Topics

Private: Re: [DXLab] monitor 60M for new DXCC

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
Why not just quote the FCC rules?
Part 97.303(h),
(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified
in the table below. In order to meet this requirement, control
operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions
(emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively)
may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as
specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator
150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency.
Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy
more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

60 M Band Frequencies (kHz)
Carrier Center
5330.5 5332.0
5346.5 5348.0
5357.0 5358.5
5371.5 5373.0
5403.5 5405.0
Part 97.303(h)(2),
(2) Amateur stations transmitting on the 60 m band must not cause harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations authorized by:
(i) The United States (NTIA and FCC) and other nations in the fixed service; and
(ii) Other nations in the mobile except aeronautical mobile service.
part 97.221(c)
(c) Except for channels specified in §97.303(h), a station may be
automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission
on any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided
that:
Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
*identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
Why not just quote the FCC rules?
Part 97.303(h), first sentence, and part 97.221(c), first sentence.
73,
Rich VE3KI
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Is this word for word from a rule or interpretive guideline (please
cite the reference), or your interpretation of something else? >
<Begin quote>:
The use of any of the 60 meter "channels" as a 3 KHz wide CW/digital
band or for ACDS (automatically controlled digital operations) is
*ILLEGAL* for *ANY* amateur station licensed by the United States.
<End quote>
The statement was my paraphrase of what ARRL have posted both on-line
at ARRL.org and printed in QST on multiple occasions. If you have a
disagreement, take it up with them.


Suffice it to say, while I personally follow the 1500 Hz approach,
and as a very active 60m FT8 operator with hundreds of qsos, 99% of
the USA stations I work are not transmitting on 1500 Hz exclusively,
nor am I aware of any enforcement actions taken against them.
I expect to see active enforcement of this rule (among others) as
the new Amateur Auxiliary (replacement for the old Official Observer
program but with designated enforcement authority from the FCC and
headed by Rudy Hollingsworth) gets up and running.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

N2TK, Tony
 

To get through my thick head, please clarify a point for me - Is there any frequency I can operate FT8 on 60M? If I am on 5.357 in data mode with my K3, do I have to operate exactly on 5.358.5? Or am I reading this wrong and I should not operate FT8 on 60M?
There are sure lots of US stations on FT8 on 60M. Are we all wrong and should not be on 60M with FT8?
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: DXLab@groups.io <DXLab@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:03 PM
To: DXLab@groups.io
Subject: Re: Private: Re: [DXLab] monitor 60M for new DXCC



On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
> Why not just quote the FCC rules?

> Part 97.303(h),

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in
the table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators
of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission
designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the
carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in
the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the
carrier frequency is set to the center frequency.
Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy more
than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.
>
60 M Band Frequencies (kHz)
Carrier Center
5330.5 5332.0
5346.5 5348.0
5357.0 5358.5
5371.5 5373.0
5403.5 5405.0
> Part 97.303(h)(2),

(2) Amateur stations transmitting on the 60 m band must not cause
harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations
authorized by:

(i) The United States (NTIA and FCC) and other nations in the fixed
service; and

(ii) Other nations in the mobile except aeronautical mobile service.
> part 97.221(c)

(c) Except for channels specified in §97.303(h), a station may be
automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on
any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided
that:
Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
*identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" - not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
Why not just quote the FCC rules?

Part 97.303(h), first sentence, and part 97.221(c), first sentence.

73,
Rich VE3KI

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Is this word for word from a rule or interpretive guideline (please
cite the reference), or your interpretation of something else? >
<Begin quote>:
The use of any of the 60 meter "channels" as a 3 KHz wide CW/digital
band or for ACDS (automatically controlled digital operations) is
*ILLEGAL* for *ANY* amateur station licensed by the United States.
<End quote>
The statement was my paraphrase of what ARRL have posted both on-line
at ARRL.org and printed in QST on multiple occasions. If you have a
disagreement, take it up with them.


