M25 Engine Removal


John O
 

First time larger sailboat owner (4 mo ago)  getting ready to pull the M25 engine out of my 1986 Catalina 30 MK I to change the damper plate.  The boat is on the hard.  I’ll be using the boom / chain lift to remove the engine and have a few questions…

Is it better to entirely remove the motor mounts or just remove the top nut on each?  The motor mounts seem to be in good shape and mounting bolts appear to have been replaced not too long ago. 

My marina winterized the engine without pulling antifreeze through the raw water intake (engine issue at the time) and we still have temps in the 20s.  Are there any freezing issues I should be concerned about when pulling the heat exchanger?  I’m assuming the coolant will run out of the exhaust manifold and engine block?

Anything to do / expect with disconnecting the fuel lines when other than plug them and keep them above the level of the water seperator / fuel tank?

Thanks.


gvsho
 

Hi John...here’s a link I found describing something similar.


Good luck with your project.

Greg


KWKloeber
 

John

I thought the plate could be changed by lifting the aft end?

Here's some info - see the link mentioned (that has photos.)
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10436.0.html

If the Hx severely froze it could, I suppose, have developed a leak between the raw water and closed system sides, or popped the end caps.  The Hx is pretty tough though. 
You might have a radiator shop pressure test it (and clean if needed.)  Or air/water pressure test it yourself (only ~ 15-20 psi is needed since the pressure cap is about 15 psi.)  

You can easily drain the Hx of both seawater and coolant.
You can drain the block via the petcock (below the injector pump,) and the pipe plug in the exh manifold, and if you remove the exhaust flange the exh gasket separates the coolant reservoir from the exhaust riser and coolant will drain there.  See the parts manual for those locations.
Make sure to install the gasket facing the correct direction otherwise coolant will be dumped out the exhaust when you start 'er up the first time.

If plugged, why would it matter what level the fuel hoses are at?
Shut off fuel at the tank.  Drain the fuel, by removing the secondary filter. 
You could drain any fuel left anywhere in lines if you want to.  Or plug them off.

-ken
 


John O
 

Thanks for the replies.  I like the idea on the C350 site of using a carriage bolt to raise the back of the engine and that link has a lot of useful information.  On the M25, the rear motor mounts connect direct to a flange on the bell housing, which needs to be removed, so I don't think that will work (motor mount bolt at bottom of first pic).  Greg provided a link to a post where a guy in the Bahamas inflated a boat fender to support the engine (from under the oil pan?).  I'm not sure I trust my fenders to carry 300+lbs.  Is the space between the stringers strong enough to support that kind of weight?  If so, perhaps I could raise the front of the engine with a hoist and put a block of wood beneath the engine-side flange that the bell housing attaches to (see second pic)?  If none of this is recommended, then I'd appreciate thoughts on removing the entire motor mounts, or just the top nuts since my alignment is pretty good.



John Osborne
 

When I needed to rebuild my transmission and replace the plate, I used my old boom vang block and tackle to lift the engine. I hooked the main halyard to the end of the boom for support  and was able to hoist the engine off the mounts enough to remove the bottom bolts on the bell housing. You need to lift the engine about 6” to get the bell housing and transmission to clear everything . I set the rear of the engine on a 2x4 that I cut to size to fit across the stringers. This gives you a solid base for the engine while you wrestle with the bolts holding the plate. 

I did the first lift and replace by myself the first time. The second time I had a crew member helping and it made it very easy to do. Always easier the second time.


John Osborne


On Feb 28, 2021, at 12:00 PM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

Thanks for the replies.  I like the idea on the C350 site of using a carriage bolt to raise the back of the engine and that link has a lot of useful information.  On the M25, the rear motor mounts connect direct to a flange on the bell housing, which needs to be removed, so I don't think that will work (motor mount bolt at bottom of first pic).  Greg provided a link to a post where a guy in the Bahamas inflated a boat fender to support the engine (from under the oil pan?).  I'm not sure I trust my fenders to carry 300+lbs.  Is the space between the stringers strong enough to support that kind of weight?  If so, perhaps I could raise the front of the engine with a hoist and put a block of wood beneath the engine-side flange that the bell housing attaches to (see second pic)?  If none of this is recommended, then I'd appreciate thoughts on removing the entire motor mounts, or just the top nuts since my alignment is pretty good.

<dummyfile.0.part>

<dummyfile.1.part>

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


Steve
 

John, 
Is there a reason to remove the engine?
I replaced the damper and added a new transmission, all I did was slip the shaft back and removed the nuts from the 2 rear motor mounts so that I could tilt the motor up at the rear to get to the bellhouse bolts.
I used a steel wire strap on the 2 rings on top of the motor and the boom with a block to lift it.
I took my heat ex to a radiator shop and had it cleaned and tested, then coated with phosphate primer and ford engine paint.
Same for the bell house.
Also while it's up get a new hose to mount the muffler, it has a rounded center to help with vibration.
I hit all the rusted areas with a metal brush, then rust converter paint, then Ace Hardware Antique metallic gold, all the thin metal I don't want to pop though.
New hoses & proper European clamps.

20200403_164919.jpg
5 20191124_102540.jpg20191116_131555.jpg
20191214_132238.jpg

Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 7:49 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

First time larger sailboat owner (4 mo ago)  getting ready to pull the M25 engine out of my 1986 Catalina 30 MK I to change the damper plate.  The boat is on the hard.  I’ll be using the boom / chain lift to remove the engine and have a few questions…

Is it better to entirely remove the motor mounts or just remove the top nut on each?  The motor mounts seem to be in good shape and mounting bolts appear to have been replaced not too long ago. 

My marina winterized the engine without pulling antifreeze through the raw water intake (engine issue at the time) and we still have temps in the 20s.  Are there any freezing issues I should be concerned about when pulling the heat exchanger?  I’m assuming the coolant will run out of the exhaust manifold and engine block?

Anything to do / expect with disconnecting the fuel lines when other than plug them and keep them above the level of the water seperator / fuel tank?

Thanks.



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


Steve
 

I used a couple 2 x 4 pieces to prop up the damper side of the engine, stuck one in from each side to create a variable V, lift and stuff.


