vote* on what direction we would take our community!
>> Then suddenly out of the sky came new rules that aimed to make this group
>> into a glorified eBird. I have almost no point for this group between eBird
>> and my phone if we aren't allowed to discuss things other than
>> rare/uncommon birds: I find out about most of the rare birds reported here
>> via. text generally before I get the email, anyways (that being said
>> *please
>> *keep reporting rare birds here, regardless). As well, does it not seem
>> antithetical to Audubon, sponsors and creators of the Christmas Bird
>> Counts, a fantastic endeavor in citizen science and bird distribution, to
>> demote questions concerning bird distribution and helping new birders with
>> bird ID to a secondary, lesser forum?
>>
>> On another note there is the argument of those who simply don't have the
>> time or just don't want to add yet another group to their burgeoning list
>> of listservs. While not the most compelling argument at first glance, it
>> makes sense when you consider that anything rare or out of the ordinary
>> will not be posted to EBB-Discussions, as it will all be here. Clearly some
>> 900 subscribers of this list think somewhere along these lines and have not
>> joined EBB-Discussions.
>>
>> And finally, what I want to avoid here more than anything else is "listserv
>> shame" where members feel reluctant to post because they are worried of
>> being shot down and challenged over trivial grounds they neglected to pay
>> attention to before pressing send on that "Are Barrow's Goldeneye Regular
>> in the County Anymore?" email, as has happened on overly restrictive
>> listserves in other parts of California. I have even talked to posters here
>> who have begun to feel the same. I get the rationale for these changes, and
>> I sometimes get annoyed by the "First of Summer, Barn Swallow!" reports
>> sent in June, but I can choose what messages to selectively read, just as
>> someone here was able to choose to not read any S&d posts, and as many have
>> chosen not to read this novel I've written. And, yes, sometimes discussion
>> on the old yahoo groups could feel overwhelming after reading all 20
>> one-sentence replies to the same post, but I'm not sure we have gone about
>> fixing this problem the right way. Yes, we have made the problem disappear
>> but also with the side effect of stifling much of our conversations. A
>> thread can be closed after 8-9 replies, but let's not close it before it
>> gets even one! And rest assured, I'm sure adding the discussion group's 11
>> messages so far this year to EBB-Sightings will not suddenly overwhelm the
>> average reader. (Oh no, what a deluge will be pouring into my inbox! 1
>> whole new email a week!! My inbox organization will go down the drain!)
>>
>> I firmly believe that experimentation and change are generally positive
>> catalysts, yet I think we also need to be able to recognize when a change
>> has hurt more than it has helped: The segregation of this email group was a
>> good experiment, but I think it is time that we lock this one up in the
>> archives of time, and move on as one cohesive list.
>>
>> --Ethan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>