Topics

Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning

Paul C
 
Edited

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fluids, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with brake cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul

Herrick Bulger
 

Paul  I don't have an answer for you but I would like to know what the advantage is to using 
The 80 w 140 over  80w 90 ?  I'm looking to learn .  I hope you solve your problem soon .
 Thanks Herrick B


From: Crosley-Gang@groups.io <Crosley-Gang@groups.io> on behalf of Paul C <pcrane@...>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 4:20:57 PM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning
 

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fliuds, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with break cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul

PATRICIA GRITTI
 

Hi
Don't know the correct answers for your transmission challenges. After rebuilding my transmission I used STP engine treatment instead of oil. Got the STP tip when rebuilding my Model A transmission. The transmissions are similar in design. With the STP the Crosley shifts smooth and there are no leaks. Hope this tip works for you.
Don

On May 22, 2017 at 4:20 PM Paul C <pcrane@...> wrote:

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fliuds, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with break cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul

On May 22, 2017 at 4:20 PM Paul C <pcrane@...> wrote:

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fliuds, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with break cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul

James Dlapa
 

I was going to ask if anyone was running 600w ( like a model a)  Do to not having syncros and straight cut gears. 

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 5:12 PM PATRICIA GRITTI <donald-gritti@...> wrote:
Hi
Don't know the correct answers for your transmission challenges. After rebuilding my transmission I used STP engine treatment instead of oil. Got the STP tip when rebuilding my Model A transmission. The transmissions are similar in design. With the STP the Crosley shifts smooth and there are no leaks. Hope this tip works for you.
Don


On May 22, 2017 at 4:20 PM Paul C <pcrane@...> wrote:

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fliuds, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with break cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul


 

Butch
 

Paul,

Your transmission, is overfilled. There are no seals, in then Crosley/B-W T-92 transmission. There is a plug, on the side of the case, the gear oil needs to be NO higher than the bottom of that plug hole.

As far as oil, if you can find a lube, without sulfur in it (possibly the 600 oil), it would be better, as sulfur deteriorates brass/bronze and the transmission has brass/bronze bushings in it.

I PERSONALLY don't recommend using straight STP in it. The viscosity is WAY too high, using up precious horsepower, of which the Crosley is NOT, over-endowed with.

As a lot of folks on her know, I've rebuild a LOT of Crosley transmissions, just take it for what it's worth.

Butch

On 5/22/2017 4:20 PM, Paul C wrote:

Hello all.

I recently took the top of (1948) transmission that has sat idle for 50 years.  Goal was to drain fliuds, clean and inspect and put back together.  The good news was the gear oil was still intact, and all the internal gears look great!  I dumped old oil, and cleaned thoroughly with break cleaner to remove any particulates and dirt.   The top and bottom seem to have little wear and all teeth are there and in serviceable shape.

I put top back on with new gasket, and refilled with 85W140 gear oil...  Now, while sitting on cement floor, I have fresh gear oil weeping out both the front and rear spindles.

It didn't leak like this beforehand.

What did I miss?  A seal?  Is it just a bit overfilled?

If there isn't a seal of some type, doesn't gear oil always leak out even if the level drops below the shaft height?

And a separate question:  On the top, there is a 1/4 hole where I can look in and see the top "fork slider" shafts.  Should this be capped in some way?

Thanks fellas... New to all this.

Regards,

Paul



Virus-free. www.avast.com

Jim Bollman
 

Yep as Butch said over filled.

I use 140wt in my FOR and it does make shifting easier. Don't try and drive in cold weather. I took it out one clear January day just to say I did and couldn't figure out why I didn't have any power. It was about 10 degrees. I could not get it over 30 mph for the first few miles and then it slowly gained speed as the oil warmed up.

Herrick Bulger
 

Jim is 140wt sulphur free ? Where can you get it?     Thanks Herrick B.


From: Crosley-Gang@groups.io <Crosley-Gang@groups.io> on behalf of Jim Bollman <Jim@...>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:54:59 PM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning
 
Yep as Butch said over filled.

I use 140wt in my FOR and it does make shifting easier. Don't try and drive in cold weather. I took it out one clear January day just to say I did and couldn't figure out why I didn't have any power. It was about 10 degrees. I could not get it over 30 mph for the first few miles and then it slowly gained speed as the oil warmed up.

Jim Bollman
 

I have had it for a long time. I have known abut the sulfur problem for a long time so I assume it is sulphur free but I don't have a source. Many old cars have the problem so if the standard stuff you can buy at a auto supply has sulphur try some of the companies that supply the old car hobby. A quick look online and it looks like many/most/all modern gear oils are sulphur free.

Jim...

On May 22, 2017, at 10:02 PM, Herrick Bulger <htbulger@...> wrote:

Jim is 140wt sulphur free ? Where can you get it?     Thanks Herrick B.