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:00 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks for the replies.  I like the idea on the C350 site of using a carriage bolt to raise the back of the engine and that link has a lot of useful information.  On the M25, the rear motor mounts connect direct to a flange on the bell housing, which needs to be removed, so I don't think that will work (motor mount bolt at bottom of first pic).  Greg provided a link to a post where a guy in the Bahamas inflated a boat fender to support the engine (from under the oil pan?).  I'm not sure I trust my fenders to carry 300+lbs.  Is the space between the stringers strong enough to support that kind of weight?  If so, perhaps I could raise the front of the engine with a hoist and put a block of wood beneath the engine-side flange that the bell housing attaches to (see second pic)?  If none of this is recommended, then I'd appreciate thoughts on removing the entire motor mounts, or just the top nuts since my alignment is pretty good.




--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


Steve
 

PS
Yes you just pull the double nuts off the top of the mount, that way the engine will stay close to alignment.
Once I lifted the motor I removed the bell house plate and cleaned and coated with rust converter.
THis stuff is great, wire brush and slap it on, turns the rust black and leaves a polymer finish that you can paint.

image.png


Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 7:49 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

First time larger sailboat owner (4 mo ago)  getting ready to pull the M25 engine out of my 1986 Catalina 30 MK I to change the damper plate.  The boat is on the hard.  I’ll be using the boom / chain lift to remove the engine and have a few questions…

Is it better to entirely remove the motor mounts or just remove the top nut on each prior to pulling the motor?  The motor mounts seem to be in good shape and mounting bolts appear to have been replaced somewhat recently. 

My marina winterized the engine without pulling antifreeze through the raw water intake (engine issue at the time) and we still have temps in the 20s.  Are there any freezing issues I should be concerned about when pulling the heat exchanger?  I’m assuming the coolant will run out of the exhaust manifold and engine block?

Anything to do / expect with disconnecting the fuel lines when other than plug them and keep them above the level of the water separator / fuel tank?




--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


John O
 

Thanks for your replies, John and Steve.   I like the idea of not removing the engine, but wasn't sure if raising the back end would stress the bolts on the front motor mounts.  Thanks for sending the great pics.  My heat ex is new, but doesn't shine like the Mustang I wish I had.  Your bell housing looks great too.  I can definitely put the rust treatment to use.  I have also thought about replacing the exhaust pipe... but my list is growing.  Need to do the alternator bracket replacement as well.  My transmission is an unknown.  Can one take a transmission to a shop to be tested?  My marina told me likely damper plate replacement and possible transmission issues.  I'm also questioning the starter.  This past fall, on two occasions, I mistakenly turned off the engine with the key instead of the fuel shut-off lever.  Rookie mistake, I acknowledge, but it stopped the engine immediately with a ka-thunk each time.  My understanding is that might cause some issues with my alternator (diodes?),shouldn't shut the engine down. I can't think of another way that turning off the key switch would cause the engine to stop so abruptly.  


John Osborne
 

Pulling the engine did not require that much time once the fuel lines and wiring was disconnected. You have to pull the bell housing and transmission anyway. When you have it hoisted, you can easily get to the alt bracket, starter and even the oil pan to install a banjo fitting to easily change the oil. Plus you can clean all of the crap that accumulates under there as well as find all those missing nuts, bolts, screws and fitting from the past 35 years. 


On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:31 PM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

Thanks for your replies, John and Steve.   I like the idea of not removing the engine, but wasn't sure if raising the back end would stress the bolts on the front motor mounts.  Thanks for sending the great pics.  My heat ex is new, but doesn't shine like the Mustang I wish I had.  Your bell housing looks great too.  I can definitely put the rust treatment to use.  I have also thought about replacing the exhaust pipe... but my list is growing.  Need to do the alternator bracket replacement as well.  My transmission is an unknown.  Can one take a transmission to a shop to be tested?  My marina told me likely damper plate replacement and possible transmission issues.  I'm also questioning the starter.  This past fall, on two occasions, I mistakenly turned off the engine with the key instead of the fuel shut-off lever.  Rookie mistake, I acknowledge, but it stopped the engine immediately with a ka-thunk each time.  My understanding is that might cause some issues with my alternator (diodes?),shouldn't shut the engine down. I can't think of another way that turning off the key switch would cause the engine to stop so abruptly.  

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


KWKloeber
 

John,

 >> I'm also questioning the starter.  This past fall, on two occasions, I mistakenly turned off the engine with the key instead of the fuel shut-off lever.  Rookie mistake, I acknowledge, but it stopped the engine immediately with a ka-thunk each time.  My understanding is that might cause some issues with my alternator (diodes?),shouldn't shut the engine down. I can't think of another way that turning off the key switch would cause the engine to stop so abruptly. <<
 
Turning off the key:
  • Has nada to do with the starter once the engine is running, or stopping the engine per se.
  • It will shut off the fuel lift pump, but typically there's plenty of fuel in the lines and the engine will keep running (at least my m-25 does.)
  • It will de-energize the alternator field excite circuit, but once the alt is already charging that shouldn't make any difference (the field excite simply wakes up the alt at a low RPM.)
  • Depower the gauges and tach.
 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Steve
 

John,
The transmission was 1,000 bucks and a rebuild was almost the same, the only change is the shifter is on the left instead of right side so you have to fabricate the bracket to hold the cable. I replaced the shift and throttle cables with new ones.
Not a big deal but the company I bought from said some parts don't wear well in the rebuild but they do both and I choose new.
I thought my trans broke but it was really the flex disk that failed.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks for your replies, John and Steve.   I like the idea of not removing the engine, but wasn't sure if raising the back end would stress the bolts on the front motor mounts.  Thanks for sending the great pics.  My heat ex is new, but doesn't shine like the Mustang I wish I had.  Your bell housing looks great too.  I can definitely put the rust treatment to use.  I have also thought about replacing the exhaust pipe... but my list is growing.  Need to do the alternator bracket replacement as well.  My transmission is an unknown.  Can one take a transmission to a shop to be tested?  My marina told me likely damper plate replacement and possible transmission issues.  I'm also questioning the starter.  This past fall, on two occasions, I mistakenly turned off the engine with the key instead of the fuel shut-off lever.  Rookie mistake, I acknowledge, but it stopped the engine immediately with a ka-thunk each time.  My understanding is that might cause some issues with my alternator (diodes?),shouldn't shut the engine down. I can't think of another way that turning off the key switch would cause the engine to stop so abruptly.  



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


John O
 

John,  I believe I have the banjo fitting.  Up until last Saturday, I thought it must be some sort of back up fuel line, but traced it to the bottom of the oil pan.  I may still pull the engine for ease of access, but am working on a bit of a tight timeframe and I know that whatever time I think the work will take, I need to multiply by 3.


