Topics

Off the topic


Jon NN5T
 

This is not directly related to Butternut.  Probably smart people came up to the conclusion 100 years ago, but I just cannot explain to myself.

 

What happens if different VF cables are connected in series, like my HF-2V feedline is mixed with 150’ of LMR400 (VF: 85) and 50’ of RG-213 (VF: 66) ?  Everything is working OK to me though.

 

Tks de Jon NN5T

 


Dennis W0JX
 

Jon, nothing happens unless you are trying to create an electrical quarter-wave or half-wave line section at a particular frequency. Then you would need either an analyzer or do accurate calculations to arrive at the correct length of combined lines for your desired result.

73, Dennis W0JX 



Jim Strohm
 

Hi

It's been demonstrated over and over, for decades, that you can connect different velocity factor coax and not have any problems.  Now, this assumes that the coax is of the same nominal impedance and the connectors are installed correctly.

Of course, as Dennis W0JX notes, if you're doing a quarter-wave match, then things are different.

How much different "different" is depends on your application.  We've been feeding resonant wire dipoles with random-length coax for years -- that's 50-ohm nominal coax into an antenna that's 72 ohms in free space with no ill effects, even though there's inevitably some mismatch.

73
Jim N6OTQ


On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 2:13 AM Jon NN5T <nn5t@...> wrote:

This is not directly related to Butternut.  Probably smart people came up to the conclusion 100 years ago, but I just cannot explain to myself.

 

What happens if different VF cables are connected in series, like my HF-2V feedline is mixed with 150’ of LMR400 (VF: 85) and 50’ of RG-213 (VF: 66) ?  Everything is working OK to me though.

 

Tks de Jon NN5T


Al AB2ZY
 

What makes a transformer instead of a feedline is a difference in characteristic impedance between the load and the line, not velocity factor. One you have that mismatch, the amount of impedance transformation is determined by the length in wavelengths of the transformer (using a Smith Chart, e.g.). The physical length required is calculated by using the velocity factor * wavelengths

Al
AB2ZY


Jon NN5T
 

Thanks for comments.  So if I have LMR400 and RG-213 in series, the entire length is working at the slower VF per RG-213 (VF: 66) even in the section by LMR400 ?  Just wanted to feel how coax is working.  73 Jon


 

Jon,
The slower VF of the RG213 does not slow down the propagation through the LMR400 at least at HF.  When frequencies do get higher, the coax sections may/will act differently.
Al, it would be more easy to explain that the action that takes place is due to "electrical length" of the line.  The electrical length varies as a function of the velocity factor.  In the case of the base matching transformer we use for this antenna, a quarter wave (electrical length) provides the needed 100 ohm to 50 ohm transformer to match the 20 meter base impedance to near 50 ohms.  Any 75 ohm coax would serve as a transformer provided the electrical length is determined by using the velocity factor in determining the electrical quarter wave length.  The length of the line works for 20 meters but is short enough that it acts merely as a short piece of coax at other frequencies in use on the antenna. 
--
Al
WB9UVJ


Jon NN5T
 

Al, thanks for your explanation.  Now I see how it is.  When combining 2 coaxes with different VF, the VF is only effective within its own section and it is a '50 Ohm' coax to the outside world.  Within individual LMR400 or RG213 section, its own VF is effective.  The mechanical length and the (RF) electrical length are independent.  I only used RG213 in my shack, but am mixing LMR400 and RG213 is way out in last 2 years or so.  So I just wanted to get the right understanding.  Best regards, 73 Jon


 

Jon,
Yes you can do that but I recommend a complete single piece of coax.  adding a set of connectors adds another point of failure.  LMR400 is great coax.  I used the direct burial to feed my butternut.  I laid in pvc pipe to the base but wanted the extra protection.
--
Al
WB9UVJ


Jon NN5T
 

Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.

HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890

Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon


Steven AC2XM
 

As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections. If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna. The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.

You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.

I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline

For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load. If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.

This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms. It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect. There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.

I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency. I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms. TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.