Suffice it to say, while I personally follow the 1500 Hz approach,
and as a very active 60m FT8 operator with hundreds of qsos, 99% of
the USA stations I work are not transmitting on 1500 Hz exclusively,
nor am I aware of any enforcement actions taken against them.
I expect to see active enforcement of this rule (among others) as the
new Amateur Auxiliary (replacement for the old Official Observer
program but with designated enforcement authority from the FCC and
headed by Rudy Hollingsworth) gets up and running.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2020-01-19 6:14 PM, N2TK, Tony via Groups.Io wrote:
To get through my thick head, please clarify a point for me - Is
there any frequency I can operate FT8 on 60M? If I am on 5.357 in
data mode with my K3, do I have to operate exactly on 5.358.5? Or am
I reading this wrong and I should not operate FT8 on 60M?
To follow the rules as *written*, if you are operating on the channel
with a center frequency of 5358.5 KHz, you must operate on a carrier
frequency of 5337.0 KHz with an audio offset of 1500 Hz. In other
words, the FT8 (or FT4, or JT65, or JT9) "base" tone must be on
exactly 5358.5 KHz.

Admittedly, the FCC's own procedure will not result in transmitted
FT4, FT8, JT9 and/or JT65 signals being *exactly centered* in the
2.7 KHz "channel" since the 1500 Hz "offset" represents the lowest
tone and additional tones move up in frequency by the keying rate.
This means FT4 (4 tones spaced 20.833 Hz) is 1500 - 1583.3 Hz, FT8
(8 tones spaced 6.25 Hz) is 1500-1550 Hz, JT9A (4 tones spaced 1.736
Hz) is 1500 - 1515.6 Hz and JT65A (65 tones spaced 2.692 Hz) is
1500-1677.6 Hz. The asymmetry is small but is it certainly not
equivalent to multiple stations operating with audio offsets from
200 - 2700 Hz.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-01-19 6:14 PM, N2TK, Tony via Groups.Io wrote:
To get through my thick head, please clarify a point for me - Is there any frequency I can operate FT8 on 60M? If I am on 5.357 in data mode with my K3, do I have to operate exactly on 5.358.5? Or am I reading this wrong and I should not operate FT8 on 60M?
There are sure lots of US stations on FT8 on 60M. Are we all wrong and should not be on 60M with FT8?
N2TK, Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: DXLab@groups.io <DXLab@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:03 PM
To: DXLab@groups.io
Subject: Re: Private: Re: [DXLab] monitor 60M for new DXCC
On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
> Why not just quote the FCC rules?

> Part 97.303(h),

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in
the table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators
of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission
designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the
carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in
the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the
carrier frequency is set to the center frequency.
Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy more
than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.
>
60 M Band Frequencies (kHz)
Carrier Center
5330.5 5332.0
5346.5 5348.0
5357.0 5358.5
5371.5 5373.0
5403.5 5405.0
> Part 97.303(h)(2),

(2) Amateur stations transmitting on the 60 m band must not cause
harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations
authorized by:

(i) The United States (NTIA and FCC) and other nations in the fixed
service; and

(ii) Other nations in the mobile except aeronautical mobile service.
> part 97.221(c)

(c) Except for channels specified in §97.303(h), a station may be
automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on
any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided
that:
Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
*identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" - not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
Why not just quote the FCC rules?

Part 97.303(h), first sentence, and part 97.221(c), first sentence.

73,
Rich VE3KI

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Is this word for word from a rule or interpretive guideline (please
cite the reference), or your interpretation of something else? >
<Begin quote>:
The use of any of the 60 meter "channels" as a 3 KHz wide CW/digital
band or for ACDS (automatically controlled digital operations) is
*ILLEGAL* for *ANY* amateur station licensed by the United States.
<End quote>
The statement was my paraphrase of what ARRL have posted both on-line
at ARRL.org and printed in QST on multiple occasions. If you have a
disagreement, take it up with them.


Suffice it to say, while I personally follow the 1500 Hz approach,
and as a very active 60m FT8 operator with hundreds of qsos, 99% of
the USA stations I work are not transmitting on 1500 Hz exclusively,
nor am I aware of any enforcement actions taken against them.
I expect to see active enforcement of this rule (among others) as the
new Amateur Auxiliary (replacement for the old Official Observer
program but with designated enforcement authority from the FCC and
headed by Rudy Hollingsworth) gets up and running.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

Ken Meinken
 

It was hard for me to find actual up to date FCC regs but I finally did and (no surprise) Joe is right (thanks).  Legal U.S. FT8 operation requires us to transmit with our audio centered on 1500 Hz only

Of course most DX stations do not have that restriction, so they can be anywhere and we can work them.

