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Question about installing new brake linings on a 47

David Reina
 

I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says” The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1” shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.” Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16” from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave

Butch
 

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave

David Reina
 

Thanks Butch. I was just measuring the shoes I removed. They are 8”. Do you have a thought about breaking the ends with a small bevel?

On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave


David Reina
 

Also Butch I have some lining material that I bought a long time ago and which was rough cut into long and short lengths. The short ones are 7 1/2” and the long ones are longer than the shoes and will need to be cut down. Any suggestion on how to orient the shorter pieces?

On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave


Butch
 

David,

If you're referring to the beveling of the ends of the shoe, yes. That helps keep the brakes from grabbing, at least until they have seated. It also helps prevent the linings from chipping at the ends.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:39 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
Thanks Butch. I was just measuring the shoes I removed. They are 8??? Do you have a thought about breaking the ends with a small bevel?
On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave

Butch
 

David,

No I don't know for sure, I've disassembled them in all configurations.

The Service Manual shows, the 9" with the short shoe to the rear, but that really means not a lot, given the general nature of the Crosley Service Manual.

Sorry to be of so little help,

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:46 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
Also Butch I have some lining material that I bought a long time ago and which was rough cut into long and short lengths. The short ones are 7 1/2??? and the long ones are longer than the shoes and will need to be cut down. Any suggestion on how to orient the shorter pieces?
On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave

David Reina
 

Hi Butch,

As always I really appreciate your help. I’m just finishing riveting the first set. Its going to be a late night.

Best regards,
Dave

On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:24 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

No I don't know for sure, I've disassembled them in all configurations.

The Service Manual shows, the 9" with the short shoe to the rear, but that really means not a lot, given the general nature of the Crosley Service Manual.

Sorry to be of so little help,

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:46 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
Also Butch I have some lining material that I bought a long time ago and which was rough cut into long and short lengths. The short ones are 7 1/2??? and the long ones are longer than the shoes and will need to be cut down. Any suggestion on how to orient the shorter pieces?
On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:20 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

David,

Crosley, like most manufacturers, used a long and a short shoe, this was done for various reasons.

When we had Service Motors, and when I do shoes here, now, I use long linings on all shoes. There is no detrimental reason not too.

Crosleys, especially the 6" cable braked cars, can use all the braking/stopping power that they can muster up.

Butch

On 10/10/2019 8:14 PM, David Reina via Groups.Io wrote:
I am trying to rivet new brake linings onto the cast iron shoes for my 47 sedan. I am ready to cut the linings and drill them for the rivets but am confused by some information in my old manual. It says??? The service brake lining( for use on brake shoes with rivets ) is 1??? shorter in the cam end and is assembled on the brake shoe toward the adjustment.??? Will someone decipher this for me. Both shoes end up at the cam and all eight linings I removed were the same length and all the same spacing on the shoe. About 7/16??? from each end of the shoe. I was hoping to get this done tonight so I could try and install them this weekend. I could go with the length of what was removed but am wondering if I am missing something.

Regards,
Dave


fred@...
 
Edited

The front shoe is the "leading" shoe and takes more of the braking force, the "trailing" - rear shoe has less effect. So the primary (front) shoe will be shorter and the rear longer to try to equalize the load as the car travels forward.  But unless you are going to drive your Crosley like a NY taxi, there will be little or no noticeable difference.

Tim Hamblen
 

Here's the problem with brake shoes and linings today. No one arc grinds shoes. Either they don't know how or simply don't have a grinder. I'd love to find an old AAMCO grinder.You just put linings on the shoes without arc grinding the shoes and the shoes are only touching the drums in a very small area. I think this is the single biggest problem with Crosley brakes.It matters not if you have 9" or 8" of lining if they are only touching the drum an inch or two.The very first thing my old auto mechanics teacher  taught us about brakes was arc grinding shoes.That was 48 years ago. There has to be a grinder out there somewhere.

Butch
 

We had one but sold it when we sold Service Motors.