On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation. You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig). All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph. (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)

TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious. Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.

Steve

On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon


Andrew KD5RKO
 

Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format. 
Thanks,
Andrew KD5RKO

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <stevenfalco@...> wrote:
As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.

You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.

I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline

For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.

This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.

I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.

On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)

TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.

        Steve


On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
> Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
>
> HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
>
> Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
>





--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Steven AC2XM
 

I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:

1) mkdir build-linux
2) cd build-linux
3) cmake ..
4) make

That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users. Have you done any packaging using APT?

Steve

On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
Thanks,
Andrew KD5RKO
On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>> wrote:
As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.
You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.
I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline
For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.
This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.
I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.
On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)
TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.
        Steve
On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
> Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
>
> HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
>
> Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
>
--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Steven AC2XM
 

Replying to myself :)

There is also a program called "alien" that may be able to install RPM packages on Ubuntu. Here are a few links google returned:

https://www.itzgeek.com/how-tos/linux/ubuntu-how-tos/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu-11-10.html

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu

https://linuxize.com/post/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu/

In the mean time, I'll set up an Ubuntu VM so I can play around with it and see if "alien" works.

Steve

On 9/4/20 11:18 AM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io wrote:
I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:
1) mkdir build-linux
2) cd build-linux
3) cmake ..
4) make
That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users.  Have you done any packaging using APT?
    Steve
On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
Thanks,
Andrew KD5RKO

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>> wrote:

    As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.

    You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.

    I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline

    For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.

    This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.

    I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

    In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.

    On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)

    TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.

             Steve


    On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
     > Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
     >
     > HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
     >
     > Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
     >





--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Andrew KD5RKO
 

Sorry I missed the install file! I'll do a build and see if I can get it to produce a deb file. I'm using Linux Mint 20 which is Ubuntu 20.04 based.
I did see the alien option as well.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:23 AM Steven AC2XM <stevenfalco@...> wrote:
Replying to myself :)

There is also a program called "alien" that may be able to install RPM packages on Ubuntu.  Here are a few links google returned:

https://www.itzgeek.com/how-tos/linux/ubuntu-how-tos/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu-11-10.html

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu

https://linuxize.com/post/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu/

In the mean time, I'll set up an Ubuntu VM so I can play around with it and see if "alien" works.

        Steve

On 9/4/20 11:18 AM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io wrote:
> I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:
>
> 1) mkdir build-linux
> 2) cd build-linux
> 3) cmake ..
> 4) make
>
> That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users.  Have you done any packaging using APT?
>
>      Steve
>
> On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
>> Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew KD5RKO
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <stevenfalco@... <mailto:stevenfalco@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.
>>
>>     You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.
>>
>>     I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline
>>
>>     For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.
>>
>>     This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.
>>
>>     I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
>>
>>     In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.
>>
>>     On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)
>>
>>     TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.
>>
>>              Steve
>>
>>
>>     On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
>>      > Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
>>      >
>>      > HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
>>      >
>>      > Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
>>      >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew - KD5RKO
>>
>
>
>
>





--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Andrew KD5RKO
 

Got it working just using the make install instructions. Thanks!


On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:27 AM Andrew KD5RKO via groups.io <andrew.harmon=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Sorry I missed the install file! I'll do a build and see if I can get it to produce a deb file. I'm using Linux Mint 20 which is Ubuntu 20.04 based.
I did see the alien option as well.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:23 AM Steven AC2XM <stevenfalco@...> wrote:
Replying to myself :)

There is also a program called "alien" that may be able to install RPM packages on Ubuntu.  Here are a few links google returned:

https://www.itzgeek.com/how-tos/linux/ubuntu-how-tos/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu-11-10.html

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu

https://linuxize.com/post/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu/

In the mean time, I'll set up an Ubuntu VM so I can play around with it and see if "alien" works.

