Topics

Challenges with DXCC/Challenge submission using LOTW confirmations


Björn SM7IUN
 

In the past I have simply used the "check all" option in the LOTW web page and then pressed 
"Sync LOTW QSL" while holding down Ctrl. An increasingly time consuming process, but simple. 

This time I thought I should be a bit smarter and use the LOTW submission mechanics 
in DXKeeper. I selected "LOTW confirmation",  pressed "Assemble submission" and 
then "Create LOTW Record sheet".

Doing this I found two anomalies. 

The first is that the QSO are not listed in the same order. DXKeeper seems to do 
it from lower bands to higher. LOTW does something else.

This is not a big deal, but the second one is.

When comparing the QSO suggested by DXKeeper and the ones suggested by 
the "Application" page on the LOTW web server, I find that not the same QSO have been 
chosen to confirm the same bands and modes. In practice it does not make much difference if 
I confirm JX on 80m with a CW or FT8 QSO, but I don't feel good about marking the wrong 
QSO in DXKeeper with "V" (and for purely nostalgic reasons I always prefer using CW QSO to 
confirm a new band). 

But what makes things worse is that LOTW seems to select more than necessary QSL (financial incentives?). 

My QSO with JX2US, which is an entirely new DXCC entity for me, are:

JX2US 2020-10-13 20M CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40M CW
JX2US 2020-10-16 20M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-20 30M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-28 30M CW
JX2US 2020-11-08 80M CW
JX2US 2020-11-10 40M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-12 60M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-23 80M FT8

Below you will find how DXKeeper and LOTW treats the challenge of selecting the fewest QSO 
that fulfils the DXCC criteria for CW, Digital and DXCC Challenge:

DXKeeper LOTW Record sheet:
...
JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8
JX2US 2020-10-13 20m CW
...
Comment: A minimum size selection of QSO. I still find it strange that the 30m FT8 QSO 
was selected to confirm digital since the 20m FT8 QSO was at an earlier date. Perhaps 
it is because the search is done by band, going up.

LOTW:
...
JX2US 2020-10-16 20m FT8 for "20m"
JX2US 2020-10-28 30m CW for "30m"
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW for "40m"
JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW for "80m"
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8 for "Digital"
...
Comment: This seems to be by band, going down, but in other cases (e.g. my 80, 30, 17, and 
15m QSO with D2EB) other orders are used. As you can see one of the 30m QSL is in this case 
redundant since both 30m and Digital are confirmed without it. This must clearly be a defect. 

The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using different selection 
algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is difficult to use since the QSOs proposed 
by DXKeeper are not available for selection on the application webpage. 

Björn SM7IUN


Joe Subich, W4TV
 

The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using different selection algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is
difficult to use since the QSOs proposed by DXKeeper are not
available for selection on the application webpage.
Selections are not made on the "application" webpage.

Start by selecting *CLEAR ALL* on the application page. The go to
"My QSOs" page, select your DXCC account, search for Confirmations
(QSLs) from each station (or for each country), place a check mark
beside those QSLs DXKeeper has selected and click "Submit DXCC Credit
Changes".

This process will populate the "Application" web page with (only) those
QSLs selected by DXKeeper.

BTW, LotW simply selects confirmations on a "first received" basis.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-01-04 12:54 PM, Björn SM7IUN wrote:
In the past I have simply used the "check all" option in the LOTW web page and then pressed
"Sync LOTW QSL" while holding down Ctrl. An increasingly time consuming process, but simple.
This time I thought I should be a bit smarter and use the LOTW submission mechanics
in DXKeeper. I selected "LOTW confirmation",  pressed "Assemble submission" and
then "Create LOTW Record sheet".
Doing this I found two anomalies.
The first is that the QSO are not listed in the same order. DXKeeper seems to do
it from lower bands to higher. LOTW does something else.
This is not a big deal, but the second one is.
When comparing the QSO suggested by DXKeeper and the ones suggested by
the "Application" page on the LOTW web server, I find that not the same QSO have been
chosen to confirm the same bands and modes. In practice it does not make much difference if
I confirm JX on 80m with a CW or FT8 QSO, but I don't feel good about marking the wrong
QSO in DXKeeper with "V" (and for purely nostalgic reasons I always prefer using CW QSO to
confirm a new band).
But what makes things worse is that LOTW seems to select more than necessary QSL (financial incentives?).
My QSO with JX2US, which is an entirely new DXCC entity for me, are:
JX2US 2020-10-13 20M CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40M CW
JX2US 2020-10-16 20M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-20 30M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-28 30M CW
JX2US 2020-11-08 80M CW
JX2US 2020-11-10 40M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-12 60M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-23 80M FT8
Below you will find how DXKeeper and LOTW treats the challenge of selecting the fewest QSO
that fulfils the DXCC criteria for CW, Digital and DXCC Challenge:
DXKeeper LOTW Record sheet:
...
JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8
JX2US 2020-10-13 20m CW
...
Comment: A minimum size selection of QSO. I still find it strange that the 30m FT8 QSO
was selected to confirm digital since the 20m FT8 QSO was at an earlier date. Perhaps
it is because the search is done by band, going up.
LOTW:
...
JX2US 2020-10-16 20m FT8 for "20m"
JX2US 2020-10-28 30m CW for "30m"
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW for "40m"
JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW for "80m"
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8 for "Digital"
...
Comment: This seems to be by band, going down, but in other cases (e.g. my 80, 30, 17, and
15m QSO with D2EB) other orders are used. As you can see one of the 30m QSL is in this case
redundant since both 30m and Digital are confirmed without it. This must clearly be a defect.
The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using different selection
algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is difficult to use since the QSOs proposed
by DXKeeper are not available for selection on the application webpage.
Björn SM7IUN