John O
 

Steve,

That math makes sense to me, but I'm trying not to spend a thousand bucks if my transmission is ok.  Wondering if one can have it bench tested.  Is a flex disc another name for damper plate? 


John O
 

Ken,

Thanks for that info. I get that the starter shouldn't have anything to do with the ka-thunk, I just can't think of any other electrical function that would shut the engine down so fast and with that sound.  When the fuel supply is shut off with stop lever in the cockpit, the engine slows down and stops in the normal manner I have heard on other diesels.  This was not the case when I turned the key, so I'm guessing it isn't the fuel lift pump.


John Osborne
 

When your damper plate fails the springs break and come out of the plate. These loose springs can get caught between the bell housing and the flywheel and jam. 
Pull the starter motor and you have an inspection opening until that area. Insert a magnet and see what you find. 
If you find a spring you will still want to replace the plate. 


On Mar 2, 2021, at 4:57 AM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

Ken,

Thanks for that info. I get that the starter shouldn't have anything to do with the ka-thunk, I just can't think of any other electrical function that would shut the engine down so fast and with that sound.  When the fuel supply is shut off with stop lever in the cockpit, the engine slows down and stops in the normal manner I have heard on other diesels.  This was not the case when I turned the key, so I'm guessing it isn't the fuel lift pump.

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


Steve
 

John,
Yes the damper plate, I don't know if they can test the trans without taking it apart, I don't think mine failed, the damper plate broke all the springs and was spinning. You might as well just replace it and she how it goes.
Testing smells like $$$$ it cost me $100 just to have the heat exchanger dipped and tested, not a lot of autos with radiators that can be repaired, he said this thing was really stout, looked like they kept busy with off highway stuff. I have another HX in the garage but don't know why the PO had a second, it's not new.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:35 AM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Steve,

That math makes sense to me, but I'm trying not to spend a thousand bucks if my transmission is ok.  Wondering if one can have it bench tested.  Is a flex disc another name for damper plate? 



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


KWKloeber
 

John O

Which panel does she have? Do you have a start button or use the key to crank ‘er?


John Osborne
 

My 84 has a key to start and button for glow plug


On Mar 2, 2021, at 6:52 AM, KWKloeber via groups.io <KWKloeber@...> wrote:

John O

Which panel does she have? Do you have a start button or use the key to crank ‘er?

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


KWKloeber
 

Ok that didn’t work very well. LOL. My bad. 

John O’N, your panel?


John O
 

The other John O.,  Good idea on pulling the starter to get a glimpse inside the bell housing. That hadn't occurred to me.  

Steve,  I found a guy who owns an auto / marine transmission shop an hour away. He said he could probably tell just fiddling (my word, not his) with it.  First time out of the slip the week I bought the boat (5 mo ago), the engine overheated.  The marina suggested upgrading to a 3 inch heat ex, which I went with.  I think the part was only $250+- and no problems since.  If I had known what was involved with that job at the time, I would have replaced it myself, but didn't want to lose what was left of the sailing season.

Ken,  Here' s the panel.  Push button start.  Glow plugs activate by 2nd (spring loaded) position on the key switch.  Panel was replaced by PO along with all or most of the wiring.  He took good care of the boat.






KWKloeber
 

J ON

Ok I had a v-e-r-y  l-o-n-g  s-h-o-t idea how the key might be involved but your panel throws that out my window. 

I’m still stumped why the key would shut down your m25.  I’ve inadvertently flipped the key and never a cough or burp. 
Diesels run and run and run only on air and fuel. 

A thought - if you want to email a bunch of pics from all angles I could take a look see and maybe spot some issues you might want to take care of (besides the Hx which you did.)

Ken K

Sent from my phone

On Mar 2, 2021, at 3:30 PM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

The other John O.,  Good idea on pulling the starter to get a glimpse inside the bell housing. That hadn't occurred to me.  

Steve,  I found a guy who owns an auto / marine transmission shop an hour away. He said he could probably tell just fiddling (my word, not his) with it.  First time out of the slip the week I bought the boat (5 mo ago), the engine overheated.  The marina suggested upgrading to a 3 inch heat ex, which I went with.  I think the part was only $250+- and no problems since.  If I had known what was involved with that job at the time, I would have replaced it myself, but didn't want to lose what was left of the sailing season.

Ken,  Here' s the panel.  Push button start.  Glow plugs activate by 2nd (spring loaded) position on the key switch.  Panel was replaced by PO along with all or most of the wiring.  He took good care of the boat.

<dummyfile.0.part>





Steve
 

Great John,
Hopefully he can apply pressure and see if the clutch slips and at what ftlbs.
While its out, clean it and paint it, also do a good clean out of the tranny fluid and refill, you might be able to coax any junk in the bottom out.
I was 3 hours out of Seattle after buying the boat when my damper failed, I didn't know what was making the noise, assumed it was the transmission, wish I had pulled it apart first. I sailed back to Seattle and put a brand new 9.9 high thrust Yamaha on it for 3K and it has been working ever since, now I find out I need a new prop shaft strut so still not running full time on my tranny. Always something.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 12:30 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
The other John O.,  Good idea on pulling the starter to get a glimpse inside the bell housing. That hadn't occurred to me.  

Steve,  I found a guy who owns an auto / marine transmission shop an hour away. He said he could probably tell just fiddling (my word, not his) with it.  First time out of the slip the week I bought the boat (5 mo ago), the engine overheated.  The marina suggested upgrading to a 3 inch heat ex, which I went with.  I think the part was only $250+- and no problems since.  If I had known what was involved with that job at the time, I would have replaced it myself, but didn't want to lose what was left of the sailing season.

Ken,  Here' s the panel.  Push button start.  Glow plugs activate by 2nd (spring loaded) position on the key switch.  Panel was replaced by PO along with all or most of the wiring.  He took good care of the boat.





Attachments:



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


John O
 

Here's a pic of the damper plate.  Looks like the springs are where they're supposed to be, which in this case is a bad thing because it means there is some other issue causing my engine to shut down hard. I'd like to see if I can repeat part of that noise by hand turning the engine now that the transmission is off.  How can I turn the engine manually and will pressing (holding?) the decompression lever make it easier?  Thanks.  


Steve
 

That damper looked like mine only the springs were gone, don't know if you can view it without removing but the springs are not very thick.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 7:01 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here's a pic of the damper plate.  Looks like the springs are where they're supposed to be, which in this case is a bad thing because it means there is some other issue causing my engine to shut down hard. I'd like to see if I can repeat part of that noise by hand turning the engine now that the transmission is off.  How can I turn the engine manually and will pressing (holding?) the decompression lever make it easier?  Thanks.  