        Steve

On 9/4/20 11:18 AM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io wrote:
> I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:
>
> 1) mkdir build-linux
> 2) cd build-linux
> 3) cmake ..
> 4) make
>
> That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users.  Have you done any packaging using APT?
>
>      Steve
>
> On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
>> Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew KD5RKO
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <stevenfalco@... <mailto:stevenfalco@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.
>>
>>     You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.
>>
>>     I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline
>>
>>     For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.
>>
>>     This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.
>>
>>     I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
>>
>>     In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.
>>
>>     On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)
>>
>>     TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.
>>
>>              Steve
>>
>>
>>     On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
>>      > Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
>>      >
>>      > HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
>>      >
>>      > Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
>>      >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew - KD5RKO
>>
>
>
>
>





--
Andrew - KD5RKO


--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Steven AC2XM
 

Excellent. Glad to hear it.

You may have already discovered that there are two run-time requirements: gnuplot and xterm. These are needed for the plotting features on Linux.

I tried "alien" but the resulting package had a missing library. I'll play around with Ubuntu and see if I can make a proper .deb file.

Steve

On 9/4/20 1:00 PM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
Got it working just using the make install instructions. Thanks!
On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:27 AM Andrew KD5RKO via groups.io <http://groups.io> <andrew.harmon=gmail.com@groups.io <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
Sorry I missed the install file! I'll do a build and see if I can get it to produce a deb file. I'm using Linux Mint 20 which is Ubuntu 20.04 based.
I did see the alien option as well.
On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:23 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>> wrote:
Replying to myself :)
There is also a program called "alien" that may be able to install RPM packages on Ubuntu.  Here are a few links google returned:
https://www.itzgeek.com/how-tos/linux/ubuntu-how-tos/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu-11-10.html
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu
https://linuxize.com/post/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu/
In the mean time, I'll set up an Ubuntu VM so I can play around with it and see if "alien" works.
        Steve
On 9/4/20 11:18 AM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io <http://groups.io> wrote:
> I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:
>
> 1) mkdir build-linux
> 2) cd build-linux
> 3) cmake ..
> 4) make
>
> That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users.  Have you done any packaging using APT?
>
>      Steve
>
> On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
>> Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew KD5RKO
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco> <mailto:@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>>> wrote:
>>
>>     As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.
>>
>>     You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.
>>
>>     I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline
>>
>>     For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.
>>
>>     This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.
>>
>>     I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
>>
>>     In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.
>>
>>     On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)
>>
>>     TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.
>>
>>              Steve
>>
>>
>>     On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
>>      > Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
>>      >
>>      > HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
>>      >
>>      > Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
>>      >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew - KD5RKO
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Andrew - KD5RKO
--
Andrew - KD5RKO


Steven AC2XM
 

I've created the necessary files to build the TLine program on Debian-style systems. I've also uploaded a binary package for Ubuntu 18:

https://github.com/stevefalco/tline/releases/download/0.2.2/tline_0.2.2-1ubuntu1_amd64.deb

Steve

On 9/4/20 4:48 PM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io wrote:
Excellent.  Glad to hear it.
You may have already discovered that there are two run-time requirements: gnuplot and xterm.  These are needed for the plotting features on Linux.
I tried "alien" but the resulting package had a missing library.  I'll play around with Ubuntu and see if I can make a proper .deb file.
    Steve
On 9/4/20 1:00 PM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
Got it working just using the make install instructions. Thanks!

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:27 AM Andrew KD5RKO via groups.io <http://groups.io> <andrew.harmon=gmail.com@groups.io <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:

    Sorry I missed the install file! I'll do a build and see if I can get it to produce a deb file. I'm using Linux Mint 20 which is Ubuntu 20.04 based.
    I did see the alien option as well.

    On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:23 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>> wrote:

        Replying to myself :)

        There is also a program called "alien" that may be able to install RPM packages on Ubuntu.  Here are a few links google returned:

        https://www.itzgeek.com/how-tos/linux/ubuntu-how-tos/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu-11-10.html

        https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu

        https://linuxize.com/post/install-rpm-packages-on-ubuntu/

        In the mean time, I'll set up an Ubuntu VM so I can play around with it and see if "alien" works.

