Date   

Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Tim N8NEU
 

Thanks for all the wonderful advice from everyone. I am a bit under the weather right now. I caught the awful flu. I have down loaded Scott's spreadsheet and will fill it out once I am recovered. I will attempt to add some longer radials (if possible since it is now snowing here in Western PA).

As far as my interest in the 6 meter band goes, I was told the 15 meter bad is basically no longer used by hams. Sounds like this may be an incorrect statement.

Presently I am into FT8 and want to learn how to use Fldigi for the other modes. Presently I have not figured out how to set up to just monitor RITTY, OLIVIA MFSK, MORSE, etc.

My next step is to learn Morse code all over again. I just barely new it to pass my Novice and Tech licenses back in the 1980s. I am getting back into the hobby after a 35 year break. That was a stupid mistake on my part. My how the hobby has changed!

73.

N8NEU -Tim


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Norman NZ5L <kopernic30@...>
 

An elevated base is also a possibility, either making your own tuned radials or buying (or building--see some previous posts of last month)
up to a dozen STR, or Stub-Tuned Radials, constructed with 300 ohm twin lead.  These are tuned multi-band counterpoises, like having a multi-band antenna.  In the Philippines I used 8 factory purchased STRs  (two kits) on my rooftop installation, and talked to The States every afternoon for a year with only my TR4C.    Height was about 16'.  You need far fewer radials for an elevated vertical.


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Fred PA3FK <killerbee1958@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 11:25 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning
 
Hi Norman,

The reason to do it like this is to avoid having all these radials running around in my garden.
Believe me, i already had quit a challenge to get this acceptance by the real boss around the house.   :-)

Trying to bury 32 or 64 radials into the (artifical) grass will not get the WAF (wife acceptance factor)

So i will stick for now with the experiment of mounting it on the water surface. I have read good stories about it, so i am interested to see how well the HF9V will perform once i have the coils corrected and have the coax routed from my shack to the HF9V (which will be another interesting project also since my shack is on the top floor of my (free standing) house.  Need to find a way to get again up the ladder and onto the roof to feed the coax into the shack and then through the shrubs around the house onto the HF9V.  Coax is already in house. 
Also here i have the mind the wife.   :-)


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Scott AC8DE
 

Indeed, I just updated both the HF6V and HF9V manuals online.

 

https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Manuals%20-%20New%20DX%20Engineering%20Versions/HF6V%20&%20HF9V/BUT-HF6V_Rev4a.pdf

 

https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Manuals%20-%20New%20DX%20Engineering%20Versions/HF6V%20&%20HF9V/BUT-HF9V_Rev4a.pdf

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Fred PA3FK
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 1:04 PM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: Re: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning

 

One more remark on the tuning guide.

The box came already with a printed manual Revision version 4. Perhaps wise to change the link to this newest installation and tuning guide?


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Scott AC8DE
 

I guess whether a person makes or buys the 6M kit comes down to how much time they want/can spend on it.  If you repurpose the 15M clamps, then making your own makes sense, as the clamps are the more difficult parts to make, along with the flat lower insulator.  They are not hard to make, but it takes time fiddling with it, as you have to pull the antenna down to get the clamp diameters right, get the small SS screws, crimp and solder up a wire to a ring, etc.  If starting from scratch, I'd imagine it will take you a couple of hours to get the aluminum , wire, screws, ring terminal and other small bits together to make it, then the time to form it, plus the cost to buy the parts you need.  The kit ready to go costs $25 from DX Engineering.  I'm all about DIY when I can (baluns/ununs and ground radial rings for instance), but sometimes it makes more sense for me to just buy the parts.  It just depends on the person's time availability.

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Al WB9UVJ
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:57 PM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: Re: [butternut] HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

 

Tim,
What the others are trying to tell you is that radials laid out on the ground will suffer from the effects of objects nearby (earth) and therefore can not really be tuned in the same manner as a counterpoise.  What you are attempting to do with radials on or just below ground is to provide a low impedance return for the antenna current.  To get that impedance low requires many radials.  Think wires in parallel.  Since you have the room it sounds like, just add to the shorter radials.  In addition to the return path, you are making the ground more efficient so that reflections from the antenna will have a good ground to work against and that provides the better low angle radiation you want for DX.
You can make your own 6M kit from parts you probably already have in your shack.  I made my own. 


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Fred PA3FK
 

One more remark on the tuning guide.

The box came already with a printed manual Revision version 4. Perhaps wise to change the link to this newest installation and tuning guide?


