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VK9NC not Norfolk?

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

Björn SM7IUN

Robie
 

Cocos here also,

Robie - AJ4F

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:27 PM Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN <bjorn@...> wrote:
DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

Björn SM7IUN

Tim N3XX
 

I see the same here, and I found that any VK9 callsign with VK9 followed by any letter preceding the letter C will identify the entity as Cocos (Keeling) Islands. Problem in the DXCC database?

I fixed the problem by adding an override for VK9NC with the entity of Norfolk Island.

73,
Tim - N3XX

On 2019-10-18 9:26 AM, Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN wrote:
DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?
Björn SM7IUN

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Kurt Ekman
 

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Dave AA6YQ
Skickat: fredag 18 oktober 2019 18:30
Till: DXLab@groups.io
Ämne: Re: [DXLab] VK9NC not Norfolk?

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

 

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

 

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

 

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

 

    73,

 

         Dave, AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have 
switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc. 

Björn


Den fre 18 okt. 2019 kl 17:52 skrev Kurt Ekman <kurre.ekman@...>:

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Dave AA6YQ
Skickat: fredag 18 oktober 2019 18:30
Till: DXLab@groups.io
Ämne: Re: [DXLab] VK9NC not Norfolk?

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

 

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

 

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

 

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

 

    73,

 

         Dave, AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc.

+ If you point me at documentation of this policy change, I will update DXView accordingly.

+ DXView's override mechanism provides a way to handle this inconsistency/ambiguity.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 08:51 AM, Kurt Ekman wrote:

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

+ When you enter a callsign into DXView's Main window and strike the Enter key, it consults your Override List, DXLab's USAP database (for callsigns issued by the US Federal Communications Commission), and DXLab's DXCC database to determine the callsign's location; this includes applying rules like "a VK9 callsign's 5th character determines its DXCC entity".

+ When you enter a callsign into DXKeeper's Capture window and strike the Enter key, additional sources of information are considered as a function of the settings you have enabled: previously logged QSOs with the callsign, and the location information reported by a callbook lookup. These additional sources may also be considered when you enter a callsign into the "Log QSOs" tab of DXKeeper's Main window, or the "QSO Info" panel on WinWarbler's Main window.

      73,

            Dave, AA6YQ

 

N1BUG
 

On 10/18/19 4:35 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the
Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using > the
fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ,
VK9NC etc.
Actually I believe there has been a change. I recall many years ago
having correspondence with you about this, Dave, after I found
information describing the then current situation. At that time, if
it was a two letter suffix, then the first letter of the suffix
denoted the DXCC entity; if it was a three letter suffix then the
second letter denoted the DXCC entity.

I seem to recall more recently it was announced that that VK9 call
signs would no longer be issued according to the old rules and that
it would no longer be possible to determine the DXCC entity based on
a VK9 callsign. This is the most current information I can find at
the moment:

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

See the last paragraph. I will see if I can find anything more recent.

73,
Paul N1BUG

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

Thanks Dave,

I am not aware of any documentation either way. But judging from the call signs of the past 
few years activations it seems to be the fourth character that determines the DXCC entity.

The fact that neither Big CTY nor Club Log offer an exception/override to me suggests there 
is an actual rule. 

Club Log considers any VK9 call to be Norfolk except those that have C (Cocos), L (Lord Howe), 
M (Mellish), W (Willis) or X (Christmas) as the fourth character. From where Mike got this information, 
I do not know. I will ask him. I am already in contact with him through my work with the DXLog Live 
Stream gateway for Club Log. 

Björn


Den fre 18 okt. 2019 kl 22:35 skrev Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...>:

+ AA6YQ comments below

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc.

+ If you point me at documentation of this policy change, I will update DXView accordingly.

+ DXView's override mechanism provides a way to handle this inconsistency/ambiguity.

          73,

                 Dave, AA6YQ






Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

On 10/18/19 4:35 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the
Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using > the
fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ,
VK9NC etc.
Actually I believe there has been a change. I recall many years ago having correspondence with you about this, Dave, after I found information describing the then current situation. At that time, if it was a two letter suffix, then the first letter of the suffix denoted the DXCC entity; if it was a three letter suffix then the second letter denoted the DXCC entity.

I seem to recall more recently it was announced that that VK9 call signs would no longer be issued according to the old rules and that it would no longer be possible to determine the DXCC entity based on a VK9 callsign. This is the most current information I can find at the moment:

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

+ Thanks, Paul! Here's what the last paragraph says:

"Under the new provisions, all VK9 licensees, including overseas visitors, will be able to operate under the portable provisions of the Amateur Licence Conditions Determination in any External Territory or mainland state or territory. The issue about the callsign identifying the location, attracted the most interest. Callsigns allocated to amateur licences authorising operation in the External Territories will no longer contain a letter indicating a specific operating location. VK9 callsigns will continue to reflect the licence category (Advanced, Standard or Foundation)."

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I am not aware of any documentation either way. But judging from the call signs of the past few years activations it seems to be the fourth character that determines the DXCC entity.

The fact that neither Big CTY nor Club Log offer an exception/override to me suggests there is an actual rule.

Club Log considers any VK9 call to be Norfolk except those that have C (Cocos), L (Lord Howe), M (Mellish), W (Willis) or X (Christmas) as the fourth character. From where Mike got this information, I do not know. I will ask him. I am already in contact with him through my work with the DXLog Live Stream gateway for Club Log.

