Topics

uBITX CW offset woes

Bill Meara
 

I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. 
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 

Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

Gordon Gibby
 

So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the other station, do you?
No.   
You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can hear a nice tone from the other station or 
(b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.

Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.

Precisely what you observed.   
Maybe that makes more sense?
My heathkit works the same way. 

Gordon


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. 
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 

Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

Bill Meara
 

Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out: 

I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3 Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me. Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on 14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending on the dial frequency.

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:


So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the other station, do you?
No.   
You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can hear a nice tone from the other station or 
(b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.

Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.

Precisely what you observed.   
Maybe that makes more sense?
My heathkit works the same way. 

Gordon


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. 
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 

Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

Gordon Gibby
 

well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100 kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.    So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used for many many years....and still have



On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out: 

I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3 Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me. Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on 14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending on the dial frequency.

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:


So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the other station, do you?
No.   
You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can hear a nice tone from the other station or 
(b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.

Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.

Precisely what you observed.   
Maybe that makes more sense?
My heathkit works the same way. 

Gordon


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. 
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 

Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

Gordon Gibby
 

When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100 kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.    So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used for many many years....and still have



On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out: 

I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3 Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me. Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on 14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending on the dial frequency.

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:


So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the other station, do you?
No.   
You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can hear a nice tone from the other station or 
(b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.

Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.

Precisely what you observed.   
Maybe that makes more sense?
My heathkit works the same way. 

Gordon


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. 
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 

Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

Curt
 

Bill

you have been promoting this rig for years, and now you label this as weird?  okay let me remind you what's happening. 

remember this is a dual-mode rig.  as it tunes, it displays the SSB carrier (okay where it would be).  when we key down for CW, it appropriately sets the transmit to where we are listening.  now the rig does not know whether we will speak into the microphone or do CW.  some have set their display for CW, but then the SSB would be off.  I have learned the simple math to correct for my CW positioning when I look for an op who is spotted (such as on the nice skcc list). 

enjoy your radiations!  nice to have you in the CW spectrum. 

Curt wb8yyy

Bill Cromwell
 

Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes=gmail.com@groups.io <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100
kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be
transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows. So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used
for many many years....and still have
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
<n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit
frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the
receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit
frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:
I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3
Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit
frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although
this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station
is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the
uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone
and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be
transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.
Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set
the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his
frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit
frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If
I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on
14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band
limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even
Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the
amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on
if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending
on the dial frequency.
On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby
<docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the
other station, do you?
No.
You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other
station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your
transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can
hear a nice tone from the other station or
(b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but
you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.
Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your
dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.
Precisely what you observed.
Maybe that makes more sense?
My heathkit works the same way.
Gordon
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
<n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071
to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that
Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display
show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to
produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under
ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually
transmitting on 7.0399.
Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major
software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2
display.
Thanks,  Bill N2CQR
--
bark less - wag more

Gordon Gibby
 

I’ll have to look back at the code to see how the MicroBitx  works,   But after dealing with this at last field day, I wrote a document on how my ICOM works.

It may not be quite what you thought!


(and I’m pretty sure that’s how my Heathkit SB 102 always worked ) On the ICOM also, when you transmit, you weren’t transmitting zero- beated with your dial frequency.   As I explained earlier, you would not want to be.   It’s all a matter of understanding how your rig works 

I’ll go back and look at the code on the uBitx and see how it works.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:43, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
   well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100
   kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be
   transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.       So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used
   for many many years....and still have
   On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
   <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
       Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit
       frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the
       receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit
       frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:
       I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3
       Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit
       frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although
       this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station
       is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the
       uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone
       and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be
       transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.
       Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set
       the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his
       frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit
       frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If
       I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on
       14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band
       limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even
       Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the
       amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on
       if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending
       on the dial frequency.
       On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby
       <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
       So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the
       other station, do you?
       No.
       You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other
       station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your
       transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can
       hear a nice tone from the other station or
       (b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but
       you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.
       Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your
       dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.
       Precisely what you observed.
       Maybe that makes more sense?
       My heathkit works the same way.
       Gordon
       On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
       <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
           I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071
           to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that
           Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display
           show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to
           produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under
           ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually
           transmitting on 7.0399.
           Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major
           software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2
           display.
           Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

--
bark less - wag more



Gordon Gibby
 

Aargh.  I may be wrong here!   If I am, my apologies, it makes my head spin a bit.   I’ll have to go fiddle with the radio and try it out.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:54, Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:

I’ll have to look back at the code to see how the MicroBitx  works,   But after dealing with this at last field day, I wrote a document on how my ICOM works.

