Topics

Tuner? Well Sure!

KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
 

Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit. 

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering. 

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn. 

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John
KN4GUY 

On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:10, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......


It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.   


I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about $270...........


As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....


For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)


For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.


Cheers.

gordon




From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!
 
I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for $3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE



From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN





On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about $30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!    
 
 
Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Like us on Facebook! <image001.gif>
 
 
email:  bill@...
 
From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
Good pickups!
 
So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:
 
1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap. 
 
2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for $100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire. 
 
3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.   
 
4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to $100
 
5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.
 
6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters
 
 
And there are probably many more....
 
Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.




Virus-free. www.avast.com

Richard Andrew Knack
 

I would also be VERY interested in a kit!

Rich

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 1:46 PM, KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
<KN4GUY@...> wrote:
Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit. 

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering. 

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn. 

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John
KN4GUY 

On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:10, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......


It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.   


I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about $270...........


As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....


For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)


For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.


Cheers.

gordon




From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!
 
I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for $3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE



From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN





On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about $30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!    
 
 
Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Like us on Facebook! <image001.gif>
 
 
email:  bill@...
 
From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
Good pickups!
 
So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:
 
1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap. 
 
2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for $100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire. 
 
3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.   
 
4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to $100
 
5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.
 
6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters
 
 
And there are probably many more....
 
Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.




Virus-free. www.avast.com

D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN
 

I'll volunteer to beta test too.  I'll have lots of youngsters testing it too.

I'm planning to make my uBITXs my boy scout activity radios.  I'd like the antenna flexibility of a tuner.  For now, I have an homebrew L-match for EFHW.  I'll add mag-loop sometime this winter.  My first "radio at camp" activity will be at the end of this month in south central Pennsylvania.

Daniel KB3MUN

On 12/31/2017 11:26, K9HZ wrote:
Well my company will manufacture the tuner, but i will need a bunch of beta testers to work any bugs out.

K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Im thinking just as a kit and then develop a list of guys that are willing to build them for others at a small fee.  That seems to work really well for other reflector projects. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com


email:  bill@...

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:32 AM, philip yates <phil@...> wrote:

Way above my head, but very interested in this project. 
Would be interested in something that could be supplied as a built PCB, and just needed the controls,
plugs and sockets etc. connecting up, and of course boxing.
Would look great added as part of the Bitx - uBitx line up.

Phil - G7BZD


On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 4:23 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:
That was the plan from the start.  Even with its own nano I need 18 latching digital lines so ill be doing some expanding/latching/mux-ing. 

What I'm struggling with at the moment is using latching relays (expensive) vs the added current from all of the relays if they are not latching.  Not good for battery ops. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com


email:  bill@...

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for $3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE



From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN





On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about $30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!    
 
 
Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Like us on Facebook! <image001.gif>
 
 
email:  bill@...
 
From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
Good pickups!
 
So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:
 
1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap. 
 
2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for $100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire. 
 
3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.   
 
4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to $100
 
5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.
 
6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters
 
 
And there are probably many more....
 
Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.




Virus-free. www.avast.com
<image001.gif>


K9HZ <bill@...>
 

The hardware is conceptually on but the implementation is a mess.  Not really the way i like to have my RF projects go. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com


email:  bill@...

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:27 AM, M Garza <mgarza896@...> wrote:

There are several tuner projects based on Arduino.  Here is one.
You can find schematics for almost all the major vendors out there.  The setup / hardware is basically all the same.

The hardware does not seem difficult.  The L match seems to be the most common.  I would use latching relays, so it could use very low power when not tuning, like the Elecraft T1 tuner.  The magic would be in the programming of the tuning subroutines.

Marco - KG5PRT 

On Dec 31, 2017 8:42 AM, "Rod Self" <km6sn@...> wrote:
Hi All,

some time ago I built a single-ended version of Farhan's tuner shown here:

http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-balanced-tuner.html

It is a basic L network with binary-weighted C and L values, switchable to either Hi or Low Z.

