Topics

Did two windows--unexpected core?


Josh Norten
 

After a WINDY last race up here in Chicago, a handy crew member talked me into it.  I'm glad he did.

I have read, asked, watched, asked more, read more, etc. how to tackle this on the C30.  I expected chainsaw-like cut holes, missing/jigsaw/rotten/whatever was on the shop floor for coring, etc.

What I found was a cleanly cut hole, snug fit window, and no wood coring.  It was a fairly clean "strata" of cabin-liner inner, fiberglass/gelcoat exterior, and a plastic-like thin layer of coring.

I was dreading having to tarp the holes and allowing it to dry a week, etc.  I had my saw, marine ply scraps, and West System ready to go. . . . Nope, thankfully not needed.

I really don't know how to explain it (unless it's normal and simply inexperience).  I am almost positive they have been rebed by a previous owner as the cabintop to frame seal was butyl which I do not believe is factory.  Perhaps the previous owner filled the gaps with epoxy (hence plastic like core observation).  But, it's such a clean layered look.  Who knows?

Doing a water test after the repair did reveal water still gathering in the frame channel.  So, I still have some leaking between the glass and frame.  This I'll tackle next weekend--doing the cut out the sealant from the outside routine--as the factory prescribes.  This week, I try to track down the Dow brand high rise glass sealant stuff (or I'll settle for proper marine silicone??)

Who knows.

One thing--I threw so much weather at the boat this summer in racing and wow she ain't fast but is she tough.  I thought for sure yesterday was the day I'd break something.  Instead, we momentarily topped 8 knots over ground.....a speed record for ol' Esperanza!  Hopefully this is a result of OK attention to detail (inspecting turnbuckles, chainplates, furling, keeping a dry bilge (i.e. preventing compression post base rot), etc....somewhat regularly.


--
Josh Norten
s/v Esperanza
MK1 1982 #2462 SR
Universal 5411
Waukegan, IL


Bill Sherman
 

Josh

Butyl was never used on the MK1’s !

If you are not separating the glass from the frame, you are doing a bandaid fix.

It is called Dow Corning 795, it is silicone, but not like you have ever used 😉

 

Bill Sherman

Cat 30 1979

From: Catalina30@groups.io <Catalina30@groups.io> On Behalf Of Josh Norten
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 4:47 AM
To: Catalina30@groups.io
Subject: [catalina30] Did two windows--unexpected core?

 

After a WINDY last race up here in Chicago, a handy crew member talked me into it.  I'm glad he did.

I have read, asked, watched, asked more, read more, etc. how to tackle this on the C30.  I expected chainsaw-like cut holes, missing/jigsaw/rotten/whatever was on the shop floor for coring, etc.

What I found was a cleanly cut hole, snug fit window, and no wood coring.  It was a fairly clean "strata" of cabin-liner inner, fiberglass/gelcoat exterior, and a plastic-like thin layer of coring.

I was dreading having to tarp the holes and allowing it to dry a week, etc.  I had my saw, marine ply scraps, and West System ready to go. . . . Nope, thankfully not needed.

I really don't know how to explain it (unless it's normal and simply inexperience).  I am almost positive they have been rebed by a previous owner as the cabintop to frame seal was butyl which I do not believe is factory.  Perhaps the previous owner filled the gaps with epoxy (hence plastic like core observation).  But, it's such a clean layered look.  Who knows?

Doing a water test after the repair did reveal water still gathering in the frame channel.  So, I still have some leaking between the glass and frame.  This I'll tackle next weekend--doing the cut out the sealant from the outside routine--as the factory prescribes.  This week, I try to track down the Dow brand high rise glass sealant stuff (or I'll settle for proper marine silicone??)

Who knows.

One thing--I threw so much weather at the boat this summer in racing and wow she ain't fast but is she tough.  I thought for sure yesterday was the day I'd break something.  Instead, we momentarily topped 8 knots over ground.....a speed record for ol' Esperanza!  Hopefully this is a result of OK attention to detail (inspecting turnbuckles, chainplates, furling, keeping a dry bilge (i.e. preventing compression post base rot), etc....somewhat regularly.


--
Josh Norten
s/v Esperanza
MK1 1982 #2462 SR
Universal 5411
Waukegan, IL


KWKloeber
 

It’s called
rebed by a previous owner<<
Anyone doing the quick fix while rebedding should cut out the glazing vinyl while the window is out then reglaze them.
I’d do that after installed, which puts the glass and frame in their positions on the curved coachroof so you glaze them in that position (sans future thermal expansion, of course.)


nduttonc30
 

If you had a stanchion leak would you slobber silicone all over the base?  Of course not, you'd remove the stanchion, clean its base and the deck, put fresh sealant of your choice between the mating parts where it will do some good and reinstall.  It is amazing to me - and not in a good way - that Catalina would endorse the sort of quick fix discussed here and shown in the attached drawing.


Josh Norten
 

Point taken for the last 6 windows.  The process is really not that tough--patience is the key as cleaning takes a while.