Dave AA6YQ
 

Your report below is accurate, Björn:

1. LoTW's selection algorithm is suboptimal, submitting more confirmed QSOs than absolutely necessary. However, this is the result of poor programming, not a scheme to increase the collected submission fees.

2. The user must choose between employing DXKeeper's DXCC submission generator, which identifies the minimal set of QSOs to be selected, and then manually selecting each of those QSOs in LoTW, or submitting the QSOs chosen by LoTW, and then either manually setting "LoTW QSL Rcvd" to 'S' in each of those QSOs, or invoking a CTRL+"Sync LoTW QSLs" after the application has been processed and DXCC credit has been granted.

This is not a big deal for a handful of submitted QSOs, but for the DXer pursuing 5-band DXCC or DXCC Challenge and wanting to make an optimal submission of hundreds of new confirmations for DXCC credit, the task is tedious and unpleasant. Been there, done that.

The correct solution is for LoTW to provide an API that allows a logging application like DXKeeper to submit an ADIF file containing confirmed QSOs to be submitted for DXCC credit-- as can be done for QSL card confirmations using the ARRL's "DXCC Online", which DXKeeper directly supports:

<https://p1k.arrl.org/onlinedxcc/about.php>

Sadly, the ARRL's LoTW and DXCC systems are separate, and interoperate poorly. The DXCC system is ancient. In the fall of 2017, all LoTW development resources were re-assigned to work on upgrading the DXCC system after an attempt to outsource that upgrade failed; more than two years later, there is still no sign of an upgraded DXCC system, and LoTW's usability and functionality remain unimproved, other than Rick K1MU's continuing improvements to TQSL.

I have never been less optimistic about LoTW's future prospects than I am today. It's motto should be "grasping defeat from the jaws of victory".

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

-----Original Message-----
From: DXLab@groups.io [mailto:DXLab@groups.io] On Behalf Of Björn SM7IUN
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 12:54 PM
To: DXLab Reflector
Subject: [DXLab] Challenges with DXCC/Challenge submission using LOTW confirmations

In the past I have simply used the "check all" option in the LOTW web page and then pressed "Sync LOTW QSL" while holding down Ctrl. An increasingly time consuming process, but simple.

This time I thought I should be a bit smarter and use the LOTW submission mechanics in DXKeeper. I selected "LOTW confirmation", pressed "Assemble submission" and then "Create LOTW Record sheet".

Doing this I found two anomalies.

The first is that the QSO are not listed in the same order. DXKeeper seems to do it from lower bands to higher. LOTW does something else.

This is not a big deal, but the second one is.

When comparing the QSO suggested by DXKeeper and the ones suggested by the "Application" page on the LOTW web server, I find that not the same QSO have been chosen to confirm the same bands and modes. In practice it does not make much difference if I confirm JX on 80m with a CW or FT8 QSO, but I don't feel good about marking the wrong QSO in DXKeeper with "V" (and for purely nostalgic reasons I always prefer using CW QSO to confirm a new band).

But what makes things worse is that LOTW seems to select more than necessary QSL (financial incentives?).

My QSO with JX2US, which is an entirely new DXCC entity for me, are:

JX2US 2020-10-13 20M CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40M CW
JX2US 2020-10-16 20M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-20 30M FT8
JX2US 2020-10-28 30M CW
JX2US 2020-11-08 80M CW
JX2US 2020-11-10 40M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-12 60M FT8
JX2US 2020-11-23 80M FT8


Below you will find how DXKeeper and LOTW treats the challenge of selecting the fewest QSO that fulfils the DXCC criteria for CW, Digital and DXCC Challenge:

DXKeeper LOTW Record sheet:
...

JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8
JX2US 2020-10-13 20m CW
...
Comment: A minimum size selection of QSO. I still find it strange that the 30m FT8 QSO

was selected to confirm digital since the 20m FT8 QSO was at an earlier date. Perhaps it is because the search is done by band, going up.

LOTW:
...
JX2US 2020-10-16 20m FT8 for "20m"
JX2US 2020-10-28 30m CW for "30m"
JX2US 2020-10-15 40m CW for "40m"
JX2US 2020-11-08 80m CW for "80m"
JX2US 2020-10-20 30m FT8 for "Digital"
...
Comment: This seems to be by band, going down, but in other cases (e.g. my 80, 30, 17, and 15m QSO with D2EB) other orders are used. As you can see one of the 30m QSL is in this case redundant since both 30m and Digital are confirmed without it. This must clearly be a defect.

The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using different selection algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is difficult to use since the QSOs proposed by DXKeeper are not available for selection on the application webpage.


Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comnents below
with DXCC/Challenge submission using LOTW confirmations


The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using
different selection algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is
difficult to use since the QSOs proposed by DXKeeper are not available
for selection on the application webpage.
Selections are not made on the "application" webpage.

Start by selecting *CLEAR ALL* on the application page. The go to "My QSOs" page, select your DXCC account, search for Confirmations
(QSLs) from each station (or for each country), place a check mark beside those QSLs DXKeeper has selected and click "Submit DXCC Credit Changes".

This process will populate the "Application" web page with (only) those QSLs selected by DXKeeper.

BTW, LotW simply selects confirmations on a "first received" basis.


+ The above procedure is documented here:

"Submitting an LotW DXCC Application from the LotW web site"

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/SubmitLotW

+ This is "step 6" in

"Generating an LotW Submission"

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Björn SM7IUN
 

Thanks Dave,

much appreciated. I read through the documentation before writing my post but I keep forgetting about the wiki.

With over a dozen differences between what DXKeeper and LOTW proposes it will be a bit tedious but surely 
faster than downloading over 15,000 LOTW QSL.

I keep getting lost in the wiki since there is no link in the page to "go back to the index" and what you may 
think is the "index" https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki contains nothing. 

Given how great it is, I also think it would be nice to have a more visible link to the wiki on dxlabsuite.com.
Today you have to click "new users" and I stopped feeling like one years ago. 

Björn SM7IUN


Den mån 4 jan. 2021 kl 21:45 skrev Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...>:

+ AA6YQ comnents below
 with DXCC/Challenge submission using LOTW confirmations


> The bottom line is that with DXKeeper and the LOTW webpage using
> different selection algorithms, the "assemble submission" path is
> difficult to use since the QSOs proposed by DXKeeper are not available
> for selection on the application webpage.
Selections are not made on the "application" webpage.

Start by selecting *CLEAR ALL* on the application page.  The go to "My QSOs" page, select your DXCC account, search for Confirmations
(QSLs) from each station (or for each country), place a check mark beside those QSLs DXKeeper has selected and click "Submit DXCC Credit Changes".

This process will populate the "Application" web page with (only) those QSLs selected by DXKeeper.

BTW, LotW simply selects confirmations on a "first received" basis.


+ The above procedure is documented here:

"Submitting an LotW DXCC Application from the LotW web site"

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/SubmitLotW

+ This is "step 6" in

"Generating an LotW Submission"

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GenerateSubmission

       73,

              Dave, AA6YQ









Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I keep getting lost in the wiki since there is no link in the page to "go back to the index"

+ There's a link to "Getting Started with DXLab" at the bottom of each page, and a link to the Article Index at the top of "Getting Started with DXLab",

+ Also, there's a set of "recent history" links at the top of each Article, just above the tabs ("RecentChanges", "FindPage", "HelpContents").


and what you may think is the "index" https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki contains nothing.

+ https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki now contains the Article Index.

Given how great it is, I also think it would be nice to have a more visible link to the wiki on dxlabsuite.com.
Today you have to click "new users" and I stopped feeling like one years ago.

+ Corrected.

+ Thanks!

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


ND9G Mike
 

Thanks for the index page Dave.

I'm not sure how you have those tabs added, but if you then click on any of those other tabs (Recent Changes, Find Page, Help Contents), the MyStartingPage disappears and only comes back if you click on the icon to go back "home".


The help contents are quite thorough and contain a wealth of information, but I've always had difficulty finding things when looking for it. Sometimes I know just what I'm looking for, because I've been there more than a few times, and head there through the Getting Started (http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GettingStarted) section and going to the HTML docs for DXKeeper (or other application).

