Looking for crosley pickup


Jeremy Rutherford
 

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups. I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up. I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans. Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy


crosleyshortsport
 

Jeremy,  As chairman of the Crosley automobile club national meet, I invite you to join us, July 4 through 8 at Fulton county fairgrounds in Wauseon, Ohio. You will have a great time, I guarantee it! If you are not a member of the national club, please consider it. I hope you find the perfect Crosley for you. 
   Jeffrey Ackerman

On Feb 21, 2017 9:59 AM, "Jeremy Rutherford" <jruthe2@...> wrote:

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups.  I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up.  I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans.  Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy





Steve <nutsbolts_9502@...>
 

.....or, you could join the Crosley Car Owners Club
No dues
Over 500 friendly members
Annual get together
Lots of tech help
Buy, trade and sell.

Sent from my I-thing

On Feb 21, 2017, at 11:39 AM, crosleyshortsport <crosleyshortsport@...> wrote:

Jeremy,  As chairman of the Crosley automobile club national meet, I invite you to join us, July 4 through 8 at Fulton county fairgrounds in Wauseon, Ohio. You will have a great time, I guarantee it! If you are not a member of the national club, please consider it. I hope you find the perfect Crosley for you. 
   Jeffrey Ackerman

On Feb 21, 2017 9:59 AM, "Jeremy Rutherford" <jruthe2@...> wrote:

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups.  I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up.  I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans.  Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy





Steve <nutsbolts_9502@...>
 

On Feb 21, 2017, at 2:35 PM, Steve via Groups.Io <nutsbolts_9502@...> wrote:

.....or, you could join the Crosley Car Owners Club
No dues
Over 500 friendly members
Annual get together
Lots of tech help
Buy, trade and sell.

Sent from my I-thing

On Feb 21, 2017, at 11:39 AM, crosleyshortsport <crosleyshortsport@...> wrote:

Jeremy,  As chairman of the Crosley automobile club national meet, I invite you to join us, July 4 through 8 at Fulton county fairgrounds in Wauseon, Ohio. You will have a great time, I guarantee it! If you are not a member of the national club, please consider it. I hope you find the perfect Crosley for you. 
   Jeffrey Ackerman

On Feb 21, 2017 9:59 AM, "Jeremy Rutherford" <jruthe2@...> wrote:

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups.  I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up.  I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans.  Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy





Jim Bollman
 

Steve since this group is sponsored by the Crosley Auto Club and does not require any dues to participate on the message board, I would appreciate you not promoting the other club as something special since it is just a message board and does not offer the option of more if a person wants more.

Jim...

On Feb 21, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Steve via Groups.Io <nutsbolts_9502@...> wrote:

.....or, you could join the Crosley Car Owners Club
No dues
Over 500 friendly members
Annual get together
Lots of tech help
Buy, trade and sell.

Sent from my I-thing

On Feb 21, 2017, at 11:39 AM, crosleyshortsport <crosleyshortsport@...> wrote:

Jeremy,  As chairman of the Crosley automobile club national meet, I invite you to join us, July 4 through 8 at Fulton county fairgrounds in Wauseon, Ohio. You will have a great time, I guarantee it! If you are not a member of the national club, please consider it. I hope you find the perfect Crosley for you. 
   Jeffrey Ackerman

On Feb 21, 2017 9:59 AM, "Jeremy Rutherford" <jruthe2@...> wrote:

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups.  I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up.  I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans.  Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy






Vern Barker <romardb@...>
 

There's a project 47 round side pickup on Salem Oregon Graigslist Check it out.

Vern

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Rutherford
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:47 AM
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Subject: [Crosley-Gang] Looking for crosley pickup


Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups. I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up. I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans. Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy


Steve <nutsbolts_9502@...>
 

Jim,
You find it offensive that Crosley folks are introduced to additional references for Crosley information, services and camaraderie?

Other Crosley clubs are not competition.