It may not be quite what you thought!


(and I’m pretty sure that’s how my Heathkit SB 102 always worked ) On the ICOM also, when you transmit, you weren’t transmitting zero- beated with your dial frequency.   As I explained earlier, you would not want to be.   It’s all a matter of understanding how your rig works 

I’ll go back and look at the code on the uBitx and see how it works.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:43, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
   well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100
   kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be
   transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.       So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used
   for many many years....and still have
   On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
   <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
       Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit
       frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the
       receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit
       frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:
       I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3
       Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit
       frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although
       this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station
       is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the
       uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone
       and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be
       transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.
       Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set
       the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his
       frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit
       frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If
       I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on
       14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band
       limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even
       Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the
       amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on
       if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending
       on the dial frequency.
       On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby
       <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
       So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the
       other station, do you?
       No.
       You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other
       station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your
       transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can
       hear a nice tone from the other station or
       (b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but
       you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.
       Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your
       dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.
       Precisely what you observed.
       Maybe that makes more sense?
       My heathkit works the same way.
       Gordon
       On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
       <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
           I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071
           to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that
           Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display
           show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to
           produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under
           ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually
           transmitting on 7.0399.
           Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major
           software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2
           display.
           Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

--
bark less - wag more



Bill Meara
 

Interesting topic. I guess I'm just more accustomed to having the rig display the TX freq and shift the RX to make it audible.   But in uBITX CWU and CWL the display is the RX freq with the TX freq shifted.  So tonight I'm in CWL and I hear SKCC stations at 7.0557.  They are really at their normal spot at 7.0550.    I call them.  They hear me because my transmit freq has gone down to theirs.  So it all works but it is just a bit different. Actually I'm a lot more accustomed to setting up SSB rigs -- on all my rigs the display freq is where the carried would have been -- LSB extends down from there, USB up from there.  Easier.   Setting up CW offset with a Direct Conversion receiver is also a bit of a challenge:  If you are tuning to the high side of zero beat you need your TX frequency to drop down by 700 Hz or so.  This is how it works in a Heath HW-8. 

I understand it is possible to change the display in the uBITX so that it shows transmit frequency.  But this may involve some painful (for me) wrestling with the Arduino IDE, Memory Manager and the new CEC software.  So I may leave well-enough alone.  Unless someone can tell me how to do this EASILY. 

Here is a good discussion of the problem we've been talking about: 


And here is an ARRL forum discussion that talks about how different manufacturers handle this.   


On Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:55:04 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:


I’ll have to look back at the code to see how the MicroBitx  works,   But after dealing with this at last field day, I wrote a document on how my ICOM works.

It may not be quite what you thought!


(and I’m pretty sure that’s how my Heathkit SB 102 always worked ) On the ICOM also, when you transmit, you weren’t transmitting zero- beated with your dial frequency.   As I explained earlier, you would not want to be.   It’s all a matter of understanding how your rig works 

I’ll go back and look at the code on the uBitx and see how it works.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:43, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
   well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100
   kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be
   transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.       So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used
   for many many years....and still have
   On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
   <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
       Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit
       frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the
       receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit
       frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:
       I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3
       Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit
       frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although
       this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station
       is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the
       uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone
       and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be
       transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.
       Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set
       the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his
       frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit
       frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If
       I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on
       14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band
       limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even
       Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the
       amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on
       if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending
       on the dial frequency.
       On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby
       <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
       So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the
       other station, do you?
       No.
       You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other
       station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your
       transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can
       hear a nice tone from the other station or
       (b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but
       you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.
       Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your
       dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.
       Precisely what you observed.
       Maybe that makes more sense?
       My heathkit works the same way.
       Gordon
       On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
       <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
           I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071
           to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that
           Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display
           show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to
           produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under
           ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually
           transmitting on 7.0399.
           Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major
           software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2
           display.
           Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

--
bark less - wag more



Gordon Gibby
 

Thanks!   