If the quick fix holds 10 years on the first two then I'll be happy.


--
Josh Norten
s/v Esperanza
MK1 1982 #2462 SR
Universal 5411
Waukegan, IL


KWKloeber
 


Josh I disagree.  I wouldn't hesitate to consider using the CTY fix (again.)
 
Here's why:
 
1) The CTY fix has zero to do with removing a deck fitting -- it's not spreading sillycone on top of a deck fitting, or on top of existing sealant, or outside of where the seal area is.  All those visions come to mind when thinking about "slobbering," and obviously aren't a good fix.  It's a straw man argument.
 
2) The seal (glazing) area is where the glazing vinyl rests against the glass -- basically the fillet and what's just under the fillet.  The remaining "U" of the OEM glazing wouldn't stop much once the fillet is removed -- it's not the seal area.  Yes, it becomes the seal area if you remove the glass and bed it in sillycone per the CD kit.
 
3) Carefully removing the glazing vinyl, as deep as you can, and cleaning, gets you brand new, good surfaces to seal against.  And 795 will seal and be infinitely more robust than any glazing vinyl will ever be in the same location/function.  When they glaze panels on highrises, they don't use glazing vinyl, they glaze with 795.  I suspect there's a reason for that from years of experience.
 
4) Glazing with the window out means the glass and frame are neutral, not in the position/under the as-installed stress.  Logically all else equal glazing in place might make a better seal.  I don't know whether that makes a difference or not over the long haul, but even if not it can't be worse glazing in situ.
 
You might find it more "satisfying" doing the complete R&R, but I'm not sure the considerably more effort that the CD kit involves, creates more of a leak-free window than the CTY fix.  Only time would tell.  Certainly there's considerable belt/suspenders w/ the CD kit, but if there's no leak either way maybe suspenders aren't necessary.  Who knows - only Father time?   Oh and if you don't have a frame leak, the CTY fix can be a really fast job done in place.
 
5)  Maybe more important - I temporarily did a CTY fix on one window, maybe it was two }CRS{ windows? for a 2-week cruise.  I didn’t have 795 or even West Marine marine silicone around, so I used a typical 3oz tube of Dow or whatever "bathroom" sillycone, with the window in place, because I knew I was going to have to redo it.
 
It has not leaked. 

That was circa 1996.  I Josh you not.
 
There's may cats and many skins, and if your windows are in REALLY bad shape (mine weren't) maybe you want to do the full Monty.  YBYC.
 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Steve
 

I used the CTY kit on my C27, the most amount of work was removing all the sealants that the various PO has used to bandaid, I get picky and I liked that the new vinyl looked nice on the inside of the boat, the old stuff was coming apart and discolored, the only variance was that I used butyl tape on the aluminum to gelcoat surfaces insead of the included sealant.
It was a PIA job but I just took home 2 windows at a time to re-glaze.
If you have the whole winter it would make sense, if you live in Florida I would have done the 795.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 8:44 PM KWKloeber via groups.io <KWKloeber=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Josh I disagree.  I wouldn't hesitate to consider using the CTY fix (again.)
 
Here's why:
 
1) The CTY fix has zero to do with removing a deck fitting -- it's not spreading sillycone on top of a deck fitting, or on top of existing sealant, or outside of where the seal area is.  All those visions come to mind when thinking about "slobbering," and obviously aren't a good fix.  It's a straw man argument.
 
2) The seal (glazing) area is where the glazing vinyl rests against the glass -- basically the fillet and what's just under the fillet.  The remaining "U" of the OEM glazing wouldn't stop much once the fillet is removed -- it's not the seal area.  Yes, it becomes the seal area if you remove the glass and bed it in sillycone per the CD kit.
 
3) Carefully removing the glazing vinyl, as deep as you can, and cleaning, gets you brand new, good surfaces to seal against.  And 795 will seal and be infinitely more robust than any glazing vinyl will ever be in the same location/function.  When they glaze panels on highrises, they don't use glazing vinyl, they glaze with 795.  I suspect there's a reason for that from years of experience.
 
4) Glazing with the window out means the glass and frame are neutral, not in the position/under the as-installed stress.  Logically all else equal glazing in place might make a better seal.  I don't know whether that makes a difference or not over the long haul, but even if not it can't be worse glazing in situ.
 
You might find it more "satisfying" doing the complete R&R, but I'm not sure the considerably more effort that the CD kit involves, creates more of a leak-free window than the CTY fix.  Only time would tell.  Certainly there's considerable belt/suspenders w/ the CD kit, but if there's no leak either way maybe suspenders aren't necessary.  Who knows - only Father time?   Oh and if you don't have a frame leak, the CTY fix can be a really fast job done in place.
 
5)  Maybe more important - I temporarily did a CTY fix on one window, maybe it was two }CRS{ windows? for a 2-week cruise.  I didn’t have 795 or even West Marine marine silicone around, so I used a typical 3oz tube of Dow or whatever "bathroom" sillycone, with the window in place, because I knew I was going to have to redo it.
 