From: Crosley-Gang@groups.io <Crosley-Gang@groups.io> on behalf of Jim Bollman <Jim@...>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:54:59 PM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning
 
Yep as Butch said over filled.

I use 140wt in my FOR and it does make shifting easier. Don't try and drive in cold weather. I took it out one clear January day just to say I did and couldn't figure out why I didn't have any power. It was about 10 degrees. I could not get it over 30 mph for the first few miles and then it slowly gained speed as the oil warmed up.
On May 22, 2017, at 10:02 PM, Herrick Bulger <htbulger@...> wrote:

Jim is 140wt sulphur free ? Where can you get it?     Thanks Herrick B.


From: Crosley-Gang@groups.io <Crosley-Gang@groups.io> on behalf of Jim Bollman <Jim@...>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:54:59 PM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning
 
Yep as Butch said over filled.

I use 140wt in my FOR and it does make shifting easier. Don't try and drive in cold weather. I took it out one clear January day just to say I did and couldn't figure out why I didn't have any power. It was about 10 degrees. I could not get it over 30 mph for the first few miles and then it slowly gained speed as the oil warmed up.

John Van Sickle
 

Tractor Supply has the correct transmission fluid in stock...

Herrick Bulger
 

John  thanks for the info . Would you know what it's called ?  Thanks again Herrick B.


From: Crosley-Gang@groups.io <Crosley-Gang@groups.io> on behalf of John Van Sickle via Groups.Io <crosleyjon@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 7:58:44 AM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning
 
Tractor Supply has the correct transmission fluid in stock...

Paul C
 

Thanks all.  I was hoping it was just overfilled (as I noticed it was a little high when closing it up).  Was just surprised at the seeping out both front and rear.

So, if no seals, doesn't sloshing gear oil leak during normal driving/usage then?  I can see the grease in the U-joint section keeping some of the leaking gear oil in check facing backwards, but oil seems like it would slowly leak forward into bell housing and then drip down.   Maybe not that significantly?


The 85W140 weight was chosen after seeing others recommend it on this message group to allow for quieter and smoother shifting.  I used the plain old Autozone brand gear oil.  I'll see if I can find the sulfur content and if its in there, I change it out to something else.  Thanks for the tip on this.

Any ideas on the open hole in the top of the transmission?  It's about 1/4 inch and I can look into it and see one of the sliding shafts for the shift forks.  There is a same sized access hole on the other side, but it seems plugged/capped.   I'd think back in the old days during rainy or winter use, water might seep in here, but that'd be unlikely now as these are mostly sunny day drivers.

Is it a breather hole?   Or should I put a dab of RTV in there to close out the dirt and water?

Thanks again everyone!   Hoping to get another Crosley back on the road this summer!  Been parked since 1967.

Regards,

Paul

Jim Bollman
 

Most/All Crosley transmissions leak a little, we say they are marking their spot. Mostly leaks out the rear of the transmission when properly filled and installed. Most oil ends up running down the driveshaft tube to the rear, so anytime you add oil to the transmission you should check the rear oil level to be sure it is not over filled or it will run out the axle shafts and possibly onto the brake shoes if the rear seals are not good.

Was just thinking no one answered the other part of your question. The hole is to give access during assembly to install poppets between the shifting rails to hold the forks in the proper gear. The poppets have a spring between them and are pushed in and then the shaft moved into place. Most people leave the hole open or just put a small cork in it. No sure what Crosley did originally.

Jim...

On May 23, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Paul C <pcrane@...> wrote:

Thanks all.  I was hoping it was just overfilled (as I noticed it was a little high when closing it up).  Was just surprised at the seeping out both front and rear.

So, if no seals, doesn't sloshing gear oil leak during normal driving/usage then?  I can see the grease in the U-joint section keeping some of the leaking gear oil in check facing backwards, but oil seems like it would slowly leak forward into bell housing and then drip down.   Maybe not that significantly?


The 85W140 weight was chosen after seeing others recommend it on this message group to allow for quieter and smoother shifting.  I used the plain old Autozone brand gear oil.  I'll see if I can find the sulfur content and if its in there, I change it out to something else.  Thanks for the tip on this.

Any ideas on the open hole in the top of the transmission?  It's about 1/4 inch and I can look into it and see one of the sliding shafts for the shift forks.  There is a same sized access hole on the other side, but it seems plugged/capped.   I'd think back in the old days during rainy or winter use, water might seep in here, but that'd be unlikely now as these are mostly sunny day drivers.

Is it a breather hole?   Or should I put a dab of RTV in there to close out the dirt and water?

Thanks again everyone!   Hoping to get another Crosley back on the road this summer!  Been parked since 1967.