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

 

Tim,
What the others are trying to tell you is that radials laid out on the ground will suffer from the effects of objects nearby (earth) and therefore can not really be tuned in the same manner as a counterpoise.  What you are attempting to do with radials on or just below ground is to provide a low impedance return for the antenna current.  To get that impedance low requires many radials.  Think wires in parallel.  Since you have the room it sounds like, just add to the shorter radials.  In addition to the return path, you are making the ground more efficient so that reflections from the antenna will have a good ground to work against and that provides the better low angle radiation you want for DX.
You can make your own 6M kit from parts you probably already have in your shack.  I made my own. 


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Fred PA3FK
 
Edited

Hi Norman,

The reason to do it like this is to avoid having all these radials running around in my garden.
Believe me, i already had quit a challenge to get this setup accepted by the real boss around the house.   :-)

Trying to bury 32 or 64 radials into the (artifical) grass will not get the WAF (wife acceptance factor)

So i will stick for now with the experiment of mounting it on the water surface. I have read good stories about it, so i am interested to see how well the HF9V will perform once i have the coils corrected and have the coax routed from my shack to the HF9V (which will be another interesting project also since my shack is on the top floor of my (free standing) house.  Need to find a way to get again up the ladder and onto the roof to feed the coax into the shack and then through the shrubs around the house onto the HF9V.  Coax is already in house. 
Also here i have the mind the wife.   :-)


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Scott AC8DE
 

Fred,

 

My OCD thanks you for the reforming of the coils.  ;-D

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Fred PA3FK
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 11:04 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: Re: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning

 

Hi Scott,

How stupid.  Indeed the 80-40 meter coil is reversed. I had the 30 M initially on the 4th tap, but had to change that to get 30M in the spot i wanted it too be.
Need to find a moment with acceptable weather to make this happen.

WIll update this thread once done.

BTW; I also was a bit sceptic about the guying hardware. Was advised to use this by the supplier of the antenna however i agree a much leaner guying point hardware (like the hose you suggest)
Also i have applied Penetrox anti-oxidant to all joints and connection points. SO perhaps not visible but i did use that. 
And for your sake i will reform the coils to relieve your OCD.  :-)


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Fred PA3FK
 
Edited

Hi Scott,

How stupid.  Indeed the 80-40 meter coil is reversed. I had the 30 M initially on the 4th tap, but had to change that to get 30M in the spot i wanted it too be.
Need to find a moment with acceptable weather to correct this. 

WIll update this thread once done.

BTW; I also was a bit skeptic about the guying hardware. Was advised to use this by the supplier of the antenna however i agree a much leaner guying point hardware (like the hose you suggest)
Also i have applied Penetrox anti-oxidant to all joints and connection points. SO perhaps not visible but i did use that. 
And for your sake i will reform the coils to relieve your OCD.  :-)


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Norman NZ5L <kopernic30@...>
 

Scott

Since the subject has been brought up, I am curious as to whether the 15 M wire element can be replaced with one for 17 M?
I have an antenna for 15, so did not hook up the 15M wire on mine, as it spoiled the top symmetry, but if I could operate 17 just by lengthening it somewhat I would try that.

Norm/NZ5L


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Scott AC8DE <ac8de@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 10:14 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning
 

Fred,

 

Welcome to the fold.  Yours is a quite unusual installation; a type that I have no personal experience with tuning myself.  However, there have been a few through here over the years that did do over freshwater installations that had good results, which we talked though.  That said, I have definitely noted some significant issues that are correctable.  The thoughts are in no specific order, as I've written them down as I've looked at your photos.  Note, it would be a lot easier to dissect if you would use the excel sheet found here.  Looking at the charts doesn't give exact info.  It's close, but an excel sheet is better.

https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Tuning%20Charts/AC8DE%20Antenna%20Tuning%20Chart%20Excel%2097-2003%20format.xls

 

First, I renamed your album to start with your call sign.  It's hard to find anything over time in a folder that doesn't start with the owner's call sign.

 

SWR is NOT in indicator of antenna efficiency, so let's get that out of the way first.  SWR is only a portion of the picture.  A dummy load has perfect SWR after all.