It has not leaked. 

That was circa 1996.  I Josh you not.
 
There's may cats and many skins, and if your windows are in REALLY bad shape (mine weren't) maybe you want to do the full Monty.  YBYC.
 

Virus-free. www.avg.com



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


nduttonc30
 

Your boat, your choice indeed.  You can fix it right or put a band-aid on it.  Some prefer the former, others not.


fkrabach@...
 

The previous owner of mine had removed all the windows, had the frames blasted and powder coated and got the seal kit from CD. He used some real cheap, nasty black butyl that oozed and stained the deck everywhere. The windows also all still leaked. I removed the one over the nav station and disassembled it. He assembled them dry meaning no sealant in the u channel or the glazing strip. I applied 795 in the glazing and the frame channel. Then used Bed It butyl to seal to the boat. So far so good. Due to the mess of his road crack seal crap I wiped out and did the rest with the glaze cut and 795 method. It is working so far as well. FYI: I found the Dowsil 795 at a local glass shop. Noone else could get it. 


KWKloeber
 
Edited

Hey Josh

There seems to be a misrepresentation (not unusual) of what I am saying.  I DID NOT say you should or shouldn't use any one method to fix anything.  Hell, when I did it, I PLANNED it to be a bandaid, not a fix that would last 25 years (as it has so far.)    There's no doubt that the CD kit, as awful as some have botched up the sillycone-ing (I have personally seen some results,) is not "equal" to the quick fix.  Hence (duh) the term "quick fix."  It's easy for others to spend others' resources by telling them what they **need** to do about things -- but those decisions are not as cut and dried as saying that this or that "is right."   Steve says it all -- "Everyone has to make their own decision, a 40 year old boat .... I don't need it another 40." (thank's Steve, for the parallel.)  What's right, is what's right for someone's particular situation, so long as they decide based on FACTS -- and that was the sole purpose of my post and passing on the experience I had -- to address statements that mischaracterized the quick fix.

If I disassembled the frames to paint, powder coat, or re-anodize them, certainly I'd do it differently than I did those one or two -- but probably not use the CD kit, either -- I'd likely use the 3rd method that's been documented on here.

cheers,
-k 

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:41 AM, nduttonc30 wrote:
Your boat, your choice indeed.  You can fix it right or put a band-aid on it.  Some prefer the former, others not.



KWKloeber
 

>>>On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 08:43 AM, <fkrabach@...> wrote:
: I found the Dowsil 795 at a local glass shop. Noone else could get it. <<

JUST FYI, 795 is available from a few sources online, just google eye it.


Josh Norten
 

Update:

I have redone my three leakiest windows so far. The others are ok so they will wait. 

I skipped the CD kit as my interior trim vinyl was fine.  It cleaned up to like-new with soap and water.  

i bought two tubes of the “proper” stuff from CD and was surprised to receive Dow 791. What the heck?  I read up on it and the only difference between 791 and 795 is that 795 is structural. OK I think as glass to frame is not structural. 


My windows have been redone previously as there was butyl between cabin top and window frame. This makes sense as upon further investigation most leaking was between glass and frame. Enter Dow 791. 


It wasn’t a terrible project. Cleaning old sealant was as others noted the biggest issue.


I now have three frames installed with new Bed It butyl.  For the glass seal, I cut the old silicone out with a combo of utility knife and X-acto knife.  The cut went deep per Catalina fix.  Scotch Bright and acetone cleaned remaining residue well. Mask and seal with Dow followed.  

Tooled the Dow with rag and wet finger.  Not professional but I’d call it a really good DIY finish.  

My only potential issue is one of cutouts was a tad large and I had to be careful to make sure the double layer of butyl on the frame lip caught fiberglass all around—i.e. position window with care.  

We shall see what the water test reveals this weekend!


All in all I am glad I finally tackled it.  I have some goo left in the first tube.  If I get bored before winter then I might reglaze the others without removing from boat since they are bedded to cabin with butyl.  



--
Josh Norten
s/v Esperanza
MK1 1982 #2462 SR
Universal 5411
Waukegan, IL


KWKloeber
 

Josh

If you remove others, run a pencil line around the frame beforehand for vert/horz guides when repositioning them.

791 is fine, but you might find that 795 provides a little better/smoother finish using the finger technique (or rounded stick or popsicle/craft stick or a plastic spoon, which catches/holds the skimmed off excess.) 
One key is not too heavy, you'll always apply more than you need and it's easier not having to handle so much excess while tooling.
PUSH the sillycone (ahead of the tip) while caulking rather than pulling the sillycone behind the tip.  That helps force it into the slot and with practice, the poly plastic tip leaves a suitable slight concave or 45 deg finish (depending on how you cut the tip and position the tube) w/o further tooling the surface.

If the interior trim is missing, some have used gray backer rod (1/2" maybe?) to fill the channel.  Not professional,.but better than before and looks ok.