Attachments:



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


Rick Caselli
 

John
Your damper plate is so rusty I couldn’t imagine it working. The plate absorbes vibrations and instantaneous surges to smooth out the loading on the engine. 
Mine had a spring or two broken. You could be minutes away from them breaking
Rick Caselli
Dana Point, CA
SR fin keel #1983
1980 now Beta 20

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 7:01 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here's a pic of the damper plate.  Looks like the springs are where they're supposed to be, which in this case is a bad thing because it means there is some other issue causing my engine to shut down hard. I'd like to see if I can repeat part of that noise by hand turning the engine now that the transmission is off.  How can I turn the engine manually and will pressing (holding?) the decompression lever make it easier?  Thanks.  

Attachments:


John Osborne
 

Hey John, this might be crazy but could you have a line wrap on your propeller? I had it happen once and it brought the engine to a sudden stop. Once you went to neutral, engine started and ran fine till I put it back in gear. 

Do you have a waterproof go-pro that you can use to look at the prop?

I would agree on replacing the damper now that you have everything out. They all go at some point which is their purpose to absorb shock.

John Osborne


On Mar 8, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Rick Caselli <Recaselli2@...> wrote:


John
Your damper plate is so rusty I couldn’t imagine it working. The plate absorbes vibrations and instantaneous surges to smooth out the loading on the engine. 
Mine had a spring or two broken. You could be minutes away from them breaking
Rick Caselli
Dana Point, CA
SR fin keel #1983
1980 now Beta 20

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 7:01 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here's a pic of the damper plate.  Looks like the springs are where they're supposed to be, which in this case is a bad thing because it means there is some other issue causing my engine to shut down hard. I'd like to see if I can repeat part of that noise by hand turning the engine now that the transmission is off.  How can I turn the engine manually and will pressing (holding?) the decompression lever make it easier?  Thanks.  

Attachments:


--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


KWKloeber
 

Yeah but here’s the rub.  
He says it happens only when he turns off the KEY.   The key shouldn’t kill the engine  - except eventually if the lift pump stops delivering fuel and it doesn’t siphon/draw naturally from the tank.  

(The C34 will run w/o the pump because a half-full tank will siphon.)

Ken K

Sent from my phone

On Mar 8, 2021, at 6:05 PM, John Osborne via groups.io <osborne.john@...> wrote:

Hey John, this might be crazy but could you have a line wrap on your propeller? I had it happen once and it brought the engine to a sudden stop. Once you went to neutral, engine started and ran fine till I put it back in gear. 

Do you have a waterproof go-pro that you can use to look at the prop?

I would agree on replacing the damper now that you have everything out. They all go at some point which is their purpose to absorb shock.

John Osborne


On Mar 8, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Rick Caselli <Recaselli2@...> wrote:


John
Your damper plate is so rusty I couldn’t imagine it working. The plate absorbes vibrations and instantaneous surges to smooth out the loading on the engine. 
Mine had a spring or two broken. You could be minutes away from them breaking
Rick Caselli
Dana Point, CA
SR fin keel #1983
1980 now Beta 20

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 7:01 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here's a pic of the damper plate.  Looks like the springs are where they're supposed to be, which in this case is a bad thing because it means there is some other issue causing my engine to shut down hard. I'd like to see if I can repeat part of that noise by hand turning the engine now that the transmission is off.  How can I turn the engine manually and will pressing (holding?) the decompression lever make it easier?  Thanks.  

Attachments:


--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


John O
 

No line around the prop.  I was able to spin the shaft freely last fall. and she' sitting on the hard presently.   Yes, the damper plate is very rusty and I have a new plate from PYI in my truck.  

The issue of turning the key and shutting down the engine happened 2 or 3 times (too many years of turning off my small power boat that way).  The first time(s), I didn't see any issue other than the engine stopped (wierd, but it would start again the next time).  Below is an email excerpt I sent my marina when it occurred the last time...

I shut the engine off, but with the ignition, not the fuel cut off handle. The engine stopped immediately with a fairly heavy ka-thunk noise. I tried to start it back up and it did not turn over, just a thunk noise each time I turned the key, almost as if the starter was barely engaging.  My batteries show 13 volts on the panel.   After waiting a while, it eventually started again, after struggling - almost as if the batteries weren't charged ( they show 13 volts on the analog meter on the electrical panel), and it ran for a while at 1500 rpm when it started to make an intermittent sharp clicking noise. In a short period of time, the noise became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  It has oil, had a constant flow of water out the exhaust and ran the entire time at 160 degrees.

I'm taking the transmission to a shop today to see if they can determine if it caused the abrupt shut downs.   I'd like to start the engine without the transmission because that would tell me if it's a problem within the engine itself, and not the damper / transmission.  I'm wondering if I could reinstall the bell housing without the damper plate to accomplish that.  Not sure it would be a good idea to try to start it without bell housing and only attached on the forward motor mounts and right now it's propped up with 2 x 6s under the fly wheel a la Steve.  I'd have to run a hose to the raw water intake, but have seen others do that.  

Thank you all for your help.


Steve
 

Yes John,
I bought a set of infinitely variable height 2 x 6 from Harbor Freight :) 
I would suggest you do a compression check just to see that it's not a ring or something.
Pull the belt off and see how easy it turns, maybe pull the glow plugs so there is no compression.
Hope it's not a rod or something.



Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 7:19 AM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
No line around the prop.  I was able to spin the shaft freely last fall. and she' sitting on the hard presently.   Yes, the damper plate is very rusty and I have a new plate from PYI in my truck.  

The issue of turning the key and shutting down the engine happened 2 or 3 times (too many years of turning off my small power boat that way).  The first time(s), I didn't see any issue other than the engine stopped (wierd, but it would start again the next time).  Below is an email excerpt I sent my marina when it occurred the last time...

I shut the engine off, but with the ignition, not the fuel cut off handle. The engine stopped immediately with a fairly heavy ka-thunk noise. I tried to start it back up and it did not turn over, just a thunk noise each time I turned the key, almost as if the starter was barely engaging.  My batteries show 13 volts on the panel.   After waiting a while, it eventually started again, after struggling - almost as if the batteries weren't charged ( they show 13 volts on the analog meter on the electrical panel), and it ran for a while at 1500 rpm when it started to make an intermittent sharp clicking noise. In a short period of time, the noise became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  It has oil, had a constant flow of water out the exhaust and ran the entire time at 160 degrees.