 

  • Feed point height:  The height of the feed point above the ground plane should be a maximum of 6", with 3" being optimum.  You have your feed point at 15.75" above the water level/ground plane.  This is generally problematic for antenna tuning, but really problematic for efficiency.  Think of the results if you separate the two halves of a dipole by more than a couple inches.  Same thing with a vertical and its ground plane, as the ground plane is the "other half" of the antenna.  However, even with this high feed point, it may still be quite workable in an above water install, just understand the effect on bandwidth and efficiency.
  • Coil positions - This appears to be your biggest problem. It appears you have your 80M and 40M coils switched.  The coil with more turns (about 16-17) of the two is the 80M coil, which belongs BELOW the insulator.  The 40M coil typically has about 10 turns.
  • 80M:  If I visually drop the lowest SWR to 1:1 (which happens with Q coil adjustment), it appears that you are getting about 50 KHz of bandwidth below 2:1 by my estimate.  It should only be about 20-25KHz.  This is usually indicative of poor ground plane coupling/effect for the ground and hence, low antenna efficiency.  The usual advice is to install more radials, but in your case, I have no suggestion.  Drop the feed point as much as possible.  These comments may change considerably when you get the coils swapped.
  • 40M:  The first thing that jumps out and bites me is that your 30M coil assembly is tapped in the completely wrong place on the 40M coil.  (Although this is the wrong coil to begin with as installed.)  Its proper starting point is the 3rd or 4th turn down from the TOP of the 40M coil; usually the 4th.  I'd bet my house that the wrong coil and tapping point combination is causing your 40M problem and an improper tune of 20M.  Probably does some weird stuff to 30M as well.  These comments may also change considerable when you get the coils swapped.
  • What am I seeing in this photo?  https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/183823/14?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0  Is this a guy point?  If so, what is the big metal bracket you are using?  Seems like some massive overkill that adds capacitance and stress.  All you heed is a hose clamp and some D-rings and the smallest rope you can get.  There is very little wind loading on a Butternut, so small guy lines and light brackets are all that is needed.  It doesn't need to be any more than this, which has withstood 70 MPH winds. https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/25953/18?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
  • Once you get the 80, 40 and 30M coils all sorted out, things will be quite a bit different.  If there are any questions on tuning procedure, look at the latest version of the instructions here. https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Manuals%20-%20New%20DX%20Engineering%20Versions/HF6V%20&%20HF9V/BUT-HF9V_Rev3.pdf
  • 10M: The tune for 10M should NOT be that flat.  You should just barely pick up all the band below 2:1 and usually the ends of the band are just slightly above 2:1. This is probably the effect of the higher feed point.  Not a deal breaker, but again, is a sign of poor ground plane coupling.
  • I am not seeing any sign of anti-oxidant compound on your tubing joints or other aluminum junctions at the coils.  This is going to be problematic in short order, especially over water.  DX can sell you what you need.
  • And finally, for the love of all that is holy, reform your 80M and 40M coils.  You are killing my OCD.  Doesn't affect function, but you're killing me.  LOL

 

I won't comment on the rest of the tuning until you get those coil position issues addressed, which is key.

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Fred PA3FK
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 8:54 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning

 

Hi Experts,

Let me introduce myself a little bit first.

My name is Fred Koch, 61 years young, and radio-amateur since the 1980's.  Started my carreer as a Radio-Electronic Officer in the merchant marine so i should be aware of the theory of antenna's and tuning, however this was 40 years ago and i have not been very active in the hobby so my knowledge has faded a lot i notice. 

But recently picked up the hobby again and in the weekend of November 9/10 2019 i have installed a HF9V into the ditch behind my house and tried to tune it.
The antenna is installed into the ditch, and the ditch holds about 1 M water depth.  I first drove a 3,5 M pole into the earth and then mounted the base of the HF9V (Pole A) so it is about 40 cm above the water level. (see pictures in the album).
Note that the ditch is not a salt water ditch, however from reading on the internet, i have found several posting showing good results putting the HF9V up this way without using radials.
As a ex R/O i will be using CW only (with perhaps an incidental exception for SSB) so i am aiming to have the best SWR around the lower portion of the bands.

Assembly of the HF9V was feasible, however i do recognize that the instructions could be improved here and there but i think i got it right in the end.

