Date   
Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I am not aware of any documentation either way. But judging from the call signs of the past few years activations it seems to be the fourth character that determines the DXCC entity.

The fact that neither Big CTY nor Club Log offer an exception/override to me suggests there is an actual rule.

Club Log considers any VK9 call to be Norfolk except those that have C (Cocos), L (Lord Howe), M (Mellish), W (Willis) or X (Christmas) as the fourth character. From where Mike got this information, I do not know. I will ask him. I am already in contact with him through my work with the DXLog Live Stream gateway for Club Log.

+ OK. Paul N1BUG just cited

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

+ which says

"Under the new provisions, all VK9 licensees, including overseas visitors, will be able to operate under the portable provisions of the Amateur Licence Conditions Determination in any External Territory or mainland state or territory. The issue about the callsign identifying the location, attracted the most interest. Callsigns allocated to amateur licences authorising operation in the External Territories will no longer contain a letter indicating a specific operating location. VK9 callsigns will continue to reflect the licence category (Advanced, Standard or Foundation)."

+ This is dated 2009-10-21.

+ Michael G7VJR operated from Norfolk Island a few years ago, and so may well have additional information.

+ If there's not a more recent policy announcement from ACMA, then all VK9 callsigns are ambiguous as to location, and will require overrides to be defined for an accurate location fix.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

On 10/18/19 4:35 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the
Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using > the
fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ,
VK9NC etc.
Actually I believe there has been a change. I recall many years ago having correspondence with you about this, Dave, after I found information describing the then current situation. At that time, if it was a two letter suffix, then the first letter of the suffix denoted the DXCC entity; if it was a three letter suffix then the second letter denoted the DXCC entity.

I seem to recall more recently it was announced that that VK9 call signs would no longer be issued according to the old rules and that it would no longer be possible to determine the DXCC entity based on a VK9 callsign. This is the most current information I can find at the moment:

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

+ Thanks, Paul! Here's what the last paragraph says:

"Under the new provisions, all VK9 licensees, including overseas visitors, will be able to operate under the portable provisions of the Amateur Licence Conditions Determination in any External Territory or mainland state or territory. The issue about the callsign identifying the location, attracted the most interest. Callsigns allocated to amateur licences authorising operation in the External Territories will no longer contain a letter indicating a specific operating location. VK9 callsigns will continue to reflect the licence category (Advanced, Standard or Foundation)."

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

Thanks Dave,

I am not aware of any documentation either way. But judging from the call signs of the past 
few years activations it seems to be the fourth character that determines the DXCC entity.

The fact that neither Big CTY nor Club Log offer an exception/override to me suggests there 
is an actual rule. 

Club Log considers any VK9 call to be Norfolk except those that have C (Cocos), L (Lord Howe), 
M (Mellish), W (Willis) or X (Christmas) as the fourth character. From where Mike got this information, 
I do not know. I will ask him. I am already in contact with him through my work with the DXLog Live 
Stream gateway for Club Log. 

Björn


Den fre 18 okt. 2019 kl 22:35 skrev Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@...>:

+ AA6YQ comments below

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc.

+ If you point me at documentation of this policy change, I will update DXView accordingly.

+ DXView's override mechanism provides a way to handle this inconsistency/ambiguity.

          73,

                 Dave, AA6YQ






Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

N1BUG
 

On 10/18/19 4:35 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the
Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using > the
fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ,
VK9NC etc.
Actually I believe there has been a change. I recall many years ago
having correspondence with you about this, Dave, after I found
information describing the then current situation. At that time, if
it was a two letter suffix, then the first letter of the suffix
denoted the DXCC entity; if it was a three letter suffix then the
second letter denoted the DXCC entity.

I seem to recall more recently it was announced that that VK9 call
signs would no longer be issued according to the old rules and that
it would no longer be possible to determine the DXCC entity based on
a VK9 callsign. This is the most current information I can find at
the moment:

https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2009/20091021-1/index.php

See the last paragraph. I will see if I can find anything more recent.

73,
Paul N1BUG

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 08:51 AM, Kurt Ekman wrote:

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

+ When you enter a callsign into DXView's Main window and strike the Enter key, it consults your Override List, DXLab's USAP database (for callsigns issued by the US Federal Communications Commission), and DXLab's DXCC database to determine the callsign's location; this includes applying rules like "a VK9 callsign's 5th character determines its DXCC entity".