Another problem, with the 3/16" inch lining (as I recall), often it won't even fit in the drum, without doing some arcing/grinding on it.

Without the shoe arcing machine, it's a major pain fitting them.

Butch

On 10/11/2019 9:44 PM, Tim Hamblen via Groups.Io wrote:
Here's the problem with brake shoes and linings today. No one arc grinds shoes. Either they don't know how or simply don't have a grinder. I'd love to find an old AAMCO grinder.You just put linings on the shoes without arc grinding the shoes and the shoes are only touching the drums in a very small area. I think this is the single biggest problem with Crosley brakes.It matters not if you have 9" or 8" of lining if they are only touching the drum an inch or two.The very first thing my old auto mechanics teacher?? taught us about brakes was arc grinding shoes.That was 48 years ago. There has to be a grinder out there somewhere.
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Virus-free. www.avast.com

David Reina
 

Hi Fred,

Thanks for writing and also calling with the info about the long and short shoe positions.  I’m up in Boston tonight at my father in laws house where I’ve had my 47 sedan tucked away in his garage.  Last night I finished riveting four pairs of linings.  I had brought the car up from New York two summers ago to participate in Charles Gould’s three days microcars event.  Part of the event involved a tour through MA of almost 100 miles. Just before bring the car to Boston I had installed new brake cables and new metallic woven material shoes. I worked several days trying to get good stopping performance from the new parts but could not achieve a crisp stop. During the microcar tour I was not happy with the braking. It was scary when there was a stop sign at the bottom of a hill. Every time we stopped on the tour I was under the car trying to adjust the brakes tighter. I was hoping they would improve as they bedded in. No luck and on the return part of the tour a front lining came off the shoe (probably from heat softening the epoxy bonding glue). This locked up the front wheel and upon inspection caused the cast iron shoe to break in many parts.  I hate to admit but it’s taken me two years to get it together and try and fix the brakes. I did use 3/16” material which I bought some years ago.  My friend Jak gave me a bunch of old brake shoes so I could reline. them in my shop and have them ready for when I got to Boston.  My cars shoes were cast iron. I know that there is also a steel style shoe and I also noticed that there is a third varient. It’s a cast iron shoe which uses a different shape where the shoe meets the cam. Instead of the plain flat edge this other style shoe has a half circle cut away on the center of the cam edge which fits against a different style cam. I’d never heard of this before.  For my job I only used the straight edge style   I had a good selection of shoes to pick from. All but one was riveted. Two in the batch had broken in the past and were brazed. I didn’t use them although the had held up ok. One  shoe was glued and that shoe had no rivet holes drilled through. All the riveted shoes were about 8 1/8” in length and centered on the shoes. I didn’t have enough information last night to figure out long and short linings. It seemed that if you go with a short lining you will miss one rivet hole on the shoe.  I am concerned hearing from the discussion that the 3/16” material may be to tight to fit in the drum.   Again, thank you for your advise. I’m hoping that by Sunday I will have working brakes.  Dave

Michael Braun
 

In response to Tim Hamblen, I have an old Brake shoe arc grinder although I have never used it.  I have a 47 Pick Up with hydraulic brakes but the truck doesn’t stop worth a damn.  I suspect the shoes don’t meet the drum as was discussed.  If someone is near Dover, DE and knows how to use the grinder, I would be glad to host a “brake shoe grinding session”. 

Tim Hamblen
 

I would think that out there in places are old drum lathes and grinders available . Back in the 70s the Gooberment cracked down and ordered the grinders out of shops due to asbestos dust. Well, no more asbestos, so the grinders would be OK, although I would strongly advise a good respirator. As I have a metal working lathe I could even turn the small CC drums on it, just need to arc them.

Tim Hamblen
 

That's the spirit Mike. BTW look on fleabay. There's manuals for auction and sale there for the grinders. Not bad price either, but I'd even bet there's stuff on the 'Net on how to do it.

Butch
 

Turning the drums, on a lathe, (referring to the rears, especially) is a bit more difficult than it appears.

