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Re: to Sniff or to Pull! what is better...

VE2DX
 

I would have to lie to say I never heard of DXLab almost every hams on HF have ! ;P I am very happy to have you in our group... You are a reference for us...

I hope my dumb post don’t make you laugh to much! ;P trying to start exchanges... Glad you jumped in a couple of times...

please feel free to start or as you did here expand on our exchanges, as you know what we are trying to do here is to have share and answer questions on CI-V.

thanks for the references, yes I was aware of the fact that Ethernet is another protocol dealing with collision.

(Note to self... Stop using HRD in your examples and use DXLab instead... you dumbass! ;P )

73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: to Sniff or to Pull! what is better...

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

can you expand on collision detection

+ Collision detection is described in the CI-V Manual you posted in this group's Files area:

https://groups.io/g/CIV/files/CI-V%20Reference%20Manual%20Third%20Edition.pdf

+ in two sections:

- 1-6 CSMA/CD System

- 5-4 Jammer code

also what apps did you develop anything we know well...

+ I am the developer of the freeware DXLab Suite, which is comprised of 8 applications that run independently, but can detect each other's presence and interoperate automatically. Commander is the application that performs transceiver control:

https://www.dxlabsuite.com/commander/

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: to Sniff or to Pull! what is better...

VE2DX
 

great Input Dave,

can you expand on collision detection...  and N+1 approach...

also what apps did you develop anything we know well...

73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
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Re: to Sniff or to Pull! what is better...

Dave AA6YQ
 

Collisions are a normal part of the CI-V bus protocol, just as they are a normal part of the Ethernet protocol. All Icom transceivers with CI-V bus support include the logic require to detect and reject collision-damaged messages. Only the Icom PW-1 amplifier lacks this capability, and thus requires a "private" CI-V bus on which collisions cannot occur; this is a blatant defect in the PW-1 design.

An application that interacts with a CI-V bus must include collision detection or collision prevention even when the only nodes on the bus are the application a single transceiver: if the application sends CI-V commands too quickly, the transceiver's response to command N can collide with the application's command N+1.

One can attempt to prevent this from happening by never sending command N+1 until the response to command N has been received. But what happens if the response to command N is never received, perhaps because command N was damaged by RFI and thus ignored by the transceiver? How long should the application wait for a response before giving up and retransmitting the outgoing command? And if the transceiver finally sends its response just when the application has given up and is re-sending the command, there will be a collision.

Enabling a transceiver's "CI-V transceive" option to increase responsiveness to transceiver state changes will greatly increase the likelihood of collisions.

I've been developing transceiver control software since getting my novice ticket in 1990; it's successfully employed by tens of thousands of users around the world. In my experience, the best way to handle the CI-V bus is to always implement collision detection and damaged-message rejection as described in Icom's CI-V bus specification - no matter how simple the CI-V bus topology. Polling provides the ability to pace outgoing commands at a rate that the transceiver's microprocessor can reliably handle; my IC-7800 can reliably accept a new command every 25 ms, but my IC-7300 can do so every 10 ms.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


to Sniff or to Pull! what is better...

VE2DX
 

ok, let me clear the elephant in the room, no I ain't sniffing anything...  other then in my coding...

The goal of this email is to open a discussion about how to reach CI-V information on a CI-V bus like the CT17Bs to use this information within your projects...

there are basically two ways of getting information from your radios for your applications or your hardware projects...

PULL: 

Pulling information from a CI-V based radio is done for most applications like HRD, Logger32, etc... but also by OEM hardware and many of our Hardware projects.

When you use a PULL method you are basically sending commands to the radio via your CI-V bus or USB port to get specific information like frequency, band, volume settings, voltage, etc...  the more advanced the application the more PULLing it will do.

PROs;
- Accurate
- Low latency
- Great in a 1 to 1 environment.

CONs;
- High usage of the CI-V Bus
- Pron to collision in multiple device environment

you see...  The reason why it is so low latency, is because most hardware or Application that use this will be polling, and the better ones with very latency like HRD use a LOT of polling...  and I mean a LOT!

that is why this is highly pron to collisions if in a multiple device environment... Works great in a 1 to 1 environment.