Regards,

Paul
On May 23, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Paul C <pcrane@...> wrote:

Thanks all.  I was hoping it was just overfilled (as I noticed it was a little high when closing it up).  Was just surprised at the seeping out both front and rear.

So, if no seals, doesn't sloshing gear oil leak during normal driving/usage then?  I can see the grease in the U-joint section keeping some of the leaking gear oil in check facing backwards, but oil seems like it would slowly leak forward into bell housing and then drip down.   Maybe not that significantly?


The 85W140 weight was chosen after seeing others recommend it on this message group to allow for quieter and smoother shifting.  I used the plain old Autozone brand gear oil.  I'll see if I can find the sulfur content and if its in there, I change it out to something else.  Thanks for the tip on this.

Any ideas on the open hole in the top of the transmission?  It's about 1/4 inch and I can look into it and see one of the sliding shafts for the shift forks.  There is a same sized access hole on the other side, but it seems plugged/capped.   I'd think back in the old days during rainy or winter use, water might seep in here, but that'd be unlikely now as these are mostly sunny day drivers.

Is it a breather hole?   Or should I put a dab of RTV in there to close out the dirt and water?

Thanks again everyone!   Hoping to get another Crosley back on the road this summer!  Been parked since 1967.

Regards,

Paul

Paul C
 

So, I researched the "sulfur in gear oil" subject and found out some information that I'll share. 

The common categories/ratings of gear oil are GL1-GL6, with GL-4 and GL-5 being the most used today.  You will find that most gear oils will say that they are compatible with GL-3, GL-4, GL-5 categories.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil), the GL-4 mix has a lesser amount of EP (enhanced protection) additives (phosphorus, zinc, sulfur, molybdenum) than the new GL-5 mixes, which historically may make the GL-4 mix a better choice for the Crosley tranny.

Also, on the Wikipedia site I saw this:  "Also, transmissions which explicitly call for GL-4 oil may have been designed around this lower concentration of EP additives and thus may contain yellow metal parts which GL-5 will corrode", which tends to support the view that corrosion of the brass parts can occur when these additives are present (but not really...read on)..

But on another site i saw this from a so called expert:   "The phosphorus, zinc, sulfur, molybdenum, etc, used in the extreme pressure additives are bonded the the hydrocarbons and will never react with the metals. Part of the GL-5 rating is long term stability and non-reactivity. "

With such conflicting information, I keep searching and found this fantastic write-up that explains it all!

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

Give it a read if you are interested.. a very detailed write-up.  But for those that can't use the link, the summary is that It discusses that the EP (and sulfur) additives used in the past did cause corrosion, but that about 25 years ago, the additives were changed to remove the corrosive properties.   So, it's likely not an issue with today's modern gear oils with the GL-4 or GL-5 ratings. 

If you are still worried try to find a GL4 over a GL-5 rated gear oil if you wish, as that will have less of the sulfur (and other) EP additives.

A spot check of my local Autozone for gear oil yielded the following:

Exxon Superflo 80W-90: MT-1 and GL-5.

Valvoline Durablend: 80W-90: GL-5

Mobil-1: GL-5

Autozone (Coastal): GL-3, GL-4, & GL-5  (meaning it's a GL-5 oil)


Herrick Bulger
 

Many thanks to Paul C. For all his efforts in his research on the sulfur / gearoil issue .

seb fontana
 

To those who think a Crosley trans will shift smoother with heavier oil is right thinking but got to remember it will grind silly no matter what oil is used unless you double clutch..I use 600w Ford Model A oil and trans really shifts very well; if I double clutch..Seb..

Jaks
 

Inna Minnesota winter?

Jaks Phillips
papajaks@...


From: seb fontana via Groups.Io <speedoo51@...>
To: Crosley-Gang <Crosley-Gang@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 23, 2017 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Transmission weeping gear oil after cleaning

To those who think a Crosley trans will shift smoother with heavier oil is right thinking but got to remember it will grind silly no matter what oil is used unless you double clutch..I use 600w Ford Model A oil and trans really shifts very well; if I double clutch..Seb..

kirkbrit@...
 

I too have done research on this topic.  While makers claim backward compatibility, it is not necessarily so.  Eaton who make gears for heavy industrial applications, warned against GL5 for problems discovered either on Cat or Ford products.  GL4 is not easily found but GL5 grade does cause damage to yellow metal (copper base). 

CROSLEY19@...
 

that hole is to replace the shifter detent, and sring. It should have a cork in it. RTV will suffice.I have always used the Model A 600W gear oil in the Crosley trans. It shifts nicer, and doesn't tend to leak as bad. You can buy it online from any of the Model A parts vendors.
Barry

Paul C
 

Thanks for all the replies and advice.  Re-installation tomorrow!
Best,
Paul

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