DXCC Submission utter confusion


N1BUG
 

I hope someone can either help me or we can determine once and for all that I lack the mental capacity to handle DXCC submissions. I have been working 40 years on qualifying for awards and hate to give up, but I am just about at that point.

Background:
In 2016 I attempted to submit my first DXCC application. I got into trouble trying to select QSOs to be included on LoTW to make them match the list selected by DXKeeper. Nobody could figure out where I went wrong. ARRL felt bad for me and ended up submitting an application for me and waving LoTW credit fees. That meant the submission contained a different set of QSLs than DXKeeper would have had me use, and after ARRL processed the application I had to download my DXCC credits and let DXKeeper update accordingly.

Now I am trying to do another application and running into the same mess. I started here:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

All seemed to go well up to step 5. The LoTW Record Sheet generated by DXeeper makes sense BUT it is sorted in order of DXCC Enity name.

In step 6 I go here as instructed:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

After seeing in step 2 that the list is not the same as that proposed by DXKeper I try to perform the work flow here as directed:

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

But I cannot make any sense of this. I see no way to sort those in the same order as the DXKeeper LoTW Record sheet and there are so many of them I cannot possibly complete the work flow.

What am I doing wrong? Is there any simpler method of managing an application? It seems as though I simply cannot handle this complex process.

73,
Paul N1BUG


N1BUG
 

CORRECTION: I see that they appear to be sorted in the same order by entity name but there are just too many in LoTW for me to complete the work flow without MANY errors. I guess my days of persuing DXCC are over. Thanks anyway. I do love DX Lab!

Paul

On 7/27/21 11:56 AM, N1BUG wrote:
I hope someone can either help me or we can determine once and for all that I lack the mental capacity to handle DXCC submissions. I have been working 40 years on qualifying for awards and hate to give up, but I am just about at that point.
Background:
In 2016 I attempted to submit my first DXCC application. I got into trouble trying to select QSOs to be included on LoTW to make them match the list selected by DXKeeper. Nobody could figure out where I went wrong. ARRL felt bad for me and ended up submitting an application for me and waving LoTW credit fees. That meant the submission contained a different set of QSLs than DXKeeper would have had me use, and after ARRL processed the application I had to download my DXCC credits and let DXKeeper update accordingly.
Now I am trying to do another application and running into the same mess. I started here:
http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission
All seemed to go well up to step 5. The LoTW Record Sheet generated by DXeeper makes sense BUT it is sorted in order of DXCC Enity name.
In step 6 I go here as instructed:
http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission
After seeing in step 2 that the list is not the same as that proposed by DXKeper I try to perform the work flow here as directed:
https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/
But I cannot make any sense of this. I see no way to sort those in the same order as the DXKeeper LoTW Record sheet and there are so many of them I cannot possibly complete the work flow.
What am I doing wrong? Is there any simpler method of managing an application? It seems as though I simply cannot handle this complex process.
73,
Paul N1BUG


Steve Phillips - NS4P
 

I'm no expert, but I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.

Question - Are all the QSOs you want to use loaded and matched in LOTW?

If the answer is yes, I don't understand why you are using DX Keeper at all.  Why not just generate the application from LOTW?  (Awards - Select DXCC Account - Application)  You can select the awards you want to apply for, select the QSOs you want to use on the application, and submit your payment all on-line.


Jim Wysocki
 

Paul, you're mixing up two different processes.  One is the electronic submission of confirmations in your LotW account via your computer.  The second is the submission process for physical QSL cards, reviewed by a human being.  They operate differently.

For example, LotW is a computer program.  It doesn't care in what order the confirmation records are presented to it.  On the other hand, the card order does matter to a QSL Checker.

If you're applying for LotW electronic confirmations, then use one process.  If you're getting QSL cards reviewed by the QSL card checker, then use the other.  Either process is easy to use, as long as you don't mix them.