To the contrary, Crosley folks should be encouraged and educated to all additional Crosley information available.

The Crosley vendors conduct themselves in a civil business like manner, why can't the Crosley Automobile Club, which you represent?



Sent from my I-thing

On Feb 21, 2017, at 2:56 PM, Jim Bollman <Jim@...> wrote:

Steve since this group is sponsored by the Crosley Auto Club and does not require any dues to participate on the message board, I would appreciate you not promoting the other club as something special since it is just a message board and does not offer the option of more if a person wants more.

Jim...

On Feb 21, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Steve via Groups.Io <nutsbolts_9502@...> wrote:

.....or, you could join the Crosley Car Owners Club
No dues
Over 500 friendly members
Annual get together
Lots of tech help
Buy, trade and sell.

Sent from my I-thing

On Feb 21, 2017, at 11:39 AM, crosleyshortsport <crosleyshortsport@...> wrote:

Jeremy,  As chairman of the Crosley automobile club national meet, I invite you to join us, July 4 through 8 at Fulton county fairgrounds in Wauseon, Ohio. You will have a great time, I guarantee it! If you are not a member of the national club, please consider it. I hope you find the perfect Crosley for you. 
   Jeffrey Ackerman

On Feb 21, 2017 9:59 AM, "Jeremy Rutherford" <jruthe2@...> wrote:

Hi,

I apologize if I am posting in the wrong area, I am new to the groups.  I am in central Illinois and I am interested in finding a crosley pickup project. I could travel for pick up.  I was born and raised on classic chevys, but have had a crosley bug since seeing a yellow wagon 25 years or so ago. A roller with a decent body would be ideal, not concerned with paint, engine or trans.  Also, I'm not picky about the year, I like them all. Let me know if you might have or know if a candidate,
Thanks,
Jeremy






Jim Bollman
 

No I'm not offended by people having other options to get Crosley info I find your way of saying it offensive. Now drop it and back to Crosley talk.


ROBERT L GREGG <capngrog@...>
 

Amen, Jim!

Bob


On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 8:24 PM, Jim Bollman <Jim@...> wrote:


No I'm not offended by people having other options to get Crosley info I find your way of saying it offensive. Now drop it and back to Crosley talk.



Jeremy Rutherford
 

Thanks for all the replies,  didn't think I'd get much response, this must be a passionate group of owners.  The one posted in Memphis is a beauty, but too nice for my needs, I am at the moment planning to repower it with something.  Again, thank you all, especially paul, for the warm welcome and willingness to jump right in and help a new guy out.  I will be checking into joining the clubs as well.


L.E. Hardee
 

Be careful about re-powering and "up grading" the Crosley if you are large.  The only one of my Crosleys that I have any problems with is my firetruck.  It was modified with newer seats and different pedals to go with a Ford 4 cylinder engine and automatic transmission.  The new interior combination of seat/pedals has a lot less foot and leg room.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy Rutherford <jruthe2@...> wrote:
Thanks for all the replies,  didn't think I'd get much response, this must be a passionate group of owners.  The one posted in Memphis is a beauty, but too nice for my needs, I am at the moment planning to repower it with something.  Again, thank you all, especially paul, for the warm welcome and willingness to jump right in and help a new guy out.  I will be checking into joining the clubs as well.



Jeremy Rutherford
 

I want to keep it largely stock appearing inside and out, but wanted to repower with a chevy 4 cyl/5 speed, which I've already been told would require some major firewall surgery, so i am back to the drawing board on power, for now 


Jim Bollman
 

The pickup is probably the tightest fit for standard Crosleys because the back of the cab doesn't allow the seat to be moved further back than the stock position. As several already said your size isn't a problem, but seats need to be about the same size as original.