And then the tuning begins.
I have a Mini60S as antenna analyzer and there are some strange results i would like your thoughts about. (see picture in my album where i uploaded the outcome of the scans i did)

To start from lowest to highest band 
6 M:  Min SWR (1,49) at 48900..  This weekend the dip was properly at 50.000 so it seems i need to tune the 6M wire a little again but overall this seems like an acceptable SWR graph
10M: Min  SWR (1,41) at 27850 and overall very flat.  Perfect (see Improved 10M scan)
12 M: Min SWR (2,64) at 26500. Way off. This is with 12M coil fully compressed (see pictures) as per initial tuning instructions. However when extending the 12 M coil nothing changes.
15M: Min SWR (1,45) at 20975 with enough bandwith so the 28.000 -28.100 is workable.  Fine with me
17M:: MIn SWR (1,33) at 18020. could shift it a litlle to make lowest swr at 18080.for the moment fIne with me.  Note picture 17M scan second The first shows a different result.  MIni60S reliable???
20M: Min SWR (1,39) at 14010. Fine with me
30 M: SWR of 2,6 around 10.100..  Strange graph with second dip.  For now workable. But what does it tell?
40 M:  Two scans that both are strange. One with no dip at all (second 40M) and the first with two real sharp dips at 6650 and 6750.   This important band is unworkable.  This is my main concern as i want to be able to work properly on 40 M
80 M:  Min Swr (1,33) at 3560. Should be shifted a little bit to the left (center frequency of 3520).   Adjusting the 80M coil should achieve this. 


I am very interested to better understand the complete lack of a reliable SWR graph on 40M.  Looks as if something is not compeltly right there that is beyond tuning.


Next is the 12 M.

Note: I have not yet adjuested the base coil Q for an even lower SWR on 80M. 

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Norman NZ5L <kopernic30@...>
 

Fred

If the ditch on your lot is not salt water, I see no advantage of mounting the antenna there as opposed to the highest point on your lot. 
I think you would have better results, and perhaps easier tuning, from the highest point in the clear with an extensive radial field.  (16=good, 32=better, 64=best.  More just invokes the law of diminishing returns)


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Fred PA3FK <killerbee1958@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 8:54 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning
 

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Experts,

Let me introduce myself a little bit first.

My name is Fred Koch, 61 years young, and radio-amateur since the 1980's.  Started my career as a Radio-Electronic Officer in the merchant marine so i should be aware of the theory of antenna's and tuning, however this was 40 years ago and i have not been very active in the hobby so my knowledge has faded a lot i notice. 

But recently picked up the hobby again and in the weekend of November 9/10 2019 i have installed a HF9V into the ditch behind my house and tried to tune it.
The antenna is installed into the ditch, and the ditch holds about 1 M water depth.  I first drove a 3,5 M pole into the earth and then mounted the base of the HF9V (Pole A) so it is about 40 cm above the water level. (see pictures in the album).
Note that the ditch is not a salt water ditch, however from reading on the internet, i have found several posting showing good results putting the HF9V up this way without using radials.
As a ex R/O i will be using CW only (with perhaps an incidental exception for SSB) so i am aiming to have the best SWR around the lower portion of the bands.

Assembly of the HF9V was feasible, however i do recognize that the instructions could be improved here and there but i think i got it right in the end.

And then the tuning begins.
I have a Mini60S as antenna analyzer and there are some strange results i would like your thoughts about. (see picture in my album where i uploaded the outcome of the scans i did)

To start from lowest to highest band 
6 M:  Min SWR (1,49) at 48900..  This weekend the dip was properly at 50.000 so it seems i need to tune the 6M wire a little again but overall this seems like an acceptable SWR graph
10M: Min  SWR (1,41) at 27850 and overall very flat.  Perfect (see Improved 10M scan)
12 M: Min SWR (2,64) at 26500. Way off. This is with 12M coil fully compressed (see pictures) as per initial tuning instructions. However when extending the 12 M coil nothing changes.
15M: Min SWR (1,45) at 20975 with enough bandwith so the 28.000 -28.100 is workable.  Fine with me
17M:: MIn SWR (1,33) at 18020. could shift it a little to make lowest swr at 18080.for the moment fIne with me.  Note picture 17M scan second The first shows a different result.  MIni60S reliable???
20M: Min SWR (1,39) at 14010. Fine with me
30 M: SWR of 2,6 around 10.100..  Strange graph with second dip.  For now workable. But what does it tell?
40 M:  Two scans that both are strange. One with no dip at all (second 40M) and the first with two real sharp dips at 6650 and 6750.   This important band is unworkable.  This is my main concern as i want to be able to work properly on 40 M
80 M:  Min Swr (1,33) at 3560. Should be shifted a little bit to the left (center frequency of 3520).   Adjusting the 80M coil should achieve this. 


I am very interested to better understand the complete lack of a reliable SWR graph on 40M.  Looks as if something is not completly right there that is beyond tuning.