On Dec 13, 2019, at 20:40, Bill Meara via Groups.Io <n2cqr@...> wrote:

Interesting topic. I guess I'm just more accustomed to having the rig display the TX freq and shift the RX to make it audible.   But in uBITX CWU and CWL the display is the RX freq with the TX freq shifted.  So tonight I'm in CWL and I hear SKCC stations at 7.0557.  They are really at their normal spot at 7.0550.    I call them.  They hear me because my transmit freq has gone down to theirs.  So it all works but it is just a bit different. Actually I'm a lot more accustomed to setting up SSB rigs -- on all my rigs the display freq is where the carried would have been -- LSB extends down from there, USB up from there.  Easier.   Setting up CW offset with a Direct Conversion receiver is also a bit of a challenge:  If you are tuning to the high side of zero beat you need your TX frequency to drop down by 700 Hz or so.  This is how it works in a Heath HW-8. 

I understand it is possible to change the display in the uBITX so that it shows transmit frequency.  But this may involve some painful (for me) wrestling with the Arduino IDE, Memory Manager and the new CEC software.  So I may leave well-enough alone.  Unless someone can tell me how to do this EASILY. 

Here is a good discussion of the problem we've been talking about: 


And here is an ARRL forum discussion that talks about how different manufacturers handle this.   


On Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:55:04 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:


I’ll have to look back at the code to see how the MicroBitx  works,   But after dealing with this at last field day, I wrote a document on how my ICOM works.

It may not be quite what you thought!


(and I’m pretty sure that’s how my Heathkit SB 102 always worked ) On the ICOM also, when you transmit, you weren’t transmitting zero- beated with your dial frequency.   As I explained earlier, you would not want to be.   It’s all a matter of understanding how your rig works 

I’ll go back and look at the code on the uBitx and see how it works.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:43, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:
   well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100
   kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be
   transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.       So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used
   for many many years....and still have
   On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
   <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
       Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit
       frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the
       receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit
       frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:
       I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3
       Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit
       frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although
       this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station
       is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the
       uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone
       and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be
       transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.
       Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set
       the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his
       frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit
       frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If
       I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on
       14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band
       limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even
       Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the
       amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on
       if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending
       on the dial frequency.
       On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby
       <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
       So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the
       other station, do you?
       No.
       You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other
       station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your
       transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can
       hear a nice tone from the other station or
       (b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but
       you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.
       Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your
       dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.
       Precisely what you observed.
       Maybe that makes more sense?
       My heathkit works the same way.
       Gordon
       On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io
       <n2cqr@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
           I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071
           to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that
           Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display
           show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to
           produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under
           ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually
           transmitting on 7.0399.
           Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major
           software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2
           display.
           Thanks,  Bill N2CQR

--
bark less - wag more



W2CTX
 

This topic has been discussed xxxx times on this reflector:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrC7JmNw1eY

On December 13, 2019 at 8:40 PM "Bill Meara via Groups.Io" <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