Are you looking to repower for reliability. performance, ???? I ask because the Crosley engine went through many transformation after the company closed. The final form was bored and stroked out to 59ci and put out 55hp in stock form and is pretty easy to get 65-70hp from and still look basically stock and no weight problems requiring suspension changes. Some work is needed to put it back in a car but many have been done. The stock Crosley engine can also be modified to put out considerable more power. Another swap that has been done by several people is the Ford Pinto 4cyl. Not sure if all variation fit without modifying the firewall but I believe thee 1600cc version will fit without much modification to the firewall other than the transmission hump.

At the Crosley Nationals you see everything from bone stock up, including diesel, small block chevy, flathead Ford V8, assorted 4 cylinder both domestic and japanese, electric, even a Harley powered one year. You may want to plan on attending for ideas before you get to far.

Jim...


parkhunter@...
 

If you're planning on repowering it anyway, you might start with one of the far more common wagons and convert it to a pickup truck. That way you've got more flexibility about locating the seat. 


Blessings,

Park


Jeremy Rutherford
 

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity.  Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already.  I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers.  Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway.  I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could.  I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.

thans again for all the info



Jim Bollman
 

The last generation of Crosley based engines were built by Homelite and Bearcat as vertical boat engines. They are not as available as Crosley engines but they are not to hard to come by. They do take some work and a donor Crosley engine to convert back into a car engine but the results are pretty amazing. Driving a Crosley, that still sounds like a Crosley, that has 2 to 3 times the hp is pretty impressive (by Crosley standards). There are other variations with varying HP.  As you are finding out Crosley mechanical parts are fairly easy to get when you look for them, not as easy as Chey or Ford but not bad. Our vendors are great keeping parts affordable. For long distance driving you do need to carry a few spares because not every parts stores will have parts.

The Crosley Engine Family Tree is a good place to learn of the variations, the post Crosley updates are on page 4 and 5.

On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Jeremy Rutherford <jruthe2@...> wrote:

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity.  Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already.  I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers.  Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway.  I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could.  I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.

thans again for all the info




paul
 

Jeremy,
I took my answers off the list to save space before, but I knew these great folks would be receptive to giving good advice. nobody is going to BS you or lead you wrong. you are on the right track, save the weekend in July to come to northwestern Ohio, see, talk, and get ideas. there's your chance to sit in a Crosley or two, height and weight isn't a problem, a stock Crosley will wrap around you like Cinderella's glass slipper. the good Lord knew I'd have an appetite and thus a larger rear side, so instead of making me 6 ft tall, he bent a couple of extra inches around to my foot length for balance, size 12s. a stock Crosley isn't a problem, but bringing the pedals closer and moving them to the left by pushing in the firewall and widening the trans tunnel might make for cramped space. Paul Rinehart in Dayton, Ohio

On 2/22/2017 1:26 PM, Jeremy Rutherford wrote:

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity. Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already. I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers. Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway. I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could. I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.

thans again for all the info


Robert Connearney
 

Some engines I would investigate for potential swap material:

  • BMC "A" Series (Sprite/Midget) - 948 to 1275 cc, easy to find and cheap, maybe shorter than the Crosley, but undoubtedly heavier.
  • Datsun "A" Series - 1200 - 1500 cc, similar to BMC "A", very rugged, 5-bearing forged steel crank, maybe not too easy to find. I know a guy that made this swap, which he says was fairly easy; used the Datsun transmission also, with open drive and a narrowed Metropolitan (Sprite/Midget) rear end. Could get you some specific info, if you think about going this route.
  • Suzuki 3-Cylinder - 1000 cc, used in Chevy Geos, don't know much about them, but I believe are all aluminum (therefore light), SOHC, probably shorter than Crosley, except I think the distributor is driven off the back of the cam, therefore may need a recess in the firewall. (A new model of the Lotus/Caterham 7 uses a current version of this engine, 660 cc, DOHC, 80 HP; these are from Suzuki Kei-Cars, therefore probably hard to source in the USA.) What's in the new little Chevies, maybe the current Suzuki 3-cylinder? You might check the small Chevy 4 Ecotec, I know a fellow putting one in a Ford Anglia/Popular.
  • Early Cortina/Pinto 1600 cc engines are nice, but hard to find since they're all snapped up by the Formula Ford guys. Ford Zetecs are similar displacement, DOHC. Or the current Duratec, similar to the Zetec but all-aluminum.