GL and 73,  Jim  W9FI


On 7/27/2021 8:56 AM, N1BUG wrote:
I hope someone can either help me or we can determine once and for all that I lack the mental capacity to handle DXCC submissions. I have been working 40 years on qualifying for awards and hate to give up, but I am just about at that point.

Background:
In 2016 I attempted to submit my first DXCC application. I got into trouble trying to select QSOs to be included on LoTW to make them match the list selected by DXKeeper. Nobody could figure out where I went wrong. ARRL felt bad for me and ended up submitting an application for me and waving LoTW credit fees. That meant the submission contained a different set of QSLs than DXKeeper would have had me use, and after ARRL processed the application I had to download my DXCC credits and let DXKeeper update accordingly.

Now I am trying to do another application and running into the same mess. I started here:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

All seemed to go well up to step 5. The LoTW Record Sheet generated by DXeeper makes sense BUT it is sorted in order of DXCC Enity name.

In step 6 I go here as instructed:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

After seeing in step 2 that the list is not the same as that proposed by DXKeper I try to perform the work flow here as directed:

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

But I cannot make any sense of this. I see no way to sort those in the same order as the DXKeeper LoTW Record sheet and there are so many of them I cannot possibly complete the work flow.

What am I doing wrong? Is there any simpler method of managing an application? It seems as though I simply cannot handle this complex process.

73,
Paul N1BUG






N1BUG
 

Jim,

That may well be. All I know is I keep starting at step one of a documented process, doing my best to follow step by step but I keep ending up in this situation that is not manageable for me. If there is a simpler way, I have not yet found it documented in a way that I absorbed. I'm sure the problem is just me. I am clearly missing something.

73,
Paul

On 7/27/21 12:35 PM, Jim Wysocki wrote:
Paul, you're mixing up two different processes. One is the electronic submission of confirmations in your LotW account via your computer.  The second is the submission process for physical QSL cards, reviewed by a human being.  They operate differently.
For example, LotW is a computer program.  It doesn't care in what order the confirmation records are presented to it.  On the other hand, the card order does matter to a QSL Checker.
If you're applying for LotW electronic confirmations, then use one process.  If you're getting QSL cards reviewed by the QSL card checker, then use the other. Either process is easy to use, as long as you don't mix them.
GL and 73,  Jim  W9FI
On 7/27/2021 8:56 AM, N1BUG wrote:
I hope someone can either help me or we can determine once and for all that I lack the mental capacity to handle DXCC submissions. I have been working 40 years on qualifying for awards and hate to give up, but I am just about at that point.

Background:
In 2016 I attempted to submit my first DXCC application. I got into trouble trying to select QSOs to be included on LoTW to make them match the list selected by DXKeeper. Nobody could figure out where I went wrong. ARRL felt bad for me and ended up submitting an application for me and waving LoTW credit fees. That meant the submission contained a different set of QSLs than DXKeeper would have had me use, and after ARRL processed the application I had to download my DXCC credits and let DXKeeper update accordingly.

Now I am trying to do another application and running into the same mess. I started here:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

All seemed to go well up to step 5. The LoTW Record Sheet generated by DXeeper makes sense BUT it is sorted in order of DXCC Enity name.

In step 6 I go here as instructed:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

After seeing in step 2 that the list is not the same as that proposed by DXKeper I try to perform the work flow here as directed:

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

But I cannot make any sense of this. I see no way to sort those in the same order as the DXKeeper LoTW Record sheet and there are so many of them I cannot possibly complete the work flow.

What am I doing wrong? Is there any simpler method of managing an application? It seems as though I simply cannot handle this complex process.

73,
Paul N1BUG





Steve Phillips - NS4P
 

Paul,

We are trying to help, but you need to provide more information.  Which of the following describes your situation?

Case A - You are making an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed in LOTW (i.e. no physical cards)
Case B - You are making an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed with physical cards (i.e. no LOTW confirmations)
Case C - You are submitting both LOTW confirmations and physical cards for DXCC credit.

Finally, what is the total number of QSOs we are talking about (in a round number)?