Next is the 12 M.

Note: I have not yet adjusted the base coil Q for an even lower SWR on 80M. 

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.


Re: HF9V installation and tuning

Scott AC8DE
 

Fred,

 

Welcome to the fold.  Yours is a quite unusual installation; a type that I have no personal experience with tuning myself.  However, there have been a few through here over the years that did do over freshwater installations that had good results, which we talked though.  That said, I have definitely noted some significant issues that are correctable.  The thoughts are in no specific order, as I've written them down as I've looked at your photos.  Note, it would be a lot easier to dissect if you would use the excel sheet found here.  Looking at the charts doesn't give exact info.  It's close, but an excel sheet is better.

https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Tuning%20Charts/AC8DE%20Antenna%20Tuning%20Chart%20Excel%2097-2003%20format.xls

 

First, I renamed your album to start with your call sign.  It's hard to find anything over time in a folder that doesn't start with the owner's call sign.

 

SWR is NOT in indicator of antenna efficiency, so let's get that out of the way first.  SWR is only a portion of the picture.  A dummy load has perfect SWR after all.

 

  • Feed point height:  The height of the feed point above the ground plane should be a maximum of 6", with 3" being optimum.  You have your feed point at 15.75" above the water level/ground plane.  This is generally problematic for antenna tuning, but really problematic for efficiency.  Think of the results if you separate the two halves of a dipole by more than a couple inches.  Same thing with a vertical and its ground plane, as the ground plane is the "other half" of the antenna.  However, even with this high feed point, it may still be quite workable in an above water install, just understand the effect on bandwidth and efficiency.
  • Coil positions - This appears to be your biggest problem. It appears you have your 80M and 40M coils switched.  The coil with more turns (about 16-17) of the two is the 80M coil, which belongs BELOW the insulator.  The 40M coil typically has about 10 turns.
  • 80M:  If I visually drop the lowest SWR to 1:1 (which happens with Q coil adjustment), it appears that you are getting about 50 KHz of bandwidth below 2:1 by my estimate.  It should only be about 20-25KHz.  This is usually indicative of poor ground plane coupling/effect for the ground and hence, low antenna efficiency.  The usual advice is to install more radials, but in your case, I have no suggestion.  Drop the feed point as much as possible.  These comments may change considerably when you get the coils swapped.
  • 40M:  The first thing that jumps out and bites me is that your 30M coil assembly is tapped in the completely wrong place on the 40M coil.  (Although this is the wrong coil to begin with as installed.)  Its proper starting point is the 3rd or 4th turn down from the TOP of the 40M coil; usually the 4th.  I'd bet my house that the wrong coil and tapping point combination is causing your 40M problem and an improper tune of 20M.  Probably does some weird stuff to 30M as well.  These comments may also change considerable when you get the coils swapped.
  • What am I seeing in this photo?  https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/183823/14?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0  Is this a guy point?  If so, what is the big metal bracket you are using?  Seems like some massive overkill that adds capacitance and stress.  All you heed is a hose clamp and some D-rings and the smallest rope you can get.  There is very little wind loading on a Butternut, so small guy lines and light brackets are all that is needed.  It doesn't need to be any more than this, which has withstood 70 MPH winds. https://groups.io/g/Butternut/photo/25953/18?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
  • Once you get the 80, 40 and 30M coils all sorted out, things will be quite a bit different.  If there are any questions on tuning procedure, look at the latest version of the instructions here. https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Manuals%20-%20New%20DX%20Engineering%20Versions/HF6V%20&%20HF9V/BUT-HF9V_Rev3.pdf
  • 10M: The tune for 10M should NOT be that flat.  You should just barely pick up all the band below 2:1 and usually the ends of the band are just slightly above 2:1. This is probably the effect of the higher feed point.  Not a deal breaker, but again, is a sign of poor ground plane coupling.
  • I am not seeing any sign of anti-oxidant compound on your tubing joints or other aluminum junctions at the coils.  This is going to be problematic in short order, especially over water.  DX can sell you what you need.
  • And finally, for the love of all that is holy, reform your 80M and 40M coils.  You are killing my OCD.  Doesn't affect function, but you're killing me.  LOL

 

I won't comment on the rest of the tuning until you get those coil position issues addressed, which is key.

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Fred PA3FK
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 8:54 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: [butternut] HF9V installation and tuning

 

Hi Experts,

Let me introduce myself a little bit first.