It would be ill-advised to even think about using the Crosley transmission/rear end, so you can figure on a significant packet of money to narrow a rear end. I think the narrowest available is the Spridget, which has a track of 45", about 5" more that a Crosley (but same wheel bolt pattern). Don't commit to a modern engine without making sure you won't have an emissions compliance problem with your friendly state government. (An acquaintance has a beautifully home-made Lotus Seven which took many years to build. But the engine, which was certifiable when he bought it, can no longer be used in what the state considers to be a "new" car.)

Many modern engines are set up for front wheel drive, so you probably need to budget for fabricating or buying an appropriate adapter to some available conventional transmission.
 
 Bob Connearney 



From: Jeremy Rutherford <jruthe2@...>
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Looking for crosley pickup

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity.  Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already.  I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers.  Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway.  I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could.  I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.
thans again for all the info




Doug Daniel
 

  You are correct;  narrowing a rear axle at a competent machine shop can get expensive.

  Two other options are:
1).  Change  the wheel offset for the rear wheels so that the tires move inboard with the wider axle.
2).  Install fender flairs and let the front and rear wheel tread width be different.  

Thanks

      Doug


On Feb 22, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Robert Connearney via Groups.Io <rconnearney@...> wrote:

Some engines I would investigate for potential swap material:

  • BMC "A" Series (Sprite/Midget) - 948 to 1275 cc, easy to find and cheap, maybe shorter than the Crosley, but undoubtedly heavier.
  • Datsun "A" Series - 1200 - 1500 cc, similar to BMC "A", very rugged, 5-bearing forged steel crank, maybe not too easy to find. I know a guy that made this swap, which he says was fairly easy; used the Datsun transmission also, with open drive and a narrowed Metropolitan (Sprite/Midget) rear end. Could get you some specific info, if you think about going this route.
  • Suzuki 3-Cylinder - 1000 cc, used in Chevy Geos, don't know much about them, but I believe are all aluminum (therefore light), SOHC, probably shorter than Crosley, except I think the distributor is driven off the back of the cam, therefore may need a recess in the firewall. (A new model of the Lotus/Caterham 7 uses a current version of this engine, 660 cc, DOHC, 80 HP; these are from Suzuki Kei-Cars, therefore probably hard to source in the USA.) What's in the new little Chevies, maybe the current Suzuki 3-cylinder? You might check the small Chevy 4 Ecotec, I know a fellow putting one in a Ford Anglia/Popular.
  • Early Cortina/Pinto 1600 cc engines are nice, but hard to find since they're all snapped up by the Formula Ford guys. Ford Zetecs are similar displacement, DOHC. Or the current Duratec, similar to the Zetec but all-aluminum.

It would be ill-advised to even think about using the Crosley transmission/rear end, so you can figure on a significant packet of money to narrow a rear end. I think the narrowest available is the Spridget, which has a track of 45", about 5" more that a Crosley (but same wheel bolt pattern). Don't commit to a modern engine without making sure you won't have an emissions compliance problem with your friendly state government. (An acquaintance has a beautifully home-made Lotus Seven which took many years to build. But the engine, which was certifiable when he bought it, can no longer be used in what the state considers to be a "new" car.)

Many modern engines are set up for front wheel drive, so you probably need to budget for fabricating or buying an appropriate adapter to some available conventional transmission.
 