Steve 


DAVID BERNHEISEL
 

Which of the following applications is causing the confusion?


A

Online DXCC Application

Welcome to the ARRL DXCC online application system*.

*Be sure to review important DXCC application information before accessing Online DXCC.

Check your browser. For optimal user experience, please upgrade your browser to its latest version or use an alternative browser such as Firefox, Chrome, or Safari.

Be sure to pay CLOSE attention to your data entry. Check each entry to be sure you have entered the correct callsign, accurate date, band and mode and that you have selected the correct entity. Data mismatches will almost always cause a problem and may result in a QSO being rejected.

After completeing your online DXCC application, you may bring your cards and forms to a local DXCC card checker or send in the paperwork and cards to the ARRL DXCC Desk. Use the DXCC Card Checker Search to find a DXCC card checker.

If mailing cards to ARRL, package the cards securely, protect the cards from moisture, and use a trackable shipping method.


B


DXCC Award Application -- Part 1

Use this form to apply for a new DXCC award or an endorsement.

Entity QSO Check all
Clear all
Awards
Digital* 160M 80M* 40M* 30M* 20M* 17M* 15M* 12M* 10M* 6M Challenge*



Dave, N2DPF


Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below
I'm no expert, but I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.

Question - Are all the QSOs you want to use loaded and matched in LOTW?

If the answer is yes, I don't understand why you are using DX Keeper at all.  Why not just generate the application from LOTW? 

+ Because LoTW's DXCC submission generator is sub-optimal, and will therefore submit more confirmations than necessary, costing your more money than necessary. For a handful of confirmations, the difference is minimal, but if you are submitting hundreds or thousands of confirmations for DXCC Challenge, the difference can be significant.

+ The choice is straightforward:

A. Let LoTW choose the QSOs to submit. After your submission has been processed, direct DXKeeper to download your DXCC Credits and update your logged QSOs to reflect the newly-granted award credits. You might pay more than necessary, but process is automated.

B. Let DXKeeper assemble the submission, and then in LoTW choose the QSOs that DXKeeper picked but LoTW didn't - one at a time. After your submission has been processed, direct DXKeeper to with one mouse click mark all of the QSOs in your submission as having received DXCC award credit.


+ If you choose path A, steps 1-4 in

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

+ explain how to let LoTW create a submission. These instructions explain how to download your DXCC Credits and update your logged QSOs to reflect DXCC award credit granted after your LoTW submission has been processed:

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/ManageDXCCCredits

 

+ If you choose path B, steps 1-4 in

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

+ explain how to let LoTW create a submission, and step 5 explains how to modify that submission to match DXKeeper's submission. Yes, this is tedious. If LoTW provided an API that enabled DXKeeper to specify the QSOs to be submitted (as is done for QSL cards with "DXCC Online"), the entire "path B" process could be automated; sadly, the prospects for adding such an API are negligible, as the ARRL no longer has developers that are familiar with LoTW internals, and the ARRL CEO is advocating a multi-year project to replace LoTW with a new cloud-hosted implementation. 

+ If you consider the complexity of "path B" to be too great, use "path A" and accept the additional cost.

       73,

             Dave, AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Awards - Select DXCC Account - Application)  You can select the awards you want to apply for, select the QSOs you want to use on the application, and submit your payment all on-line.


N1BUG
 

Steve,

Case A. I am trying to make an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed in LoTW.

The idea is to include four all time new ones which would get me back on Honor Roll, to include several new ones on 160m, and to include LoTW confirmed QSOs for 6m and 2m.

DXKeeper selected 128 LoTW confirmed QSOs for this submission. That looked fine but when I got to the steps involving comparing this list to that selected by LoTW there were far too many to deal with in LoTW.

I think I had an incorrect URL in my first post. I started with "Generating an LoTW Submission" here:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

In step 6 that leads me to

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/SubmitLotW

Step 2 there leads me to

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

That is where I get lost trying to get the list in LoTW to match the list prepared by DXKeeper. LoTW has thousands of confirmed QSOs in its list. It would take days of work for me to do all the editing to get it down to the 128 DXKeeper selects. I keep thinking I must be missing a step, but I do not see where.