SNIFF:

Sniffing is simple, if you have a multiple devices/Application environment on your CI-V bus, like Radio, HRD, Steppir, etc...  for example then if both HRD and the Steppir SDA100 are PULLING data from the radio there WILL be collisions and thus problems...

And if you don't have any application and are in a 1 to 1 environment then you MUST turn one CI-V transceive, CI-V transceive will make the radio send CI-V data on whatever is changed on the radio so that the SNIFFing device can get the info.

Mind you a lot of applications like to have CI-V transceive ON so that they can drop their latency even lower...  and this even if they are running PULL.

PROs; 
- Low collision (None!)
- Accurate as long as CI-V Tranceive is ON.

CONs;
- Latency issues can be a problem.
- Must have Transceive ON, well in a single CI-V bus with multiple radios, this will cause ALLL radios to change info at the same time and you may not want that!

Hey, I probably forgot something important! would be interested to hear from you and your experience with this...  Join in!

--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


New CI-V Meter design coming

VE2DX
 

Ok... well finally was able to debug some timing issues in the original 705SMeter design when trying to go to cabled CI-V interface and it worked...

So the new PCBs are on the way
--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: IC-720 CAT Control using Arduino Nano

VE2DX
 

interesting project thanks

any code or other documentation?
--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
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IC-720 CAT Control using Arduino Nano

Alan AG7XS
 

Hi,

If anyone is interested I put a couple of posts up on the  Icom  IC720  io/group about using an Arduino Nano to control an IC-720 via the 24 pin connector on the back by emulating an IC-746 on the Nano and then converting the command to 4 bit parallel format with appropriate DBC and RT signals.  Audio is through a USB Sound Dongle to a MacBook Air.

Here is a video of it working with WSJT-X.


73,

Alan 
AG7XS


Re: 705 meter

VE2DX
 

John,

FYI put the meter online last friday and got a BUNCH being sent all over the place even Japan, Sweden, UK, France, Downunder, etc...  WOW! keeping me way too busy!

Also looking to put together a new version soon that might address some of your issues, will be testing it in April...

so hang on!
--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: 705 meter

VE2DX
 

Hello John,

will offer this version On my website for 130$us for those interested, fully loaded and ready to go for the 705 and ICOM radios with Bluetooth like 705, just let me know your CI-V Address.

For the 7300, well not now, but I am working on a couple of things, a lot of you have been using the CT17B-6BT CI-V hub with Bluetooth, well I am working on a mod for the 705 Meter that you will be able to connect to CT17B-6BT to the 705 Meter and configure the CI-V Address thus connecting it to ANY ICOM radios from 7000 on up...

Also, as you know I have been working for... well... way too long on IMK1 a CI-V-based 8 memory keyer for 7300, 9700, 7610, etc... using capacitive touch screen ... really nice... I finally found the proper touch platform for it, larger than the 705 Meter hardware, and will be looking at integrating 705 Meter code as an added function to it, so it will show up in there! And make a GREAT multifunction platform for ANY ICOM radios probably since 7000/756Pro on up... Obviously with limited functions on older radios... But that will take time... as I Always tell my XYL! ;P

Please, drop into WWW.VE2DX.COM I should put the 705 Meter online in Project and Product section during this weekend...
--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: 705 meter

John Bain
 

I really like the meter Richard, would also look great for an ic-7300 as well as the ic-705 version. Really like it thanks for sharing. 
Very Best Wishes and Very Best Regards. 
73 John MM3UMZ.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 at 20:43, VE2DX <ve2dx@...> wrote:
Playing around with a project from F4HWM, using a small M5Stack device with really nice results...

some changes overnight to fix 3 bugs ;

- DV is not being displayed.   FIXED :D
- USB-D showing up as USB.  FIXED :D
- Power indicator showing Power setting instead of Real Power.  FIXED :D
and proper position of the S Meter at S0.




All those are fixed!