Most of the time I have found it more useful to go to Google what I'm looking for appended with DXKeeper and using that to find the relevant doc in the help section.

73,
Mike ND9G


On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 2:54 AM Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...> wrote:
+ AA6YQ comments below

I keep getting lost in the wiki since there is no link in the page to "go back to the index"

+ There's a link to "Getting Started with DXLab" at the bottom of each page, and a link to the Article Index at the top of "Getting Started with DXLab",

+ Also, there's a set of "recent history" links at the top of each Article, just above the tabs ("RecentChanges", "FindPage", "HelpContents").


and what you may think is the "index" https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki contains nothing.

+ https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki now contains the Article Index.

Given how great it is, I also think it would be nice to have a more visible link to the wiki on dxlabsuite.com.
Today you have to click "new users" and I stopped feeling like one years ago.

+ Corrected.

+ Thanks!

       73,

           Dave, AA6YQ







Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

Thanks for the index page Dave.

+ It contains the same information as

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/ArticleIndex>

+ which has long been available.

I'm not sure how you have those tabs added, but if you then click on any of those other tabs (Recent Changes, Find Page, Help Contents), the MyStartingPage disappears and only comes back if you click on the icon to go back "home".

+ As far as I know, those tabs are entirely controlled by the Wiki mechanism. I cannot make them appear or disappear, or control what pages they display.


The heLp contents are quite thorough and contain a wealth of information, but I've always had difficulty finding things when looking for it. Sometimes I know just what I'm looking for, because I've been there more than a few times, and head there through the Getting Started (http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GettingStarted) section and going to the HTML docs for DXKeeper (or other application).

+ There are search facilities provided at the top of every Article in the Wiki:

" You can also find goal-oriented articles via the FindPage tab in the upper-left corner of each Wiki page; when clicked, Title Search and Full-text Search capabilities become available; the FindPage tab also provides access to a TitleIndex and a WordIndex. Each article also provides Titles and Text search buttons in its upper-right corner."

Most of the time I have found it more useful to go to Google what I'm looking for appended with DXKeeper and using that to find the relevant doc in the help section.

+ Have you tried using the Wiki's built-in search facilities?

+ Searching the Article Index is also effective.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


ND9G Mike
 

+ Have you tried using the Wiki's built-in search facilities?

+ Searching the Article Index is also effective.

I have, with varying degrees of success, which is why I tend to just default to using what Google has indexed of the site and I tend to find what I'm looking for more quickly. That is just my experience though.



73,
Mike ND9G


On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:11 PM Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...> wrote:
+ AA6YQ comments below

Thanks for the index page Dave.

+ It contains the same information as

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/ArticleIndex>

+ which has long been available.

I'm not sure how you have those tabs added, but if you then click on any of those other tabs (Recent Changes, Find Page, Help Contents), the MyStartingPage disappears and only comes back if you click on the icon to go back "home".

+ As far as I know, those tabs are entirely controlled by the Wiki mechanism. I cannot make them appear or disappear, or control what pages they display.


The heLp contents are quite thorough and contain a wealth of information, but I've always had difficulty finding things when looking for it. Sometimes I know just what I'm looking for, because I've been there more than a few times, and head there through the Getting Started (http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/GettingStarted) section and going to the HTML docs for DXKeeper (or other application).

+ There are search facilities provided at the top of every Article in the Wiki:

" You can also find goal-oriented articles via the FindPage tab in the upper-left corner of each Wiki page; when clicked, Title Search and Full-text Search capabilities become available; the FindPage tab also provides access to a TitleIndex and a WordIndex. Each article also provides Titles and Text search buttons in its upper-right corner."

Most of the time I have found it more useful to go to Google what I'm looking for appended with DXKeeper and using that to find the relevant doc in the help section.

+ Have you tried using the Wiki's built-in search facilities?

+ Searching the Article Index is also effective.

         73,

              Dave, AA6YQ








Björn SM7IUN
 

Excellent. Thank you Dave.

Björn

Den tis 5 jan. 2021 kl 09:54 skrev Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...>:

+ AA6YQ comments below

I keep getting lost in the wiki since there is no link in the page to "go back to the index"

+ There's a link to "Getting Started with DXLab" at the bottom of each page, and a link to the Article Index at the top of "Getting Started with DXLab",

+ Also, there's a set of "recent history" links at the top of each Article, just above the tabs ("RecentChanges", "FindPage", "HelpContents").


and what you may think is the "index" https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki contains nothing.

+ https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki now contains the Article Index.

Given how great it is, I also think it would be nice to have a more visible link to the wiki on dxlabsuite.com.
Today you have to click "new users" and I stopped feeling like one years ago.

+ Corrected.

+ Thanks!

       73,

           Dave, AA6YQ