Paul

On 7/27/21 3:50 PM, Steve Phillips - NS4P wrote:
Paul,
We are trying to help, but you need to provide more information.  Which of the following describes your situation?
Case A - You are making an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed in LOTW (i.e. no physical cards)
Case B - You are making an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed with physical cards (i.e. no LOTW confirmations)
Case C - You are submitting both LOTW confirmations and physical cards for DXCC credit.
Finally, what is the total number of QSOs we are talking about (in a round number)?
Steve


Steve Phillips - NS4P
 

Paul,

Dave AA6YQ has provided the authoritative answer in his post.

But you are not wrong, If you want to submit the minimal number of QSOs that you need to meet your objectives (i.e. spend the least amount of money) you need to manually check or uncheck the QSOs in LOTW one at a time based on the list that DXKeeper generates.  This might take a while.

Your other choice is to just let LOTW pick which QSOs to submit.  You will pay more, but you will also be done in 10 much less time.


Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below
Case A. I am trying to make an application based exclusively on QSOs confirmed in LoTW.

The idea is to include four all time new ones which would get me back on Honor Roll, to include several new ones on 160m, and to include LoTW confirmed QSOs for 6m and 2m.

DXKeeper selected 128 LoTW confirmed QSOs for this submission. That looked fine but when I got to the steps involving comparing this list to that selected by LoTW there were far too many to deal with in LoTW.

I think I had an incorrect URL in my first post. I started with "Generating an LoTW Submission" here:

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

In step 6 that leads me to

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/SubmitLotW

Step 2 there leads me to

https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/dxcc-award-candidates/

That is where I get lost trying to get the list in LoTW to match the list prepared by DXKeeper. LoTW has thousands of confirmed QSOs in its list. It would take days of work for me to do all the editing to get it down to the 128 DXKeeper selects. I keep thinking I must be missing a step, but I do not see where.

+ What's missing is the LoTW API that would enable DXKeeper to send the 128 QSOs in it submission to LoTW to say "select these".

+ How many QSOs does LoTW select for submission?

    73,

           Dave, AA6YQ

 

 


N1BUG
 

Thanks for your help, Dave.

More comments below.

+ What's missing is the LoTW API that would enable DXKeeper to send the 128 QSOs in it submission to LoTW to say "select these".
I understand that but I wasn't prepared for such a large difference in the number of QSOs.

Merely as a personal comment: I am sure somewhere in the DXLab documentation what you explained earlier about the alternate, though potentially more expensive option is duly noted. However, I never found it or failed to understand. Had there been a note in the relevant portion of

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

explaining that the procedure can be tedious and noting an alternate method, that might have saved me a lot of time and frustration both in 2016 and in recent weeks.

I've had such a difficult time with this that when I finally get the easier procedure down and am sure it works for me, I will be writing my own personal "how to" on this for next time.

+ How many QSOs does LoTW select for submission?
LoTW did not appear to say, but it was at least several hundred. My impression was that it was well past a thousand.

73,
Paul N1BUG


Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below
Merely as a personal comment: I am sure somewhere in the DXLab documentation what you explained earlier about the alternate, though potentially more expensive option is duly noted. However, I never found it or failed to understand. Had there been a note in the relevant portion of

http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

explaining that the procedure can be tedious and noting an alternate method, that might have saved me a lot of time and frustration both in 2016 and in recent weeks

+ There wasn't, but there is now: I've expanded the "Generating an LoTW Submission" section of 

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

+ to describe and characterize the two alternatives.

       73,

               Dave, AA6YQ

 


N1BUG
 

+ There wasn't, but there is now: I've expanded the "Generating an LoTW Submission" section of
https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission <https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission>
+ to describe and characterize the two alternatives.
Looks good, Dave. Thanks.