                 Steve

        On 9/4/20 11:18 AM, Steven AC2XM via groups.io <http://groups.io> wrote:
         > I've never made a package for debian or ubuntu, but the file "INSTALL" gives some simple instructions for doing a local build from source:
         >
         > 1) mkdir build-linux
         > 2) cd build-linux
         > 3) cmake ..
         > 4) make
         >
         > That said, if you are interested, we could collaborate to create an APT type package to make things simpler for other debian or ubuntu users.  Have you done any packaging using APT?
         >
         >      Steve
         >
         > On 9/4/20 10:59 AM, Andrew KD5RKO wrote:
         >> Nice program. How would one install this on a debian or ubuntu based system? The release files are in rpm format.
         >> Thanks,
         >> Andrew KD5RKO
         >>
         >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:59 AM Steven AC2XM <@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco> <mailto:@SteveFalco <mailto:@SteveFalco>>> wrote:
         >>
         >>     As long as there are no impedance changes, you don't have to worry about reflections.  If you do have a piece of coax with a different impedance, then it will transform the impedance of the antenna.  The amount of impedance transformation will then depend on the length of the coax and the frequency of operation.
         >>
         >>     You can see this on a Smith Chart, but since those are a bit cumbersome to use, you might be better off with a software program to do the math for you.
         >>
         >>     I wrote a program, called TLine, available for free, for Windows and Linux: https://github.com/stevefalco/tline
         >>
         >>     For the interesting case of the Butternut antenna on 20M, let's say the antenna looks exactly like a 100 ohm resistive load.  If we then connect a piece of Belden 8238 (a type of RG-11), we will see that 11.5 feet is 1/4 wave long at 14 MHz.
         >>
         >>     This coax will transform the 100 ohm antenna impedance to about 57 ohms.  It is not exactly 50 ohms, because no coax is perfect.  There will always be losses and reactive components in the coax, and TLine takes all that into account.
         >>
         >>     I put a screen-shot up here: https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/168015/0?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
         >>
         >>     In the left-hand window, I selected the coax type, length and frequency.  I also set the load (antenna) impedance to 100 ohms.  TLine shows that this coax has a characteristic impedance of 75.48, -0.47i, and the coax transforms the 100 ohm Butternut impedance to 57.29,-0.78i, which is a much better match to your rig.
         >>
         >>     On the right-hand window, we see a plot of the impedance transformation.  You can see that the imaginary part gets worse towards the middle of the matching section, hitting around -22i, but then it goes back very close to zero at the left edge of the graph (i.e. at the rig).  All the while, the real part keeps improving, until it hits around 57 at the left edge of the graph.  (Please be sure you are using the correct scale when reading the graph.)
         >>
         >>     TLine includes extensive documentation spelling out all the equations used, in case anyone is curious.  Also, the source code is licensed under the GPL, so you can read that too, if you like.
         >>
         >>              Steve
         >>
         >>
         >>     On 9/3/20 6:54 PM, Jon NN5T wrote:
         >>      > Al, I am not challenging you but I just want to know your feeling- .  >From my HF-2V in the back yard, this is the flow on the RF cable.
         >>      >
         >>      > HF-2V with 30/160 option - 30MRK RG-11 matching section - Current Choke air wound RG-213 25' - LMR-400 DB 150' - RG-213 30' through antic - DELTA 4 antenna switch - RG-214 3' jumper - RF Inquiry Current Choke - RG-214 10' jumper - LP-100A Power / SWR meter - RG-400 6' jumper - IC-PW1 amplifier - 5D-FB ? Icom's standard option 18' - TS-890
         >>      >
         >>      > Other than 10MHz option matching section, all unintended mix of 50 Ohm coaxes ;-}  Jon
         >>      >
         >>
         >>
         >>
         >>
         >>
         >> --
         >> Andrew - KD5RKO
         >>
         >
         >
         >
         >





    --     Andrew - KD5RKO


--
Andrew - KD5RKO