 Bob Connearney 



From: Jeremy Rutherford <jruthe2@...>
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Looking for crosley pickup

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity.  Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already.  I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers.  Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway.  I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could.  I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.
thans again for all the info




Robert Connearney
 

Pretty hard to gain much with altered wheel offset. "Reversing" wheels generally increases track. Could go to some front-wheel-drive wheels, which are comparatively more offset inwards; 12" MG 1100 wheels would fit (4" bolt circle), but I'd be shocked if they gained more than 3/4" per wheel. (I think early Honda Civic wheels are 4" bc as well.) To gain the required 2.5" per side, you'd need to offset stock wheels by a about the width of the rim; the inner wheel would project several inches beyond the outer edge of the rim. Agreed, if you're going to swap the engine, then it's a "hot rod", and you might as well add flairs. Aesthetically, I think they would difficult to integrate with the later pick-ups, but might actually look cool on a "roundside".



            Bob Connearney 



From: Doug Daniel via Groups.Io <sanfelipedoug@...>
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Looking for crosley pickup

  You are correct;  narrowing a rear axle at a competent machine shop can get expensive.

  Two other options are:
1).  Change  the wheel offset for the rear wheels so that the tires move inboard with the wider axle.
2).  Install fender flairs and let the front and rear wheel tread width be different.  

Thanks

      Doug


On Feb 22, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Robert Connearney via Groups.Io <rconnearney@...> wrote:

Some engines I would investigate for potential swap material:

  • BMC "A" Series (Sprite/Midget) - 948 to 1275 cc, easy to find and cheap, maybe shorter than the Crosley, but undoubtedly heavier.
  • Datsun "A" Series - 1200 - 1500 cc, similar to BMC "A", very rugged, 5-bearing forged steel crank, maybe not too easy to find. I know a guy that made this swap, which he says was fairly easy; used the Datsun transmission also, with open drive and a narrowed Metropolitan (Sprite/Midget) rear end. Could get you some specific info, if you think about going this route.
  • Suzuki 3-Cylinder - 1000 cc, used in Chevy Geos, don't know much about them, but I believe are all aluminum (therefore light), SOHC, probably shorter than Crosley, except I think the distributor is driven off the back of the cam, therefore may need a recess in the firewall. (A new model of the Lotus/Caterham 7 uses a current version of this engine, 660 cc, DOHC, 80 HP; these are from Suzuki Kei-Cars, therefore probably hard to source in the USA.) What's in the new little Chevies, maybe the current Suzuki 3-cylinder? You might check the small Chevy 4 Ecotec, I know a fellow putting one in a Ford Anglia/Popular.
  • Early Cortina/Pinto 1600 cc engines are nice, but hard to find since they're all snapped up by the Formula Ford guys. Ford Zetecs are similar displacement, DOHC. Or the current Duratec, similar to the Zetec but all-aluminum.

It would be ill-advised to even think about using the Crosley transmission/rear end, so you can figure on a significant packet of money to narrow a rear end. I think the narrowest available is the Spridget, which has a track of 45", about 5" more that a Crosley (but same wheel bolt pattern). Don't commit to a modern engine without making sure you won't have an emissions compliance problem with your friendly state government. (An acquaintance has a beautifully home-made Lotus Seven which took many years to build. But the engine, which was certifiable when he bought it, can no longer be used in what the state considers to be a "new" car.)

Many modern engines are set up for front wheel drive, so you probably need to budget for fabricating or buying an appropriate adapter to some available conventional transmission.
 
 Bob Connearney 



From: Jeremy Rutherford <jruthe2@...>
To: Crosley-Gang@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Crosley-Gang] Looking for crosley pickup

I was planning on repowering for power, reliability, ease of maintenance, and familiarity.  Some of this was based on my assumption that engine and trans parts would be hard to come by and I figured I could get a donor chevy 4 and trans cheap. I am learning a lot already.  I did not realize they had produced a later motor capable of those numbers.  Are they fairly easy to come by? I am in no hurry to jump into the project, I have a 50 chevy I want to finish before I would even start anyway.  I just wanted to reach out and collect as much info as I could.  I did not realize there was such a strong community out there for crosleys, so I thought it would take me a lot longer to get info, but you guys have been great. I am starting to think I might hold back a little and plan on attending the nationals to see some ideas in person.
thans again for all the info