I'm taking the transmission to a shop today to see if they can determine if it caused the abrupt shut downs.   I'd like to start the engine without the transmission because that would tell me if it's a problem within the engine itself, and not the damper / transmission.  I'm wondering if I could reinstall the bell housing without the damper plate to accomplish that.  Not sure it would be a good idea to try to start it without bell housing and only attached on the forward motor mounts and right now it's propped up with 2 x 6s under the fly wheel a la Steve.  I'd have to run a hose to the raw water intake, but have seen others do that.  

Thank you all for your help.



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


KWKloeber
 

Ok so now we have more of the story?  Initially was just that the diesel shut down “hard” using the key but ok using the fuel shutoff lever.  No indication of a possible lock up or or klunk/no crank or whatever.   
So does she (did she) always start ok (say after a cool down/rest)?  

No need to pull plugs to troubleshoot/decompress. Did you try spinning the starter with the decomposition lever engaged or turning her by hand by the crank pulley?

I presume the klunk/no-crank WAS NOT due to a water-locked cylinder (siphon thru the vented loop)?

Still, I don’t see why the key-off would correspond to any shutdown (possibly totally unrelated?)  Is there ANY PO mods we should be aware of?

I had thought before (but your panel setup negates this) that some weird key switch terminal problem might cause the starter engaging (trying to) when turning the key off of the I position.  Very oddball, but IT IS a boat after all. 
Still that shouldn’t lock up because, even if the starter engaged the flywheel, these Denso starters use a pinion drive called an ‘overriding clutch’ (opposed to a ‘bendix’ drive) so it **should** spin free if engaged.  If the drive clutch were bound up you **should** notice a problem when starting. 
Again the above wouldn’t be a way-out possibility because you have a separate start button. 

Is the ‘tapping’ more of a higher pitched ticking, like a valve/push rod lash tic-tic-tic or something sounding more drastic (deeper wrist pin, rod bearing noise) rap-rap-rap?

The hard starting **could be** coincidental to the shutdown klunk. I had an issue yrs ago (winter sub-freezing hard-starting) where the battery in my van would crank fine the first time, but would not a second.  After resting a period she’d crank fine again.  Battery voltage was perfect but there was no ooomph after the first crank and quickly died. 


On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 7:19 AM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
No line around the prop.  I was able to spin the shaft freely last fall. and she' sitting on the hard presently.   Yes, the damper plate is very rusty and I have a new plate from PYI in my truck.  

The issue of turning the key and shutting down the engine happened 2 or 3 times (too many years of turning off my small power boat that way).  The first time(s), I didn't see any issue other than the engine stopped (wierd, but it would start again the next time).  Below is an email excerpt I sent my marina when it occurred the last time...

I shut the engine off, but with the ignition, not the fuel cut off handle. The engine stopped immediately with a fairly heavy ka-thunk noise. I tried to start it back up and it did not turn over, just a thunk noise each time I turned the key, almost as if the starter was barely engaging.  My batteries show 13 volts on the panel.   After waiting a while, it eventually started again, after struggling - almost as if the batteries weren't charged ( they show 13 volts on the analog meter on the electrical panel), and it ran for a while at 1500 rpm when it started to make an intermittent sharp clicking noise. In a short period of time, the noise became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  became very rapid and the engine shut down hard. I could not get the shifter back into neutral.  It has oil, had a constant flow of water out the exhaust and ran the entire time at 160 degrees.

I'm taking the transmission to a shop today to see if they can determine if it caused the abrupt shut downs.   I'd like to start the engine without the transmission because that would tell me if it's a problem within the engine itself, and not the damper / transmission.  I'm wondering if I could reinstall the bell housing without the damper plate to accomplish that.  Not sure it would be a good idea to try to start it without bell housing and only attached on the forward motor mounts and right now it's propped up with 2 x 6s under the fly wheel a la Steve.  I'd have to run a hose to the raw water intake, but have seen others do that.  

Thank you all for your help.


John O
 

Ken, my kids would tell you I'm not known for leaving out too many details.  :)    

I don't recall any issues starting the engine after what I believe were the first two turn offs / ka-thunks  of the engine using the key. The ka-thunk was not a particularly loud or sharp noise and softer tone  - very quick and not the hard shut down (metal screeching sound) referred to after my last outing.  In general, she has started easily, once I understood that glow plugs were something to be activated each time she was cold, however I purchased the boat in early September and only used it a half dozen times or so.  The first time I took her out after purchase, was a short ride with my son with the motor only (no wind at all) and she overheated.  That resulted in the new 3" heat exchanger the following week.  She started and ran fine after that and no signs of any damage.

I have not tried spinning the starter with the decompression lever pulled or turning her by hand using the crank pulley, but I will do the latter.  Is that a clockwise rotation of the crank pulley and should I engage the decompression lever for that as well?  If I do this slowly, even with the decompression lever engaged, am I right that it's not going to start the engine like my long deceased great uncle's tractor? The yard (very good reputation) did spin it by hand after my last outing (ref email excerpt in last message) and in re-reading their response to me again, they said they could hear a 'grinding' noise emanating from  the area of the bell housing.  Then, they tried to start it and observed it wouldn't start,  as if the batteries were low, but they weren't.  They turned it by hand again, got more grinding, and then started the engine without difficulty.  It ran fine for a short period of time and then  shut down hard by whatever is causing the issue.  This is what led them to the damper plate loose spring hypothesis, and if not that, then the  transmission.

If the water siphon issue would have been caused by turning the ignition too long when having trouble starting, I don't believe that occurred.  I know 30 seconds max and don't come close / hasn't been an issue.  Also, I didn't sail in any significant following seas.

As far as PO mods, I recall the broker advising that one of the last things he completed prior to my purchase was finishing up a wiring project, but I don't really know to what extent or where.   A fair amount of the wiring looks newer.