+ OK. Paul N1BUG just cited

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

+ which says

"Under the new provisions, all VK9 licensees, including overseas visitors, will be able to operate under the portable provisions of the Amateur Licence Conditions Determination in any External Territory or mainland state or territory. The issue about the callsign identifying the location, attracted the most interest. Callsigns allocated to amateur licences authorising operation in the External Territories will no longer contain a letter indicating a specific operating location. VK9 callsigns will continue to reflect the licence category (Advanced, Standard or Foundation)."

+ This is dated 2009-10-21.

+ Michael G7VJR operated from Norfolk Island a few years ago, and so may well have additional information.

+ If there's not a more recent policy announcement from ACMA, then all VK9 callsigns are ambiguous as to location, and will require overrides to be defined for an accurate location fix.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Dale Drake
 

I remember it the same way as Paul.

 

Dale,

AA1QD (Not VK9QD).

 

 

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2019-10-18 5:38 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
+ AA6YQ comments below
+ If there's not a more recent policy announcement from ACMA, then
all VK9 callsigns are ambiguous as to location, and will require
overrides to be defined for an accurate location fix.
The 2009 information from WIA/ACMA is the most recent to the best of
my knowledge. However, since *most* operations continue to request
calls that conform to the "old" '4th character' paradigm, the DXCC
Database maps VK9C = Cocos, VK9L = Lord Howe, VK9M = Mellish, VK9W =
Willis, VK9X = Christmas, and all other VK9 = Norfolk.

This appears to match what is done by both Clublog and AD1C's
CTY/Big CTY files although some of the "contest specific" CTY files
(issued before ARRL DX, CQWW, etc.) contain overrides for any
"nonconforming" calls announced for a given contest. However, since
the CTY format does not provide for start/end dates and callsigns can
be reissued for use from other entities, those limited duration
callsigns are not found in the BigCTY file and often disappear in
the next routine CTY file.

Dave, it seems to me that it would be safe to remove the "hard
coded" 'fifth character' check. I suspect the only time it would
be appropriate is for "Foundation class" licensees (e.g., VK9Fxxx)
and not likely to be encountered with serious DXPeditions.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-10-18 5:38 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
+ AA6YQ comments below
I am not aware of any documentation either way. But judging from the call signs of the past few years activations it seems to be the fourth character that determines the DXCC entity.
The fact that neither Big CTY nor Club Log offer an exception/override to me suggests there is an actual rule.
Club Log considers any VK9 call to be Norfolk except those that have C (Cocos), L (Lord Howe), M (Mellish), W (Willis) or X (Christmas) as the fourth character. From where Mike got this information, I do not know. I will ask him. I am already in contact with him through my work with the DXLog Live Stream gateway for Club Log.
+ OK. Paul N1BUG just cited
https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php
+ which says
"Under the new provisions, all VK9 licensees, including overseas visitors, will be able to operate under the portable provisions of the Amateur Licence Conditions Determination in any External Territory or mainland state or territory. The issue about the callsign identifying the location, attracted the most interest. Callsigns allocated to amateur licences authorising operation in the External Territories will no longer contain a letter indicating a specific operating location. VK9 callsigns will continue to reflect the licence category (Advanced, Standard or Foundation)."
+ This is dated 2009-10-21.
+ Michael G7VJR operated from Norfolk Island a few years ago, and so may well have additional information.
+ If there's not a more recent policy announcement from ACMA, then all VK9 callsigns are ambiguous as to location, and will require overrides to be defined for an accurate location fix.
73,
Dave, AA6YQ

Dave AA6YQ
 

* More AA6YQ comments below

> + AA6YQ comments below

> + If there's not a more recent policy announcement from ACMA, then > all VK9 callsigns are ambiguous as to location, and will require > overrides to be defined for an accurate location fix.

The 2009 information from WIA/ACMA is the most recent to the best of my knowledge. However, since *most* operations continue to request calls that conform to the "old" '4th character' paradigm, the DXCC Database maps VK9C = Cocos, VK9L = Lord Howe, VK9M = Mellish, VK9W = Willis, VK9X = Christmas, and all other VK9 = Norfolk.

This appears to match what is done by both Clublog and AD1C's CTY/Big CTY files although some of the "contest specific" CTY files (issued before ARRL DX, CQWW, etc.) contain overrides for any "nonconforming" calls announced for a given contest. However, since the CTY format does not provide for start/end dates and callsigns can be reissued for use from other entities, those limited duration callsigns are not found in the BigCTY file and often disappear in the next routine CTY file.

Dave, it seems to me that it would be safe to remove the "hard coded" 'fifth character' check. I suspect the only time it would be appropriate is for "Foundation class" licensees (e.g., VK9Fxxx) and not likely to be encountered with serious DXPeditions.

+ That makes sense, Joe. I'm going to wait to hear what Björn SM7IUN learns from Michael G7VJR about Club Log's handling of VK9 callsigns; though the change you suggest is straightforward, it must be applied to DXKeeper, DXView, and SpotCollector - so I'd like to do this exactly once.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Robert T
 


Bjorn,


You need to ad an over ride to the override list in  DXView.

Open DXView, select CONFIG, in the new window select the Override List tab.

At the bottom select NEW, this gives you a blank line to type in.

Type in the following: Your time zone will be different but the rest will be the same.

.



When you are done, Hit the SAVE button on the bottom.

You may need to restart DXView. 

Close it and reopen DXView.

VK9NC should now come up as Norfolk.


73'

Bob - K2RET

On October 18, 2019 at 9:26 AM "Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN" <bjorn@...> wrote:

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

Björn SM7IUN