You must have a good way to center the drum on its axis, and keep it true thru its travel, while cutting.

Getting a good cut finish (remember, you are boring), without chatter marks, can be tough, but is doable with patience and practice. A very rigid setup is mandatory.

Butch

On 10/12/2019 8:00 AM, Tim Hamblen via Groups.Io wrote:
I would think that out there in places are old drum lathes and grinders available . Back in the 70s the Gooberment cracked down and ordered the grinders out of shops due to asbestos dust. Well, no more asbestos, so the grinders would be OK, although I would strongly advise a good respirator. As I have a metal working lathe I could even turn the small CC drums on it, just need to arc them.
_._,_._,_

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Kenn Cahill
 

We have a brake shoe arc grinder, but are in need of the abrasive strips that are necessary for its operation. Does anyone have a source of these abrasive strips?
Kenn Cahill

Kenny Acheson
 

Check McMaster Carr

On Oct 12, 2019, at 10:36 AM, Kenn Cahill <drkenncahill@...> wrote:

We have a brake shoe arc grinder, but are in need of the abrasive strips that are necessary for its operation. Does anyone have a source of these abrasive strips?
Kenn Cahill


Tim Hamblen
 

Here's something I have thought about. What if you took an extra drum (would need a front and rear) glue a good abrasive paper inside the drum . slip the drum on the shoes and backing plate, button it down and start spinning the wheel / tire and basically "grind in " the proper fit ? Right now I'm just at a point where I have the new lining/shoes in place and am just driving it around and "grinding" it to fit. As they start loosening up , adjust a bit tighter and keep going.There's been so many shoes relined and not arc ground, that's what we are all doing anyway.

David Reina
 


I finished the brake job on my 47 this weekend.  I worked Thursday night until the morning hours riveting the new linings then up to Boston on Friday.  All day Saturday fitting the new shoes.  Butch, the new linings were 3/16” and each one had to be dressed down to fit the drums.  Fortunately my mother in law had a wood shop and on a good Delta stationary belt sander and using eyeball technology I fit each shoe to the drum.
Sunday I finished the job, did the initial adjustments and went for a ride around the block.  The linings that had been in the car I could not get to work properly.  They were a very hard lining with a lot of copper woven into the shoes.  I finished the brake job with those linings in the week before I brought the car to Charles Gould’s Microcar meet in Bostontwo summers ago.  However I could not get a crisp stop out of those shoes.  Part of the Microcar meet involved a 100 drive through towns in MA. I kept hoping the shoes would bed in a bit and work better but I had a scare every time I had to go down a hill with a stop sign at the bottom.  Every time we stopped on the tour I was under the car trying to adjust the brakes tighter.  Finally one shoe must have gotten hot from being tightened too much.  The lining became unglued from the lining, bounded around in the drum, locked up the drum and broke the cast iron shoe.  Did you know that with the mechanical brakes you can drive with one set of shoes missing.  Anyway my car sat at my father in laws all this time (2 years).  Thank you Jay, Butch and Fred for your help and advise.

Dave



On Oct 11, 2019, at 10:06 PM, Butch via Groups.Io <butch46988@...> wrote:

We had one but sold it when we sold Service Motors.

Another problem, with the 3/16" inch lining (as I recall), often it won't even fit in the drum, without doing some arcing/grinding on it.

Without the shoe arcing machine, it's a major pain fitting them.

Butch

On 10/11/2019 9:44 PM, Tim Hamblen via Groups.Io wrote:
Here's the problem with brake shoes and linings today. No one arc grinds shoes. Either they don't know how or simply don't have a grinder. I'd love to find an old AAMCO grinder.You just put linings on the shoes without arc grinding the shoes and the shoes are only touching the drums in a very small area. I think this is the single biggest problem with Crosley brakes.It matters not if you have 9" or 8" of lining if they are only touching the drum an inch or two.The very first thing my old auto mechanics teacher?? taught us about brakes was arc grinding shoes.That was 48 years ago. There has to be a grinder out there somewhere.