Here are a couple of not super pics of the starter around the time of purchase.  I called the company that either serviced it or sold it to the PO.  They said that if the starter pinion gear (?) somehow engaged the flywheel while the engine was running, it would get sheared off. I wonder if I could remove the starter turn the key on, and then turn it off to see if it engages the pinion gear?   Again, I don't recall difficult starting except during my last outing when the 3rd and ka-thunk occurred, and it was immediately after that when, once started, the tick, tick tick (not rap, rap rap), slowly at first, then more of it, the hard shutdown (including metal screeching sounds).  In my past experience with cars, when starters began to fail, they exhibited similar symptoms to failing batteries.  Could the starter have been the noise that the yard heard in the area of the bell housing?   I don't know if the hard shutdown is directly connected to, or a result of, the key turn / ka-thunk, but I believe that key turn somehow caused the engine to turn off.  One time I might get confused in the moment, but not three times. If the transmission is the issue, I don't see how that would be related to the key turn off / ka-thunk.  
 
Despite PB Plaster on the damper plate hex bolts for a couple of days, and carefully removing rust inside the hex with a wire brush, one sheared off and one's hex is stripped (sigh....).  

Steve, I also hope it's not a rod or something.  A fix of that nature would be well beyond my experience. 

P.S. Busy work and long trips to my boat location sometimes delay my replies.  I very much appreciate your responses and sharing your knowledge with me.  Thank you!



   


KWKloeber
 

Hey John...
**below**
 
I don't recall any issues starting the engine after what I believe were the first two turn offs / ka-thunks of the engine using the key. The ka-thunk was not a particularly loud or sharp noise and softer tone  - very quick and not the hard shut down (metal screeching sound) referred to after my last outing.   
 
 
**Ok, I hear you saying that the most recent outcome had not happened before -- so an even-even chance that they are unrelated.  I was confusing the two types shutdowns.
**

I have not tried spinning the starter with the decompression lever pulled or turning her by hand using the crank pulley, but I will do the latter.  Is that a clockwise rotation of the crank pulley and should I engage the decompression lever for that as well?   
 
 
**The engine runs CW.  The DCL on the back of the engine valve cover will make it much easier to turn the crank pulley.  Don't flip the DCL with the engine running.
**
 
 If I do this slowly, even with the decompression lever engaged, am I right that it's not going to start the engine .
   
**An engine cannot start without compression in the cylinders. 
Also you couldn't pop it fast enough by hand (like w/ a tractor hand crank) to start a diesel even if there was compression.
**
 
they said they could hear a 'grinding' noise emanating from  the area of the bell housing.  Then, they tried to start it and observed it wouldn't start,  as if the batteries were low, but they weren't.  They turned it by hand again, got more grinding, and then started the engine without difficulty.  It ran fine for a short period of time and then  shut down hard by whatever is causing the issue.  This is what led them to the damper plate loose spring hypothesis, and if not that, then the  transmission. 
 
 
**Ok I was confusing the earlier shutdowns w/the KLUNK shutdown and grinding. I  presume that the yard used the stop lever, not the key.
** 
  
If the water siphon issue would have been caused by turning the ignition too long when having trouble starting, I don't believe that occurred.  I know 30 seconds max and don't come close / hasn't been an issue.  Also, I didn't sail in any significant following seas. 
 
**A stuck valve on the vented loop could result in a back-siphon into a cylinder after shutdown (thru an open exhaust valve.)  Next time you (attempt to) start it locks solid (KLUNK) when you start to crank. Water-locked solid.  Unlike air, a piston can't compress water.  Been there. 
Clean or replace the valve on the vented loop (periodic maintenance item.) 
Also you can leave the muffler petcock open when messing around cranking.
 ** 
 
They said that if the starter pinion gear (?) somehow engaged the flywheel while the engine was running, it would get sheared off.  
 
 
**Not necessarily.  I might or might not cause damage.  Either the pinion wouldn't engage, or if it did the gear on the overriding clutch (if working correctly) would spin on the pinion shaft.  It's a one-way clutch like a rear bike wheel brake.  Locks in one direction, spins free in the other direction.  So it's locked when there's resistance trying to turn the flywheel.  But a spinning flywheel (faster than the starter motor) simply turns the gear (which free-wheels in the other direction, even is the starter motor isn't running.) 
Not that engaging a starter into a running flywheel is necessarily a good idea.
**
 
I wonder if I could remove the starter turn the key on, and then turn it off to see if it engages the pinion gear?    
 
 
**You could try but I think that's a wasted effort.  Can't hurt tho. 
Need a jumper cable for the starter negative (to engine block or bell housing battery cable.)
Check that the starter pinion/gear is free moving, not getting stuck on the shaft (remains engaged in the flywheel.)  Check flywheel teeth for signs of damage.  
 
The start button engages the solenoid, which does two things:
    Closes a switch that spins the motor.
    Pulls on a pivoting yoke that pushes the pinion gear/clutch into the flywheel.
 
If the start button is OFF, there's no electrical connection to move the pinion gear.
**
 
 Could the starter have been the noise that the yard heard in the area of the bell housing?    
 
**Possible I suppose if the pinion stayed engaged.  Not if it wasn't engaged.  But that might have fried some wiring when the engine was running (if it was electrically engaged.)  If it was just stuck (pinion didn't retract with the start button released) then I suppose so.
 It sounds to me more like a plate or something rattling around against or hitting the flywheel gear.
**
 
 
I don't know if the hard shutdown is directly connected to, or a result of, the key turn / ka-thunk, but I believe that key turn somehow caused the engine to turn off.
 If the transmission is the issue, I don't see how that would be related to the key turn off / ka-thunk.
 
 
**Me neither.  The whole "key thing" doesn't make any sense (to me.)
Maybe other owners can conjure up a connection to an engine that doesn't need electricity to run.
    PO didn't install a fuel shutdown solenoid valve on the fuel line??
    Or a butterfly solenoid on the throat of the intake manifold (underneath the air "filter") to shut down a runway diesel??
**
 
 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


John O
 

Might be making some progress... 

This may fall into seeing the forest for the trees category.  I went to turn the spline of the transmission that's now in the back of my truck and I can't get it to budge using two hands when it's in neutral or in gear. I'm guessing this could be the reason the engine was having trouble starting.   

I've looked around a bit and understand that the closest Hurth to my HBW 50 is a Hurth ZF 10 M, which I've only found on Catalina Direct and is priced at a whopping $3,500.  I believe I'd also have to shorten the shaft by 1".  Sound Marine Diesels is selling a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission that is under $1,200 and their website says it's a drop-in replacement (that would be good for me).    Steve, is that the PRM 60 you have?  Am I right that it would require my engine to be a 1/4" higher (rear mount nuts are flush with top of mount bolt) and maybe 1/4" shorter prop shaft or move the mounts back 1/4"?  Did you have to replace shaft coupling and does that require anything special?  Any other thoughts on HBW 50 replacements?  I looked briefly at rebuilding myself, but parts are $400+- and I have no experience with it.  Ideally, I'd prefer not to have to put plates under the mounts or move the mounts back.  Any other thoughts?  