My name is Fred Koch, 61 years young, and radio-amateur since the 1980's.  Started my carreer as a Radio-Electronic Officer in the merchant marine so i should be aware of the theory of antenna's and tuning, however this was 40 years ago and i have not been very active in the hobby so my knowledge has faded a lot i notice. 

But recently picked up the hobby again and in the weekend of November 9/10 2019 i have installed a HF9V into the ditch behind my house and tried to tune it.
The antenna is installed into the ditch, and the ditch holds about 1 M water depth.  I first drove a 3,5 M pole into the earth and then mounted the base of the HF9V (Pole A) so it is about 40 cm above the water level. (see pictures in the album).
Note that the ditch is not a salt water ditch, however from reading on the internet, i have found several posting showing good results putting the HF9V up this way without using radials.
As a ex R/O i will be using CW only (with perhaps an incidental exception for SSB) so i am aiming to have the best SWR around the lower portion of the bands.

Assembly of the HF9V was feasible, however i do recognize that the instructions could be improved here and there but i think i got it right in the end.

And then the tuning begins.
I have a Mini60S as antenna analyzer and there are some strange results i would like your thoughts about. (see picture in my album where i uploaded the outcome of the scans i did)

To start from lowest to highest band 
6 M:  Min SWR (1,49) at 48900..  This weekend the dip was properly at 50.000 so it seems i need to tune the 6M wire a little again but overall this seems like an acceptable SWR graph
10M: Min  SWR (1,41) at 27850 and overall very flat.  Perfect (see Improved 10M scan)
12 M: Min SWR (2,64) at 26500. Way off. This is with 12M coil fully compressed (see pictures) as per initial tuning instructions. However when extending the 12 M coil nothing changes.
15M: Min SWR (1,45) at 20975 with enough bandwith so the 28.000 -28.100 is workable.  Fine with me
17M:: MIn SWR (1,33) at 18020. could shift it a litlle to make lowest swr at 18080.for the moment fIne with me.  Note picture 17M scan second The first shows a different result.  MIni60S reliable???
20M: Min SWR (1,39) at 14010. Fine with me
30 M: SWR of 2,6 around 10.100..  Strange graph with second dip.  For now workable. But what does it tell?
40 M:  Two scans that both are strange. One with no dip at all (second 40M) and the first with two real sharp dips at 6650 and 6750.   This important band is unworkable.  This is my main concern as i want to be able to work properly on 40 M
80 M:  Min Swr (1,33) at 3560. Should be shifted a little bit to the left (center frequency of 3520).   Adjusting the 80M coil should achieve this. 


I am very interested to better understand the complete lack of a reliable SWR graph on 40M.  Looks as if something is not compeltly right there that is beyond tuning.


Next is the 12 M.

Note: I have not yet adjuested the base coil Q for an even lower SWR on 80M. 

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Norman NZ5L <kopernic30@...>
 

Congrats at getting your older HF6 going.  I did the same this past summer, a fun and worthwhile project.

Re 6M tuning  - My antenna resonates at 50.5 right where it is.  I assumed they all did.  Don't they?

On your radial lengths:  Wires in the ground are de-tuned anyway, so why didn't you just use 16 30 footers?  I know you don't really need "quarter wavlengths" but more wire in the ground = a better return path for RF currents.
Also, the SWR at resonance on 80 can be as low as 1.2, and the same on 40 and 20.  My upper bands are all about 1.5, including 12M  Maybe playing with the could adjustments will get it dialed in tighter for you.  GL.

Norm/NZ5L


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Tim N8NEU <t.m.kelly@...>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 7:39 PM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: [butternut] HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band
 
I brought my HF6V out of moth balls in the last 3 weeks. I clean it well and reconstructed the antenna from instructions downloaded from the internet. I have laid out 16 radials ranging from 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 25, 30 feet. I believe there are 2 of each lengths. My SWRs on 80, 40, 30 and 20 meters are all under 1.8. The upper bands are all under 2.3 and managed with a MFJ 949E antenna tuner.

My question is, can the 15 meter band wire antenna be replaced with a different length of wire and be use for the 6 mete band. If so can someone provide the details?

Thank you and 73

N8NEU - Tim
FN00ah


HF9V installation and tuning

Fred PA3FK
 
Edited

Hi Experts,

Let me introduce myself a little bit first.

My name is Fred Koch, 61 years young, and radio-amateur since the 1980's.  Started my career as a Radio-Electronic Officer in the merchant marine so i should be aware of the theory of antenna's and tuning, however this was 40 years ago and i have not been very active in the hobby so my knowledge has faded a lot i notice. 