My operational impressions:

1. It is amazingly simple to tune up to an unknown load, and

2. even when the impedance mismatch is severe, switching in another tap of L or C shows easily-readable improvement in reflected voltage, which

3. gives a useful clue as to what to switch next, and

4. it is probably not necessary to use reflected voltage and phase readings- reflected voltage is probably sufficient, and

5. it would be simple to relay drive it and use a Nano to tune it.

So, I decided that when I got around-to-it, I would  automate it with a Nano. It just has not happened yet.

Just some operational feedback.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN



Rick S
 

Also interested in the ATU kit.   Please add me to the list.

Rick 
ND4F

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:
The hardware is conceptually on but the implementation is a mess.  Not really the way i like to have my RF projects go. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com


email:  bill@...

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:27 AM, M Garza <mgarza896@...> wrote:

There are several tuner projects based on Arduino.  Here is one.
You can find schematics for almost all the major vendors out there.  The setup / hardware is basically all the same.

The hardware does not seem difficult.  The L match seems to be the most common.  I would use latching relays, so it could use very low power when not tuning, like the Elecraft T1 tuner.  The magic would be in the programming of the tuning subroutines.

Marco - KG5PRT 

On Dec 31, 2017 8:42 AM, "Rod Self" <km6sn@...> wrote:
Hi All,

some time ago I built a single-ended version of Farhan's tuner shown here:

http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-balanced-tuner.html

It is a basic L network with binary-weighted C and L values, switchable to either Hi or Low Z.

My operational impressions:

1. It is amazingly simple to tune up to an unknown load, and

2. even when the impedance mismatch is severe, switching in another tap of L or C shows easily-readable improvement in reflected voltage, which

3. gives a useful clue as to what to switch next, and

4. it is probably not necessary to use reflected voltage and phase readings- reflected voltage is probably sufficient, and

5. it would be simple to relay drive it and use a Nano to tune it.

So, I decided that when I got around-to-it, I would  automate it with a Nano. It just has not happened yet.

Just some operational feedback.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN




K9HZ <bill@...>
 

I’ve never done winlink ALE so I don’t know the requirements… but if someone would care to enlighten me on what they would be and how it impacts the tuner I’d be happy to look into it…

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 12:46 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Dr Schmidt

 

I am very interested in the kit. 

 

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering. 

 

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn. 

 

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

 

John

KN4GUY 



Gordon Gibby
 

Hi,  


WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.


Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.


For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   


I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.


Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.


Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....


This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.


it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.


FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.


OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.


I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!


Gordon




From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of K9HZ <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:23 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!
 

I’ve never done winlink ALE so I don’t know the requirements… but if someone would care to enlighten me on what they would be and how it impacts the tuner I’d be happy to look into it…

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 12:46 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Dr Schmidt

 

I am very interested in the kit. 

 

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering. 

 

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn. 

 

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

 

John

KN4GUY 



Don Richards
 

I am very interested in a kit as well and possibly as a builder up here in ve3. Please add me to your list. 
Thanks and 73
Don ve3ids

Paul Schumacher
 

I am willing to beta test.

Paul K0ZYV



From: Steve Black via Groups.Io <kb1chu@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!


On 12/31/2017 11:26 AM, K9HZ wrote:
Well my company will manufacture the tuner, but i will need a bunch of beta testers to work any bugs out.  


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...
 

On Dec 31, 2017, at 8:10 AM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......

It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.   

I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about $270...........

As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....

For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)

For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.

Cheers.
gordon



From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!
 
I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for $3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE



From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN





On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about $30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!    
 
 
Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Like us on Facebook! facebook icon
 
 
email:  bill@...
 
From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
Good pickups!
 
So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:
 
1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap. 
 
2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for $100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire. 
 
3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.   
 
4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to $100
 
5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.
 
6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters
 
 
And there are probably many more....
 
Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX
 
An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.




Virus-free. www.avast.com



K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 

Diver Martin <diver.martin@...>
 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 




--
Martin Held - AE7EU
http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

bill richardson
 

I’m a hiker and like to operate in the field so I would want something that has the lowest current draw. I normally don’t need to tune more than a few times if doing a SOTA so not sure if it would be a big deal? On a long multi-day hike it would be a different story. Not sure if we can meet in the middle on cost vs current draw?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! <image001.gif>

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 

D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN
 

It is a kit, right?