Interesting topic. I guess I'm just more accustomed to having the rig display the TX freq and shift the RX to make it audible.   But in uBITX CWU and CWL the display is the RX freq with the TX freq shifted.  So tonight I'm in CWL and I hear SKCC stations at 7.0557.  They are really at their normal spot at 7.0550.    I call them.  They hear me because my transmit freq has gone down to theirs.  So it all works but it is just a bit different. Actually I'm a lot more accustomed to setting up SSB rigs -- on all my rigs the display freq is where the carried would have been -- LSB extends down from there, USB up from there.  Easier.   Setting up CW offset with a Direct Conversion receiver is also a bit of a challenge:  If you are tuning to the high side of zero beat you need your TX frequency to drop down by 700 Hz or so.  This is how it works in a Heath HW-8. 
I understand it is possible to change the display in the uBITX so that it shows transmit frequency.  But this may involve some painful (for me) wrestling with the Arduino IDE, Memory Manager and the new CEC software.  So I may leave well-enough alone.  Unless someone can tell me how to do this EASILY. 
Here is a good discussion of the problem we've been talking about: 
https://groups.io/g/BITX20/topic/22981497
And here is an ARRL forum discussion that talks about how different manufacturers handle this.   
Forum » CW operating and technical techniques » CWL and CWU

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Forum » CW operating and technical techniques » CWL and CWU

The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) is the national association for amateur radio, connecting hams around the...
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73  Bill N2CQR






On Friday, December 13, 2019, 07:55:04 PM EST, Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:

I’ll have to look back at the code to see how the MicroBitx  works,   But after dealing with this at last field day, I wrote a document on how my ICOM works.
It may not be quite what you thought!
https://qsl.net/nf4rc/2019/ReceivingCW.pdf
(and I’m pretty sure that’s how my Heathkit SB 102 always worked ) On the ICOM also, when you transmit, you weren’t transmitting zero- beated with your dial frequency.   As I explained earlier, you would not want to be.   It’s all a matter of understanding how your rig works 
I’ll go back and look at the code on the uBitx and see how it works.  


On Dec 13, 2019, at 19:43, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:


Hi,

I have always preferred my dial to show my my TX carrier frequency whether or not it is suppressed. There are fiducial marks to show where to set for receive (USB or LSB). WWV is double sideband, full carrier AM (not SSB or CW) and yes it will be zero beated when you are zeroed with it's carrier. SSB and CW require a tiny amount more effort. If you operate near the (sub)band edge pay closer attention.

Transceivers are more often setup for the dial to to show the center of the SSB passband and often considered to 1500 Hz from the (suppressed) carrier.

In the end, you have to know how the radio you are using is configured. Either way (tx or rx reading) will work but if you are not aware which way your radio works you could transmit outside your license assignment. Your entire emitted signal is supposed to remain inside those prescribed band edges.

Merry Christmas and..

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/13/19 5:34 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:

When I get a chance, I'll check one of my icom's and see what I do, but I suspect many rigs work exactly this way, so that it becomes easy to be right on frequency of the other station, and also hear WWV zero beat precisely at 10.000000 MHz.   If they worked some other way, WWV would not zero beat at 10.000000, or alternatively you would not be transmitting on the same frequency as the CW station you had put in the ccenter of your audio filter passband.


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:24 PM Gordon Gibby via Groups.Io <docvacuumtubes=gmail.com@groups.io <mailto:gmail.com@groups.io>> wrote:


   well, you might be right, but when you zero beat a heathkit to a 100


   kHz marker, and subsequently tune in a CW signal, you will be


   transmitting on a DIFFERENT frequency from what your dial shows.       So I don't think you are correct for a heathkit SB-102, which I used


   for many many years....and still have


   On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io


   <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:


       Usually the freq readout on the display IS the transmit


       frequency, with the offset taking place in the receiver -- the


       receiver shifts the 700 Hz or so.   But here the transmit


       frequency shifts.  That is kind of weird.   As Vic points out:


       I just finished my V4 uBitX with CEC 1.10 firmware and the V3


       Nextion GUI. I think the method of offsetting the transmit


       frequency is backwards to how CW offset should be done. Although


       this works, it can have bad consequences. If the other station


       is transmitting on 14.100 I will not hear him unless I tune the


       uBitX to 14.099300 if I am particular about hearing a 700Hz tone


       and I am using CWU, so that means I actually will be


       transmitting on 14.100 when I send back and he will hear me.