+ When you enter a callsign into DXKeeper's Capture window and strike the Enter key, additional sources of information are considered as a function of the settings you have enabled: previously logged QSOs with the callsign, and the location information reported by a callbook lookup. These additional sources may also be considered when you enter a callsign into the "Log QSOs" tab of DXKeeper's Main window, or the "QSO Info" panel on WinWarbler's Main window.

      73,

            Dave, AA6YQ

 

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc.

+ If you point me at documentation of this policy change, I will update DXView accordingly.

+ DXView's override mechanism provides a way to handle this inconsistency/ambiguity.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

LOTW system was built around PKI (Public Key Infrastructure), and initially was designed pretty secure (and thus hardly useable).

+ Your claim that PKI is "hardly usable" is demonstrably false. The LoTW database is DXView's Databases folder contains more than 130 thousand callsigns that use LoTW.

+ Yes, the initial implementations of TQSL and TQSLCert were difficult to use, with poor support for common usage scenarios, ambiguous and inconsistent terminology, confusing and erroneous error messages, latent defects, and no user documentation. Over the past 6 years, these two applications were combined into a single application with a reasonably modern user interface. A glossary was established to drive consistency across the user interface, error messages, and documentation. TQSL now provides direct support for frequent usage scenarios, simplifying "initial signup", and reducing callsign certificate renewal and most new callsign certificate requests to a few mouse clicks.

+ Critique of LoTW that is not specific to DXLab should be posted here:

<https://groups.arrl.org/g/ARRL-LoTW/messages>

+ Anyone can join the ARRL-LoTW group; ARRL membership is not a prerequisite.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

I noticed the same. VK9NA, VK9NP, etc. are all considered Norfolk.

I was not aware of the "fifth character" rule. It seems the Austrialian authorities since then have 
switched to using the fourth, considering many recent DXpeditions such as VK9MA, VK9CZ, VK9NC etc. 

Björn


Den fre 18 okt. 2019 kl 17:52 skrev Kurt Ekman <kurre.ekman@...>:

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Dave AA6YQ
Skickat: fredag 18 oktober 2019 18:30
Till: DXLab@groups.io
Ämne: Re: [DXLab] VK9NC not Norfolk?

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

 

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

 

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

 

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

 

    73,

 

         Dave, AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM, Stephen QRP wrote:

I will circulate this updated information to the many, who like me , thought electronic submission was not possible.

+ Many thanks for doing that, Stephen. This and support for WAZ were the last changes I pushed through before resigning from the ARRL's LoTW Committee back in 2017.

      73,

           Dave, AA6YQ

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Stephen QRP
 

Thank you Dave for your very helpful response.
I will circulate this updated information to the many, who like me , thought electronic submission was not possible.

With thanks.

Stephen
M0GWI

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Gene W3UA
 

It all goes to the authentication of the applicant. These days anyone can fake any electronic image, and send it from any fake e-mail address. Amazon and e-bay verify you through relying on the credit card issuer; medical appointment also can not be faked -- it's YOU who will be treated at the end of the day. But how LOTW would know, that some stranger is indeed the operator of that sacred Mount Athos station? LOTW system was built around PKI (Public Key Infrastructure), and initially was designed pretty secure (and thus hardly useable). Strong PKI expects that your private key is in YOUR possession, and can not be stolen. Apparently, ham radio world can not accept this level of security (who actually is willing to carry a smartcard, and connect it to your computer using a reader?). So, they allowed to store the private key on the computer... but they at least try to issue these private keys (which that call "certificates" -- I would not go into cryptographic details here). Long story short -- the verification procedure established by LoTW is not perfect, not very secure, but reasonable. If one wants LoTW services -- follow their rules. If you don't like their rules -- don't use them. eQSL uses less secure verification procedure -- that's why some don't like it and don't use it. The same is true with other services. Take hamlogs.net for example. If you don't use WWPass to log there -- you will not be able to upload your logs, but you can still get many "participation type" awards in PDF format just entering your (or somebody else's) call. Soon there will be new services (like real-time contest scoring) which would require serious verification to protect participants from hackers -- if you don't like it, then your score would not be considered valid in certain future contests. If you don't like it -- fine, just don't take part in these contests, but please, do not complain.
Sorry for this apparent off-topic, but I think it's relevant to logging because when you are going from local storage of your QSO data to some private resources, and these resources have specific requirements regarding information integrity, you should either consider these requirements or don't use these services. Another option -- contact the resource owners and discuss possible enhancements. They may listen to you, may not. But trust me, in most cases they spent a lot of time designing their systems, and usually have good reason to do what they do.
73 Gene W3UA

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Kurt Ekman
 

DX-Keeper logs VK9NE as Norfolk.