I put something on my blog last nite and will open later this week a new project page on this at WWW.VE2DX.COM 

The 705 Meter unit hooks to you network and 705 via Bluetooth, the results are really nice.
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/

--
John Bain


705 meter

VE2DX
 

Playing around with a project from F4HWM, using a small M5Stack device with really nice results...

some changes overnight to fix 3 bugs ;

- DV is not being displayed.   FIXED :D
- USB-D showing up as USB.  FIXED :D
- Power indicator showing Power setting instead of Real Power.  FIXED :D
and proper position of the S Meter at S0.




All those are fixed!

I put something on my blog last nite and will open later this week a new project page on this at WWW.VE2DX.COM 

The 705 Meter unit hooks to you network and 705 via Bluetooth, the results are really nice.
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/


Correst CI-V operating voltage

VE2DX
 

Hello gang, someone sent me a message asking a very good question, what IS the correct CI-V voltage;

The answer is fairly simple 5VDC PtoP.

The idle CI-V voltage should be 5VDC and drops to near Zero when a bit is sent!

But, I have seen different OEN devices driving CI-V all the way down to 3.3VDC and work fine.

I strongly suggest you drive any projects at 5VDC to play it safe.

Please keep in mind, if you measure using a DVM, the resulting reading is false, since depending on the data your average voltage will vary a lot!
This should be properly be measured using a Scope NOT a DVM.

Please share your projects with the group.

Hope this helps

--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Ghost CI-V commands!

VE2DX
 

If you know of a command working on another radio let's say 7610 and not listed in your other radio (good example: 7300 memory keyer commands) try it anyway...  you WILL have some interesting surprises!
--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


CI-V Manuals

VE2DX
 

Did you most newer ICOM manuals have a CI-V specific manual adapted to specifics of your radio...

it is a good ideal to ALWAYS use this manual instead of the CI-V section of the standard manual.

--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


FYI new dual LED zone Acrylic Call Sign Displays

VE2DX
 
Edited

 
 Our New VE2DX LED Acrylic Call signs are GREAT, designed so that the callsign (Left 2/3) portion is always on (if you want it!) and a separate PTT input triggers the logo portion of the sign (Right third), this beautiful Canadian made sign is custom made to your request.
Special designs can be made at your request for a 15$us fee.
Any proprietary logos (RAC, RAQI, ARRL, ICOM, etc...) must be cleared via a special legal form.
Price 45$US
Tracked Shipping fees 25$us (for Canada/USA) , on request $us (for DX)
Untracked Shipping fees 20$us (for Canada/USA) , 25$us (for DX)
More info at WWW.VE2DX.COM or ve2dx@...
-------------------
Mes nouvelles enseignes acrylique sont maintenant disponible a WWW.VE2DX.COM.  Fabriqué avec deux section distincte d'éclairage LED (Une permanente et l'autre controllé par le PTT) elles sont superbe.
Voir toutes les details pour commander au WWW.VE2DX.COM, memes les demandes speciale peuvent etre faite, cependant pour des logo commerciaux (RAC, RAQI, ARRL, ICOM, etc...) vous devrez renplir une formulaire legal special.
Prix 45$US
Expedition avec suivit : 25$US (Pour Canada/USA), DX sur demande.
Expedition sans suivit : 20$US (Pour Canada/USA), 15$ DX.
Plus d'info a WWW.VE2DX.COM ou ve2dx@...
------------------------------------------------------------------

--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: Can I operate two radios over CI-V an same CI-V HUB.

Dave AA6YQ
 

Could be debated that even Icom does not always follow properly there own standards...

+ the PW-1 is the only example I know of where Icom violates the CI-V bus specification. It has no collision detection capability whatsoever. See Larry K8UT's analysis here:

http://www.k8ut.com/wpfb-file/riding-the-ci-v-bus-by-k8ut-pdf/


And you have to be careful about OEM devices... devices like Band decoders are not always passive, some like the Band Decoder II actually can be active polling the radio, this can definitively cause a collision with other radio, devices or applications. A device like a band decoder SHOULD be passive sniffing the data on the bus if another device or application is already using the CI-V bus that needs priority...