I put a large deep socket on the crankshaft nut and spun her while engaging the decompression lever.  Only thing I heard was a slight click every 270 degrees on the nut or so - no grinding noise - phew!

I ran into a guy on my pier who turns out to be a diesel mechanic on big rig trucks.  He said that turning the key could possibly turn the engine off.  I didn't fully understand what he was telling me, but remember something about a possible bad ground on the starter motor and, separately,  unspent excess fuel in the cylinder creating a lock which could cause a ka-thunk noise.  I still need to check the anti-siphon valve Ken mentioned.

Thanks.


John Osborne
 

Rebuilding the Hurth will guarantee a perfect fit without changing cables to the other side or changing the height and angle of the engine. You will want to realign the engine to trans either way but should be fairly close using you current transmission.

I had mine rebuilt by Silva Bay Marina in BC Canada. My total cost was $1,235 including shipping to and from Oregon. They put new clutches, bearings and seals throughout. My shafts were still fine so no cost there. They repainted it and it looked like new. They had it back to me the next week and it’s still running great.

Good luck, you are on the right track if the shaft is locked up and won’t turn. Hope that the shafts and gears are still intact other wise a new trans is in your future.
John Osborne


On Mar 12, 2021, at 1:55 PM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

Might be making some progress... 

This may fall into seeing the forest for the trees category.  I went to turn the spline of the transmission that's now in the back of my truck and I can't get it to budge using two hands when it's in neutral or in gear. I'm guessing this could be the reason the engine was having trouble starting.   

I've looked around a bit and understand that the closest Hurth to my HBW 50 is a Hurth ZF 10 M, which I've only found on Catalina Direct and is priced at a whopping $3,500.  I believe I'd also have to shorten the shaft by 1".  Sound Marine Diesels is selling a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission that is under $1,200 and their website says it's a drop-in replacement (that would be good for me).    Steve, is that the PRM 60 you have?  Am I right that it would require my engine to be a 1/4" higher (rear mount nuts are flush with top of mount bolt) and maybe 1/4" shorter prop shaft or move the mounts back 1/4"?  Did you have to replace shaft coupling and does that require anything special?  Any other thoughts on HBW 50 replacements?  I looked briefly at rebuilding myself, but parts are $400+- and I have no experience with it.  Ideally, I'd prefer not to have to put plates under the mounts or move the mounts back.  Any other thoughts?  

I put a large deep socket on the crankshaft nut and spun her while engaging the decompression lever.  Only thing I heard was a slight click every 270 degrees on the nut or so - no grinding noise - phew!

I ran into a guy on my pier who turns out to be a diesel mechanic on big rig trucks.  He said that turning the key could possibly turn the engine off.  I didn't fully understand what he was telling me, but remember something about a possible bad ground on the starter motor and, separately,  unspent excess fuel in the cylinder creating a lock which could cause a ka-thunk noise.  I still need to check the anti-siphon valve Ken mentioned.

Thanks.

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


John O
 

Thank you, John.  I do like the idea of being able to bolt it all back together with little adjustment other than mating the coupling / flange.  I spoke with a rep at Harbor Marine in WA and he recommended the ZF 12 M, which he said would require moving engine forward an inch and  3/8" shims under the mounts. Catalina Direct suggests the 12M may not fit the C30, so I'm wondering how much room there is forward of the existing mounts on the stringers.  The rebuild would certainly eliminate that need.  Did it come with a warranty?


John Osborne
 

Just looked at the receipt and it doesn’t show but I now have 4 years of regular use on it without issue. I must admit that I treat it like gold and change fluid regularly. I’ve heard that the Hurth 50 is not the best design but mine has made it 36 years with a couple of rebuilds so not too bad.

I now remember that the $1,235 were Canadian dollars and was a pleasant surprise. I’m sure it’s gone up from there but still simple.

They were great to work with.  www.silvabayshipyard.com. 

John Osborne


On Mar 12, 2021, at 4:29 PM, John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn@...> wrote:

Thank you, John.  I do like the idea of being able to bolt it all back together with little adjustment other than mating the coupling / flange.  I spoke with a rep at Harbor Marine in WA and he recommended the ZF 12 M, which he said would require moving engine forward an inch and  3/8" shims under the mounts. Catalina Direct suggests the 12M may not fit the C30, so I'm wondering how much room there is forward of the existing mounts on the stringers.  The rebuild would certainly eliminate that need.  Did it come with a warranty?

--
River Weasel
1984 #3522 M25
SRFKNBS


LACoFD122
 

When I was looking at the PRM 60 I seem to remember that the PRM 60 shifter functions opposite direction than the Hurth so the shift arm needs to be reversed to operate correctly.

Bob Thomas

 

From: Catalina30@groups.io <Catalina30@groups.io> On Behalf Of John O'Neal via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2021 1:55 PM
To: Catalina30@groups.io
Subject: Re: [catalina30] M25 Engine Removal

 

Might be making some progress... 

This may fall into seeing the forest for the trees category.  I went to turn the spline of the transmission that's now in the back of my truck and I can't get it to budge using two hands when it's in neutral or in gear. I'm guessing this could be the reason the engine was having trouble starting.   

I've looked around a bit and understand that the closest Hurth to my HBW 50 is a Hurth ZF 10 M, which I've only found on Catalina Direct and is priced at a whopping $3,500.  I believe I'd also have to shorten the shaft by 1".  Sound Marine Diesels is selling a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission that is under $1,200 and their website says it's a drop-in replacement (that would be good for me).    Steve, is that the PRM 60 you have?  Am I right that it would require my engine to be a 1/4" higher (rear mount nuts are flush with top of mount bolt) and maybe 1/4" shorter prop shaft or move the mounts back 1/4"?  Did you have to replace shaft coupling and does that require anything special?  Any other thoughts on HBW 50 replacements?  I looked briefly at rebuilding myself, but parts are $400+- and I have no experience with it.  Ideally, I'd prefer not to have to put plates under the mounts or move the mounts back.  Any other thoughts?  

I put a large deep socket on the crankshaft nut and spun her while engaging the decompression lever.  Only thing I heard was a slight click every 270 degrees on the nut or so - no grinding noise - phew!