But recently picked up the hobby again and in the weekend of November 9/10 2019 i have installed a HF9V into the ditch behind my house and tried to tune it.
The antenna is installed into the ditch, and the ditch holds about 1 M water depth.  I first drove a 3,5 M pole into the earth and then mounted the base of the HF9V (Pole A) so it is about 40 cm above the water level. (see pictures in the album).
Note that the ditch is not a salt water ditch, however from reading on the internet, i have found several posting showing good results putting the HF9V up this way without using radials.
As a ex R/O i will be using CW only (with perhaps an incidental exception for SSB) so i am aiming to have the best SWR around the lower portion of the bands.

Assembly of the HF9V was feasible, however i do recognize that the instructions could be improved here and there but i think i got it right in the end.

And then the tuning begins.
I have a Mini60S as antenna analyzer and there are some strange results i would like your thoughts about. (see picture in my album where i uploaded the outcome of the scans i did)

To start from lowest to highest band 
6 M:  Min SWR (1,49) at 48900..  This weekend the dip was properly at 50.000 so it seems i need to tune the 6M wire a little again but overall this seems like an acceptable SWR graph
10M: Min  SWR (1,41) at 27850 and overall very flat.  Perfect (see Improved 10M scan)
12 M: Min SWR (2,64) at 26500. Way off. This is with 12M coil fully compressed (see pictures) as per initial tuning instructions. However when extending the 12 M coil nothing changes.
15M: Min SWR (1,45) at 20975 with enough bandwith so the 28.000 -28.100 is workable.  Fine with me
17M:: MIn SWR (1,33) at 18020. could shift it a little to make lowest swr at 18080.for the moment fIne with me.  Note picture 17M scan second The first shows a different result.  MIni60S reliable???
20M: Min SWR (1,39) at 14010. Fine with me
30 M: SWR of 2,6 around 10.100..  Strange graph with second dip.  For now workable. But what does it tell?
40 M:  Two scans that both are strange. One with no dip at all (second 40M) and the first with two real sharp dips at 6650 and 6750.   This important band is unworkable.  This is my main concern as i want to be able to work properly on 40 M
80 M:  Min Swr (1,33) at 3560. Should be shifted a little bit to the left (center frequency of 3520).   Adjusting the 80M coil should achieve this. 


I am very interested to better understand the complete lack of a reliable SWR graph on 40M.  Looks as if something is not completly right there that is beyond tuning.



Next is the 12 M.

Note: I have not yet adjusted the base coil Q for an even lower SWR on 80M. 

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Scott AC8DE
 

Tim,

 

So, you asked a "simple" question...

 

If your antenna is ground mounted, you DO NOT want your radials to be tuned lengths, which is impossible anyway.  You need as many as long as you can reasonably up to about 34 feet long.  Tuned length radials on the ground is a misconception.  The goal of ground radials is to shield the vertical from the effect of the ground and to provide a current path.  They cannot be resonant when on the ground, as the ground detunes them.  (Elevated radials are a completely different equation.)  You've given us your lowest SWR, but not your bandwidth below 2:1, as bandwidth tells the tale on how well your antenna is working, not SWR.  The narrower, the better it is functioning.  You need more radials, unless this is an elevated installation.

 

You mentioned the upper bands are down to 2.3:1.  Specifically, I am interested in the 10M tune.  You should be able to get it down to at least 1.3:1.  How high is your feed point from the ground radials?  I needs to be below 6", with 3" being optimum.  If you are going to attempt 6M, you need to have 10M spot on.

 

Here are the original instructions to the 6M kit.  Do understand that the exact placement on the antenna and wire length is variable for the install.  Plus what is shown is with the 15M wire in place and since there is interaction with the 15M wire, I would expect there is going to be quite a bit of difference.  I've never had someone ask to remove the 15M wire in favor of the 6M wire before.  You are the first ever to my knowledge.

https://groups.io/g/Butternut/files/Butternut%20Manuals%20-%20Original%20Versions/Vertical%20Accessories/BUT-A-6.pdf

 

But I have to ask... why?  I am curious.  There are certainly a lot more contacts to be made on 15M than 6M.  Not to mention 6M is generally dealt with using horizontally polarized antennas and that band isn't open very much.