+ I can understand why the ability to poll the radio is provided, as it may be needed in some topologies; but there must be a way to disable the polling when the only thing it's doing is creating collisions.

I have been working on a very flexible routing approach for many months, debugging at this time latency issues...but this approach does help some of these issues.

+ I've found it sufficient to provide a private CI-V bus for the PW-1, thereby eliminating any possibility of collisions. All other valid topologies are handled by collision detection and retransmission as described in the CI-V bus spec.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: Can I operate two radios over CI-V an same CI-V HUB.

VE2DX
 

I fully agree, Dave!

Could be debated that even Icom does not always follow properly there own standards...

And it is very difficult to know if all application and hardware design (firmware) apply or not the ICOM standards properly...

The issue of the Applications ALWAYS using E0... This is wrong, if multiple radios are being accessed by an application on a single CI-V bus a different controller address should be assigned.

And I agree also that putting multiple radios (that do not need to be on the bus) on the same bus bring multiple issues of collision.

And you have to be careful about OEM devices... devices like Band decoders are not always passive, some like the Band Decoder II actually can be active polling the radio, this can definitively cause a collision with other radio, devices or applications.  A device like a band decoder SHOULD be passive sniffing the data on the bus if another device or application is already using the CI-V bus that needs priority...

I have been working on a very flexible routing approach for many months, debugging at this time latency issues...but this approach does help some of these issues.

Depending on your needs you should ALWAYS keep in mind the possibilities of collisions on your CI-V bus, and look at the need to split your station into multiple CI-V Bus set up to prevent this.



--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 


Re: Can I operate two radios over CI-V an same CI-V HUB.

Dave AA6YQ
 

The CI-V protocol is defined to support interactions among multiple nodes. With more than two nodes communicating, there will likely be collisions. The protocol defines how collisions should be detected and resolved, but not all hardware devices conform to the protocol; the PW-1 amplifier, for example, is notoriously non-compliant. Furthermore, not all computer-hosted transceiver control applications conform to the protocol's collision-handling requirements.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Can I operate two radios over CI-V an same CI-V HUB.

VE2DX
 

Well, the answer is; yes and no! It depends...

One a unique hub like CT-17 or the VE2DX CT17B series, you CAN run more than one radio linked to the same computer...

But...

Yes, there is a BUT... :P

Your CI-V is an addressable protocol where each radio has a unique address AND (this is a BG ONE!!!) each computer output or application MUST also have a UNIQUE address...

And this is where we run into a problem, since on an ICOM CT17, VE2DX CT-17B-5, CT17B-6, or CT17B-6BT all the devices are on the same hub bus then if you start two sessions of HRD for example talking to two radios even via separate ports (USB and Bluetooth for example) then HRD is always using E0 as the computer.

Thus... when the 7300 responds to the HRD source1 with 28.074.00 for example, it is possible (likely!) that you will see that same freq pop up in HRD Source2 (the 9700) and then flip back and vice versa...

To fix this the source program would have to use a unique Address like E0, E1, E2, etc... and this would solve the problem since E0 would be use by the 7300 to respond and E1 would be used by the 9700.

this is RAREly available in most applications.

Solution;

Simple either install two separate hubs.

or use a VE2DX CT17B-10, this is a 10 port hub where by removing a simple jumper you can split the hub into two 5 port hubs...

And yes the CT-17B-11USB, CT17B-11BT, CT17-12USB and CT17B-12BT and coming back... I am working on new versions of these babies that will blow your pants off...

A lot more new stuff coming out soon, We finalized our IMK2-JR 7610, 7850, 7851 and 705 8 memory keyers with external M1 and M8 footswitch connectors, working on releasing next month the IMK3J3, Larger and added features IMK3 and dual radio IMK3uP, all 4 memory keyers with TONES of features...

follow us here and at WWW.VE2DX.COM


--
73
 
Richard VE2DX, Jesus Island, PQ-014

VE2DX ELECTRONIC 
WWW.VE2DX.COM
Only the Best ICOM, ERC and HRD 
https://groups.io/g/CIV
Follow my projects on www.facebook.com/VE2DX/
 

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