73, Ken WA8JXM


On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 8:30 PM Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@...> wrote:
On 2020-01-19 6:14 PM, N2TK, Tony via Groups.Io wrote:
> To get through my thick head, please clarify a point for me - Is
> there any frequency I can operate FT8 on 60M? If I am on 5.357 in
> data mode with my K3, do I have to operate exactly on 5.358.5? Or am
> I reading this wrong and I should not operate FT8 on 60M?
To follow the rules as *written*, if you are operating on the channel
with a center frequency of 5358.5 KHz, you must operate on a carrier
frequency of 5337.0 KHz with an audio offset of 1500 Hz.  In other
words, the FT8 (or FT4, or JT65, or JT9) "base" tone must be on
exactly 5358.5 KHz.

Admittedly, the FCC's own procedure will not result in transmitted
FT4, FT8, JT9 and/or JT65 signals being *exactly centered* in the
2.7 KHz "channel" since the 1500 Hz "offset" represents the lowest
tone and additional tones move up in frequency by the keying rate.
This means FT4 (4 tones spaced 20.833 Hz) is 1500 - 1583.3 Hz, FT8
(8 tones spaced 6.25 Hz) is 1500-1550 Hz, JT9A (4 tones spaced 1.736
Hz) is 1500 - 1515.6 Hz and JT65A (65 tones spaced 2.692 Hz) is
1500-1677.6 Hz. The asymmetry is small but is it certainly not
equivalent to multiple stations operating with audio offsets from
200 - 2700 Hz.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-01-19 6:14 PM, N2TK, Tony via Groups.Io wrote:
> To get through my thick head, please clarify a point for me - Is there any frequency I can operate FT8 on 60M? If I am on 5.357 in data mode with my K3, do I have to operate exactly on 5.358.5? Or am I reading this wrong and I should not operate FT8 on 60M?
> There are sure lots of US stations on FT8 on 60M. Are we all wrong and should not be on 60M with FT8?
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DXLab@groups.io <DXLab@groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:03 PM
> To: DXLab@groups.io
> Subject: Re: Private: Re: [DXLab] monitor 60M for new DXCC
>
>
>
> On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
>   > Why not just quote the FCC rules?
>
>   > Part 97.303(h),
>
>> (h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
>> stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in
>> the table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators
>> of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission
>> designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the
>> carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in
>> the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the
>> carrier frequency is set to the center frequency.
>> Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy more
>> than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.
>   >
>> 60 M Band Frequencies (kHz)
>> Carrier     Center
>> 5330.5      5332.0
>> 5346.5      5348.0
>> 5357.0      5358.5
>> 5371.5      5373.0
>> 5403.5      5405.0
>
>   > Part 97.303(h)(2),
>
>> (2) Amateur stations transmitting on the 60 m band must not cause
>> harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations
>> authorized by:
>>
>> (i) The United States (NTIA and FCC) and other nations in the fixed
>> service; and
>>
>> (ii) Other nations in the mobile except aeronautical mobile service.
>
>   > part 97.221(c)
>
>> (c) Except for channels specified in §97.303(h), a station may be
>> automatically controlled while transmitting a RTTY or data emission on
>> any other frequency authorized for such emission types provided
>> that:
>
> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" - not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>
> 73,
>
>      ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2020-01-16 3:50 PM, ve3ki wrote:
>> Why not just quote the FCC rules?
>>
>> Part 97.303(h), first sentence, and part 97.221(c), first sentence.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is this word for word from a rule or interpretive guideline (please
>>>> cite the reference), or your interpretation of something else? >
>>>
>>>> <Begin quote>:
>>>> The use of any of the 60 meter "channels" as a 3 KHz wide CW/digital
>>>> band or for ACDS (automatically controlled digital operations) is
>>>> *ILLEGAL* for *ANY* amateur station licensed by the United States.
>>>> <End quote>
>>>
>>> The statement was my paraphrase of what ARRL have posted both on-line
>>> at ARRL.org and printed in QST on multiple occasions. If you have a
>>> disagreement, take it up with them.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Suffice it to say, while I personally follow the 1500 Hz approach,
>>>> and as a very active 60m FT8 operator with hundreds of qsos, 99% of
>>>> the USA stations I work are not transmitting on 1500 Hz exclusively,
>>>> nor am I aware of any enforcement actions taken against them.
>>>
>>> I expect to see active enforcement of this rule (among others) as the
>>> new Amateur Auxiliary (replacement for the old Official Observer
>>> program but with designated enforcement authority from the FCC and
>>> headed by Rudy Hollingsworth) gets up and running.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>