 

73,

Scott AC8DE

 

From: Butternut@groups.io On Behalf Of Tim N8NEU
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 7:40 PM
To: Butternut@groups.io
Subject: [butternut] HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

 

I brought my HF6V out of moth balls in the last 3 weeks. I clean it well and reconstructed the antenna from instructions downloaded from the internet. I have laid out 16 radials ranging from 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 25, 30 feet. I believe there are 2 of each lengths. My SWRs on 80, 40, 30 and 20 meters are all under 1.8. The upper bands are all under 2.3 and managed with a MFJ 949E antenna tuner.

My question is, can the 15 meter band wire antenna be replaced with a different length of wire and be use for the 6 mete band. If so can someone provide the details?

Thank you and 73

N8NEU - Tim
FN00ah


Re: Base Coil

Federico IK3UMT
 

If the relays control cable is an issue, a bias tee injecting 12VDC with both straight or reversed polarity (two relays controlled) into the coax is very easy to build with good results :-)

Federico
ik3umt


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

R G
 

They make a 6m kit for the HF6V.  It’s like $30. 
Read up on it an I bet it could be duplicated. 


On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:39 PM, Tim N8NEU <t.m.kelly@...> wrote:

I brought my HF6V out of moth balls in the last 3 weeks. I clean it well and reconstructed the antenna from instructions downloaded from the internet. I have laid out 16 radials ranging from 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 25, 30 feet. I believe there are 2 of each lengths. My SWRs on 80, 40, 30 and 20 meters are all under 1.8. The upper bands are all under 2.3 and managed with a MFJ 949E antenna tuner.

My question is, can the 15 meter band wire antenna be replaced with a different length of wire and be use for the 6 mete band. If so can someone provide the details?

Thank you and 73

N8NEU - Tim
FN00ah


Re: HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Peter VA3PET
 

I don't see why you could modify the 15m to 6m?
The 6m set up needs only three supports.
I originally set my 6m top clamp 23-1/4" from the top of tube G to the center of the 6m top clamp. I left the wire length at 58". The lower clamp is on tube F. This tuned a little low. So I lowered the top middle and lower 6m clamps a bit (sorry can't remember the exact amount), to raise 6m and then raised the bottom 6m clamp to fine tune 6m. I just folded excess wire back on itself.

Give it a shot.


Pete 73 de va3pet


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Tim N8NEU <t.m.kelly@...>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 7:39:41 PM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: [butternut] HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band
 
I brought my HF6V out of moth balls in the last 3 weeks. I clean it well and reconstructed the antenna from instructions downloaded from the internet. I have laid out 16 radials ranging from 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 25, 30 feet. I believe there are 2 of each lengths. My SWRs on 80, 40, 30 and 20 meters are all under 1.8. The upper bands are all under 2.3 and managed with a MFJ 949E antenna tuner.

My question is, can the 15 meter band wire antenna be replaced with a different length of wire and be use for the 6 mete band. If so can someone provide the details?

Thank you and 73

N8NEU - Tim
FN00ah


HF6V Modification To Incorporate 6 Meter Band

Tim N8NEU
 

I brought my HF6V out of moth balls in the last 3 weeks. I clean it well and reconstructed the antenna from instructions downloaded from the internet. I have laid out 16 radials ranging from 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 25, 30 feet. I believe there are 2 of each lengths. My SWRs on 80, 40, 30 and 20 meters are all under 1.8. The upper bands are all under 2.3 and managed with a MFJ 949E antenna tuner.

My question is, can the 15 meter band wire antenna be replaced with a different length of wire and be use for the 6 mete band. If so can someone provide the details?

Thank you and 73

N8NEU - Tim
FN00ah


Re: Base Coil

Norman NZ5L <kopernic30@...>
 

Unless I were to use RF powered relays, the relay idea is a bit impracticable for my set up


The longwire antenna is good for casual use on 80, for a contest (or expedition) its got to be the HF6, and I go out and set it where needed

thanks for the reply


From: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io> on behalf of Federico - ik3umt <ik3umt@...>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 2:43 AM
To: Butternut@groups.io <Butternut@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [butternut] Base Coil
 
Norman, it isn't so difficult to add a pair of relays so shunt few turns (or portion of turn) to move resonance along the whole 80mt band.
With 53 feet wire the whole system would be broader, and you need a tuner anyway....
Then, as you've said, the efficiency is low compared with a very short radiator like HFxV is.

It's not a shame, it's simply the physics of electrically short antennas you can't get rid of.

There is an old rule :

Short antenna
Wide bandwidth
Efficiency

You can't get these three at same time , each one is kicked out by other two ;-((

Federico
ik3umt