I ran into a guy on my pier who turns out to be a diesel mechanic on big rig trucks.  He said that turning the key could possibly turn the engine off.  I didn't fully understand what he was telling me, but remember something about a possible bad ground on the starter motor and, separately,  unspent excess fuel in the cylinder creating a lock which could cause a ka-thunk noise.  I still need to check the anti-siphon valve Ken mentioned.

Thanks.


Steve
 

Well at least you found out the trans is history, yes I have the PRM and it's a direct fit, just had to remove a plate that is on the bellhouse to open the keyway. I didn't know it came out so I was pissed at first.
There is a PDF for the bracket and I had a local CNC guy make it for me, had to mod it a bit, it  stuck down too low, also the shift lever needs to do a 180 to face down.
I am thinking of flipping the shifter at the handle end so that the shift lever could go up because I had to chop part of the lever off so it wouldn't rub.
Didn't raise the engine, just aligned it to the shaft.
I have only had it out about 3 times trying to break it in before I change the fluid and it's been great so far still new.
I paid $1,014 out the door so at my age it should last my lifetime.
I replaced both throttle & shift cables at the same time so all slides very smooth.




Steve 
Razors Edge, Anacortes Washington
82 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


20191120_122850.jpg
20191121_133843.jpg20191121_133847.jpg


On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 1:55 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Might be making some progress... 

This may fall into seeing the forest for the trees category.  I went to turn the spline of the transmission that's now in the back of my truck and I can't get it to budge using two hands when it's in neutral or in gear. I'm guessing this could be the reason the engine was having trouble starting.   

I've looked around a bit and understand that the closest Hurth to my HBW 50 is a Hurth ZF 10 M, which I've only found on Catalina Direct and is priced at a whopping $3,500.  I believe I'd also have to shorten the shaft by 1".  Sound Marine Diesels is selling a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission that is under $1,200 and their website says it's a drop-in replacement (that would be good for me).    Steve, is that the PRM 60 you have?  Am I right that it would require my engine to be a 1/4" higher (rear mount nuts are flush with top of mount bolt) and maybe 1/4" shorter prop shaft or move the mounts back 1/4"?  Did you have to replace shaft coupling and does that require anything special?  Any other thoughts on HBW 50 replacements?  I looked briefly at rebuilding myself, but parts are $400+- and I have no experience with it.  Ideally, I'd prefer not to have to put plates under the mounts or move the mounts back.  Any other thoughts?  

I put a large deep socket on the crankshaft nut and spun her while engaging the decompression lever.  Only thing I heard was a slight click every 270 degrees on the nut or so - no grinding noise - phew!

I ran into a guy on my pier who turns out to be a diesel mechanic on big rig trucks.  He said that turning the key could possibly turn the engine off.  I didn't fully understand what he was telling me, but remember something about a possible bad ground on the starter motor and, separately,  unspent excess fuel in the cylinder creating a lock which could cause a ka-thunk noise.  I still need to check the anti-siphon valve Ken mentioned.

Thanks.



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


Steve
 

PS
No you don't have to cut the prop shaft, it slides back plenty far and the 1/4 " is how much further the prop is back from the strut so I don't think it makes any difference.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 1:55 PM John O'Neal via groups.io <chevyjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Might be making some progress... 

This may fall into seeing the forest for the trees category.  I went to turn the spline of the transmission that's now in the back of my truck and I can't get it to budge using two hands when it's in neutral or in gear. I'm guessing this could be the reason the engine was having trouble starting.   

I've looked around a bit and understand that the closest Hurth to my HBW 50 is a Hurth ZF 10 M, which I've only found on Catalina Direct and is priced at a whopping $3,500.  I believe I'd also have to shorten the shaft by 1".  Sound Marine Diesels is selling a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission that is under $1,200 and their website says it's a drop-in replacement (that would be good for me).    Steve, is that the PRM 60 you have?  Am I right that it would require my engine to be a 1/4" higher (rear mount nuts are flush with top of mount bolt) and maybe 1/4" shorter prop shaft or move the mounts back 1/4"?  Did you have to replace shaft coupling and does that require anything special?  Any other thoughts on HBW 50 replacements?  I looked briefly at rebuilding myself, but parts are $400+- and I have no experience with it.  Ideally, I'd prefer not to have to put plates under the mounts or move the mounts back.  Any other thoughts?  

I put a large deep socket on the crankshaft nut and spun her while engaging the decompression lever.  Only thing I heard was a slight click every 270 degrees on the nut or so - no grinding noise - phew!

I ran into a guy on my pier who turns out to be a diesel mechanic on big rig trucks.  He said that turning the key could possibly turn the engine off.  I didn't fully understand what he was telling me, but remember something about a possible bad ground on the starter motor and, separately,  unspent excess fuel in the cylinder creating a lock which could cause a ka-thunk noise.  I still need to check the anti-siphon valve Ken mentioned.

Thanks.



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25


Bill C 1984 C30 STD M25 Mystic, CT
 

If you are thinking about the Twin Disc transmission talk to the folks at Beta Marine in NC. They will forward comparative blueprints so that you can see precisely what the differences are. Hint (1/4”) length and height.
Bill C in Mystic
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Bill C
C30 std M25
3721 Mystic, CT


KWKloeber
 

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 07:29 PM, John O'Neal wrote:
I spoke with a rep at Harbor Marine in WA and he recommended the ZF 12 M, which he said would require moving engine forward an inch and  3/8" shims under the mounts.

See how tightly shoehorned-in the engine compartment is here:
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/files/Modifications%20and%20Maintenance/CTY%20Factory%20Bulletins,%20Fixes,%20Mods/CTY%20c-30%20engine%20-%20m-25%20engine%20installation%20layout.pdf
 


Steve
 

That is where I bought my trans was Harbor in Everett 


On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 4:17 PM KWKloeber via groups.io <KWKloeber=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 07:29 PM, John O'Neal wrote:
I spoke with a rep at Harbor Marine in WA and he recommended the ZF 12 M, which he said would require moving engine forward an inch and  3/8" shims under the mounts.

See how tightly shoehorned-in the engine compartment is here:
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/files/Modifications%20and%20Maintenance/CTY%20Factory%20Bulletins,%20Fixes,%20Mods/CTY%20c-30%20engine%20-%20m-25%20engine%20installation%20layout.pdf
 



--
Steve Perea
eSells
720-352-5800

--
Steve 
Razors Edge, Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes Washington
81 Catalina 30 Std rig #2522 M-25