       Similarly, if I have selected CWL I won’t hear him until I set


       the receiver to 14.100700 and I will be transmitting back on his


       frequency. However, we should be indicating the actual transmit


       frequency, not where I have offset to hear the other station. If


       I was close to the lower band edge, and I wanted to call CQ on


       14.000500, I would actually be transmitting 200Hz below the band


       limit if I have selected CWL mode. Other rigs I have used, even


       Allard’s sketch for the BitX40, offset the receiver by the


       amount of the desired tone (offset), either up or down based on


       if CWU or CWL is selected, so the transmitter always is sending


       on the dial frequency.


       On Friday, December 13, 2019, 04:38:21 PM EST, Gordon Gibby


       <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:


       So, when you do CW, you don't zero beat your RECEIVER to the


       other station, do you?


       No.


       You dial your receiver just the right amount off from the other


       station's zero beat so that either (a) you are set so that your


       transmitter will be on the other station's frequency and you can


       hear a nice tone from the other station or


       (b) if you have a very narrow filter, you do (a) as well, but


       you adjust so that the other station is PEAKED in your passband.


       Either way.....you are NOT transmitting precisely where your


       dial says....because typically you are offset by about 800 Hz.


       Precisely what you observed.


       Maybe that makes more sense?


       My heathkit works the same way.


       Gordon


       On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 3:57 PM Bill Meara via Groups.Io


       <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:


           I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071


           to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that


           Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display


           show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to


           produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under


           ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually


           transmitting on 7.0399.


           Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major


           software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2


           display.


           Thanks,  Bill N2CQR


--
bark less - wag more







W2CTX
 

I think there is an option in the CEC Memory Manager to
direct which should be displayed Rx or Tx.

On December 13, 2019 at 3:56 PM "Bill Meara via Groups.Io" <n2cqr=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


I'm trying to get my Version 3 uBITX with CEC version 1.071 to work properly in CW mode.  I have the same problem that Vic WA4THR had -- I really prefer just to have the display show the transmit frequency, with the receiver shifting to produce the desired CW tone.  That is not what happens under ver 1.071.   When the dial indicates 7.0407, I am actually transmitting on 7.0399. Is there anyway I can easily correct this without a major software overhaul?  I am still running uBITX v 3 with a 16x2 display. 
Thanks,  Bill N2CQR


Bill Cromwell
 

Hi Gordon,

Either way we setup the dial is right. Either way is wrong. If we use it the wrong way. As we have both said, we have to know how the radio in front of us works if we are going to have good results. That means we don't have any part of our emission outside the band AND our signal is where the other ham can hear it. For SSB we must present the right sideband, too.

Once upon a time I got a headache sorting it all out. At that time the headache medicines had a commercial showing Thor's hammer inside a human head striking an anvil complete with lightning strikes. If you remember those you will know it was at least a week ago:)

73,

Bill KU8H

On 12/13/19 8:35 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
Aargh.  I may be wrong here!   If I am, my apologies, it makes my head spin a bit.   I’ll have to go fiddle with the radio and try it out.
--
bark less - wag more

Gordon Gibby
 

You are very gracious.

I think the real issue is that my other rigs know if you are in CW mode or in single side band mode, and so they can’t offset the beat frequency oscillator appropriately

The MicroBid X with Stock software does not know; if you push the mic button you are single side band if you push the key you are CW., and until you do that it doesn’t know. By merely adding a way for it to know which technique (SSB vs cw) you prefer this could be solved.

On Dec 14, 2019, at 09:34, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:

Hi Gordon,

Either way we setup the dial is right. Either way is wrong. If we use it the wrong way. As we have both said, we have to know how the radio in front of us works if we are going to have good results. That means we don't have any part of our emission outside the band AND our signal is where the other ham can hear it. For SSB we must present the right sideband, too.

Once upon a time I got a headache sorting it all out. At that time the headache medicines had a commercial showing Thor's hammer inside a human head striking an anvil complete with lightning strikes. If you remember those you will know it was at least a week ago:)

73,

Bill KU8H


On 12/13/19 8:35 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
Aargh. I may be wrong here! If I am, my apologies, it makes my head spin a bit. I’ll have to go fiddle with the radio and try it out.
--
bark less - wag more