I was able to complete my application using only LoTW. It was processed within a couple of hours. No problems downloading or linking DXCC credits in DXKeeper. This is the method that is right for me.

73,
Paul N1BUG


 

This is why those of us thst have tried DXLABS software love it……..

 Looks good, Dave. Thanks.

I was able to complete my application using only LoTW. It was processed 
within a couple of hours. No problems downloading or linking DXCC 
credits in DXKeeper. This is the method that is right for me.

73,
Paul N1BUG”


The support Dave provides us is Bar None !!!

And the DXLabs suite Rock!!!!!

Steve
KG5VK 


On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 5:54 AM N1BUG <paul@...> wrote:
> + There wasn't, but there is now: I've expanded the "Generating an LoTW
> Submission" section of
>
> https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission
> <https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission>
>
> + to describe and characterize the two alternatives.

Looks good, Dave. Thanks.

I was able to complete my application using only LoTW. It was processed
within a couple of hours. No problems downloading or linking DXCC
credits in DXKeeper. This is the method that is right for me.

73,
Paul N1BUG






--
Steve
KG5VK
Tele 318-470-9806
ARRL NTX Section Manager 
Please note: My Out Going Email address is LottsPhoto@...
KG5VK@... is forwarded to my Gmail address


Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I was able to complete my application using only LoTW. It was processed within a couple of hours. No problems downloading or linking DXCC credits in DXKeeper.

+ 100% of DXCC credits granted to LoTW confirmations will auto-link with no manual intervention.

This is the method that is right for me.

+ If you're happy, I'm happy!

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


N1BUG
 

+ 100% of DXCC credits granted to LoTW confirmations will auto-link with no manual intervention.
132 of 133 did in this case. The one that didn't was an unusual case in that I had logged two QSOs with the station, same band and mode but 8 minutes apart. The report said DXKeeper couldn't tell which QSO to link.

The QSOs were several years ago. I vaguely recall there was some unusual circumstance that caused me to work and log the station twice, but I cannot recall the details now.

There were a number of duplicate credits which needed no action but I did check to be sure the relevant QSOs were marked as verified in DXKeeper. I'm not sure why but assume it has something to do with LoTW oddities in selecting QSLs to include in a submission or possibly the fact that I had done a QSL card submission in 2016. I don't know whether LoTW is able to check my DXCC credits in order to be aware of those when choosing QSLs to submit. I didn't see any real problem, so I just assume this is "normal" considering the method(s) used to assemble all of my submissions.

73,
Paul N1BUG


Dave AA6YQ
 

# more AA6YQ comments below

+ 100% of DXCC credits granted to LoTW confirmations will auto-link with no manual intervention.

132 of 133 did in this case. The one that didn't was an unusual case in that I had logged two QSOs with the station, same band and mode but 8 minutes apart. The report said DXKeeper couldn't tell which QSO to link.

# I'd forgotten about that scenario.

The QSOs were several years ago. I vaguely recall there was some unusual circumstance that caused me to work and log the station twice, but I cannot recall the details now.

There were a number of duplicate credits which needed no action but I did check to be sure the relevant QSOs were marked as verified in DXKeeper.

# I've never understood why DXCC Records contain duplicate entries.

I'm not sure why but assume it has something to do with LoTW oddities in selecting QSLs to include in a submission or possibly the fact that I had done a QSL card submission in 2016. I don't know whether LoTW is able to check my DXCC credits in order to be aware of those when choosing QSLs to submit.

# When assembling a DXCC submission, LoTW does check your DXCC record to avoid submitting an LoTW confirmation for a counter that's already received DXCC credit for a submitted QSL card.

# In an earlier post in this thread, you reported that DXKeeper's DXCC submission generator identified 128 QSOs confirmed via LoTW to submit for DXCC award credit. LoTW chose 133 QSOs to submit. The cost of LoTW's suboptimal submission was 5 unnecessary confirmations submitted; at $0.12 per confirmation, that's $0.60.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