 

73,

Kurt OH1NJN

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: Dave AA6YQ
Skickat: fredag 18 oktober 2019 18:30
Till: DXLab@groups.io
Ämne: Re: [DXLab] VK9NC not Norfolk?

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

 

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

 

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

 

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

 

    73,

 

         Dave, AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

Re: eQSL sync

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

Hello, were any defects discovered with the investigation?

+ Yes. The defect has been corrected, a new version of DXKeeper has been sent to several ops who reported the defective behavior, and two of those ops have reported success. I'll make a public release when I'm certain that the defect has been corrected.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

+ Consistent with Australian policy announced many years ago, DXLab applications use the 5th character of VK9 callsigns to determine whether the station is on Cocos, Lord Howe, Mellish, Norfolk, Willis, or Christmas Island.

+ If VK9NC is on Norfolk Island, its callsign is inconsistent with this policy; you can compensate for this by defining an override:

<https://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CreateEntityOverride>

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

This is slightly off topic, for which I apologise.

I have have had many QSOs with North American hams who are members of LoTW.
Unfortunately I have not been able to log those contacts because LoTW makes it difficult for those of us in Europe to join.

I quote:

Non US stations will have to send a copy of your radio amateur operator permit and a copy of another identification such as a driver's license, passport or utility bill.

Send to:

ARRL LoTW Administrator
225 Main St.
Newington, CT 06111

Please, no electronic submissions. This must be postmarked from your location.

eQSL allows electronic verification submissions. My personal view is that LoTW should allow this , at least for those of us who live outside of North America.

+ Your quote above is long obsolete. As stated in <https://lotw.arrl.org/lotw-help/getting-started/> :

If your primary callsign was not issued in the United States, you have three options:

1. Email a copy of your Amateur Radio operating authorization and a copy of one other government-issued document that shows your name and address (for example, a driver's license or a utility bill) to the ARRL at: LoTW-help@... You may black out any sensitive information on the government-issued document, like a license number or account number. When the ARRL receives your documentation, it will send you an email message containing your LoTW Account Password, with your Callsign Certificate attached.

2. Present your documents in person to an in-country ARRL DXCC Card Checker, The Card Checker will inspect your documents and, if accepted, inform ARRL’s LoTW staff that that the applicant’s identity and license have been verified. The ARRL will then send you an email message containing your LoTW Account Password, with your Callsign Certificate attached. Do not email your documents to the Card Checker.
Not every DXCC entity has DXCC Card Checkers, and Card Checkers are not required to participate in this verification process. Thus you should contact an in-country Card Checker in advance to ask if they are willing to check your identity and license documents. A list of DXCC Card Checkers is here.

3. Mail a copy of your Amateur Radio operating authorization and a copy of one other government-issued document that shows your name and address (for example, a driver's license or a utility bill) to the ARRL. You may black out any sensitive information on the government-issued document, like a license number or account number. When the ARRL receives your documentation, it will send you an email message containing your LoTW Account Password, with your Callsign Certificate attached.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Tim N3XX
 

I see the same here, and I found that any VK9 callsign with VK9 followed by any letter preceding the letter C will identify the entity as Cocos (Keeling) Islands. Problem in the DXCC database?

I fixed the problem by adding an override for VK9NC with the entity of Norfolk Island.

73,
Tim - N3XX

On 2019-10-18 9:26 AM, Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN wrote:
DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?
Björn SM7IUN

Re: VK9NC not Norfolk?

Robie
 

Cocos here also,

Robie - AJ4F

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:27 PM Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN <bjorn@...> wrote:
DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

Björn SM7IUN

Re: eQSL sync

Steve W5GP
 

Hello, were any defects discovered with the investigation?

73, Steve W5SWG

VK9NC not Norfolk?

Björn Ekelund, SM7IUN
 

DXView seems to wrongly consider VK9NC to be Cocos Islands (VK9C). Is it just me?

Björn SM7IUN

Re: difficulty with LOTW upload

Stephen QRP
 

Hi Bill

Applying for membership electronically would be helpful. Perhaps I should stop at this point.
I have hijacked another members thread which is not cool and have said my 2 cents on applying for membership electronically .

73 Stephen
M0GWI