Give me both choices.  That is, sell the kit with the constant current draw relays, but design the board alternately accommodate the latching relay footprint.  Then I as the kit builder can buy the latching relays and fit them if that is my need.  Just don't forget to tell me which relay model you designed the board for.

Daniel KB3MUN



On 12/31/2017 15:44, K9HZ wrote:

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).


  

M Garza <mgarza896@...>
 

Or provide the latching relays as an option.

Marco - KG5PRT 

On Dec 31, 2017 3:12 PM, "D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN" <kb3mun@...> wrote:
It is a kit, right?

Give me both choices.  That is, sell the kit with the constant current draw relays, but design the board alternately accommodate the latching relay footprint.  Then I as the kit builder can buy the latching relays and fit them if that is my need.  Just don't forget to tell me which relay model you designed the board for.

Daniel KB3MUN



On 12/31/2017 15:44, K9HZ wrote:

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).


  

Jerry Gaffke
 

ALE and Winlink are looking like prime candidates for that EFHW-8010 from myantennas.com.

There are cases where an automatic tuner is needed, operating mobile is a good example.
A G5RV antenna with open wire transmission line all the way into a tuner is a great multiband system,
but as Gordon points out it may be problematic if continuously jumping bands for receive.
An antenna farm with bunches of rotatable beams will definitely outperform an EFHW.
But if you are willing to take pot-luck on where the lobes of the radiation pattern fall on the upper bands,
a well designed EFHW is hard to beat.

Jerry, KE7ER


On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 11:34 am, Gordon Gibby wrote:

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....

 

I would love a kit and would be happy to test as well. I have some time on my hands for the next few years so building could be an option for me as well.

 

 GL with the project

73

  David

K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Well make a simple DC calculation for a 2 ohm antenna at 100 watts and see what you get…  I get 7 amps plus.  I build for worst case so it doesn’t break and come back.  The worst think that can happen is to under-design, sell a product, have people use it and be disappointed because it fails when they need it to work.  I’m really tired of products that are built that way… and there are a lot of them.  I spend most of my weekends fixing other people’s bad design with products around my house and had enough of it.  Pool stuff appears to be the weakest.  Cars are not far behind.  Seems like there is always a battery to replace every weekend too.  Sorry… \\endrant.

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Diver Martin
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:08 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

 

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

 

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 



 

--

Martin Held - AE7EU

http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Looking into that… same board but populated with a different relay.  I think it’s doable, but It could make the base case kit more expensive… because the cheap (but very adequate) non-latching relays I use don’t have latching counter parts.  I have a friend in the Electronic Parts Sales business at a major distributor… he may be able to find something that works for us.

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of M Garza
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:13 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Or provide the latching relays as an option.

 

Marco - KG5PRT 

 




 

Diver Martin <diver.martin@...>
 

Ah, you're designing for 100W and some pretty low impedances.  I'm not designing for that much power / mismatch I guess :)  10ohms, 50W, which is close enough for me and can still tune an SWR of 5:1, and my real goal is 3:1.  For a uBitx at 10W output drive, you could use significantly less current rating imho.

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 1:46 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Well make a simple DC calculation for a 2 ohm antenna at 100 watts and see what you get…  I get 7 amps plus.  I build for worst case so it doesn’t break and come back.  The worst think that can happen is to under-design, sell a product, have people use it and be disappointed because it fails when they need it to work.  I’m really tired of products that are built that way… and there are a lot of them.  I spend most of my weekends fixing other people’s bad design with products around my house and had enough of it.  Pool stuff appears to be the weakest.  Cars are not far behind.  Seems like there is always a battery to replace every weekend too.  Sorry… \\endrant.

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Diver Martin
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:08 PM


To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

 

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

 

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 



 

--

Martin Held - AE7EU

http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?




--
Martin Held - AE7EU
http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?