Topics

Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Jim:

 

What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.

 

I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  

 

One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.

 

Jim -- W0EB

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.



Comments:
I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)

Regards,
Gary
AG5TX

Jim Sheldon
 

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  

NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.

Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.

Jim, W0EB



------ Original Message ------
From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>
Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

Jim:

 

What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.

 

I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  

 

One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.

 

Jim -- W0EB

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.



Comments:
I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)

Regards,
Gary
AG5TX

Jerry Gaffke
 

I've never taken apart one of the relays that the uBitx comes with.
But might be possible to grind off the plastic cover with a dremel tool first,
then pluck the pins out one at a time with a needle nose pliers
while heating that pin with a soldering iron, as Jim suggests.

Another option is a hot air gun.  
I've got a 250 Watt heat gun built specifically for electronics,
but a $20 hot air embossing tool off amazon would work about as well.
Suspend the board in some sort of vice, cover the bottom of the board with tin foil
except for the area you want to heat, then play the gun under the relays while
gently tugging at each relay from the top.
Downside is that nearby parts may be damaged by the heat, or simply fall off the board
Upside is that the uBitx has no surface mount parts on the bottom,
so if you keep the board level the other parts should not be disturbed.
Though the plastic on the antenna connector might droop a bit.

Jerry, KE7ER


On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Jim Sheldon wrote:
my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,

iz oos
 

So a rework station like the one in the picture should be avoided for removing the relays, right?

Il 12/ott/2018 19:11, "Jim Sheldon" <w0eb@...> ha scritto:
>
> https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  
>
> NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.
>
> Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.
>
> Jim, W0EB
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>
> To: BITX20@groups.io
> Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>
>> Jim:
>>
>>  
>>
>> What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.
>>
>>  
>>
>> David A Posthuma, WD8PUO
>>
>> 1 (616) 283-7703
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
>> To: BITX20@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  
>>
>>  
>>
>> One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Jim -- W0EB
>>
>>  
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>>
>> From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>
>>
>> To: BITX20@groups.io
>>
>> Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>>
>>  


>
>
>>>
>>> Good Morning Jim,
>>> Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
>>> For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
>>> You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Comments:
>>> I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
>>> But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
>>> Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Gary
>>> AG5TX
>

Jim Sheldon
 

Solder braid or a precision vacuum desoldering tool should be used IMO.  If you have a Hakko or Pace desoldering station with heated tip vacuum tool this is best.  I have a powerful spring loaded suction desoldering tool that I use with my soldering iron to suck the melted solder from the heated terminal pads, one at a time.  Trying to heat all the pins at once spreads the heat out over the board and can overheat things.  These relays are through hole and not SMD devices so hot air is not the way to go when removing them.

Jim

On Oct 12, 2018, at 12:31 PM, iz oos <and2oosiz2@...> wrote:

So a rework station like the one in the picture should be avoided for removing the relays, right?
Il 12/ott/2018 19:11, "Jim Sheldon" <w0eb@...> ha scritto:
>
> https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  
>
> NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.
>
> Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.
>
> Jim, W0EB
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>
> To: BITX20@groups.io
> Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>
>> Jim:
>>
>>  
>>
>> What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.
>>
>>  
>>
>> David A Posthuma, WD8PUO
>>
>> 1 (616) 283-7703
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
>> To: BITX20@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  
>>
>>  
>>
>> One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Jim -- W0EB
>>
>>  
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>>
>> From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>
>>
>> To: BITX20@groups.io
>>
>> Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>>
>>  


>
>
>>>
>>> Good Morning Jim,
>>> Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
>>> For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
>>> You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Comments:
>>> I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
>>> But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
>>> Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Gary
>>> AG5TX
>

<IMG_20181012_192537-1.jpg>

 

Jim:

 

I have built everything in my shack including an Elecraft K2 (I was a beta tester for the 100-watt linear amp), auto-tuner, and other smaller projects. So, I am fairly comfortable, but putting them in is far easier than getting them out…a lesson learned from too much previous experience.

 

What is the consensus, solder the relays on top or on bottom of the board?

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 1:12 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  

 

NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.

 

Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.

 

Jim, W0EB

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Jim:

 

What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.

 

I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  

 

One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.

 

Jim -- W0EB

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.



Comments:
I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)

Regards,
Gary
AG5TX

Mike Woods
 

Jim

Would you be able to take a photo of a uBITx with the new Axicom relays in place?  It would be nice to be able to show this on ubitx.net.   I have ordered relays from Hong Kong, but they will take a while to arrive ...

Vy 73 Mike ZL1AXG

On 13/10/18 6:11 AM, Jim Sheldon wrote:
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  

NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.

Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.

Jim, W0EB



------ Original Message ------
From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>
Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

Jim:

 

What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.

 

I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  

 

One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.

 

Jim -- W0EB

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.



Comments:
I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)

Regards,
Gary
AG5TX


--
Mike Woods
mhwoods@...

 

So, is the relay mod a sure thing? I have put off ordering the relays until somebody says it definitely works. I jumped on the 45Mhz filter bandwagon and have them all installed and working on two different uBitx's and now there is a easier mod which is okay. I would just like somebody to say 'lets do this, it works'.

Joel
N6ALT

Jim Sheldon
 

Top IMO.  Bottom actually degraded things on MY board.  Probably need a few more people to test tis before a cull consensus can be reached.

Jim

On Oct 12, 2018, at 4:34 PM, David Posthuma <davep@...> wrote:

Jim:

 

I have built everything in my shack including an Elecraft K2 (I was a beta tester for the 100-watt linear amp), auto-tuner, and other smaller projects. So, I am fairly comfortable, but putting them in is far easier than getting them out…a lesson learned from too much previous experience.

 

What is the consensus, solder the relays on top or on bottom of the board?

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 1:12 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/v23105a5403a201/te-connectivity  will get you the relays at the cheapest price in the USA that I know of  They even have free overnight shipping.  

 

NO absolutely do NOT use a PC oven.  You must use a solder sucker or solder braid from the underside of the board and unsolder each pin very carefully. In this case, using an oven would apply too much heat in all the wrong places with potentially disastrous results.

 

Not knowing your electronics background/expertise, my suggestion to you if you aren't comfortable with de-soldering the relays one pin at a time,  you might try to find someone with de-soldering experience to help you so you don't accidentally destroy your uBITX PC board.

 

Jim, W0EB

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "David Posthuma" <davep@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 11:58:40 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Jim:

 

What are the actual part numbers of the Axion relays and where are you ordering them from? Did you need to use a PCB oven to remove the relays? What was your technique? I’m sorry if these topics were already addressed and I missed it.

 

David A Posthuma, WD8PUO

1 (616) 283-7703

 

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Sheldon
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

I have another V4 board that I'm going to build up, but I'm waiting on a special 3.2" Color TFT touch screen display (NOT a Nextion) for use with the Trimuvirate Skonk Worx "BITeensio" controller board.  We have 2.8 and 5" displays running nicely with released software and instructions for them.  The 5" draws too much current so the next is a compromise down to the 3.2" and that will probably be our last display iteration unless something really innovative comes out that's larger and keeps the current draw under 200 mA so we don't have to add heavy duty 3.3V regulators on the BITeensio.

 

I've already replaced the relays on the 3rd board with Axions (mounted on top) and I have one more set of the Axion relays on hand.  I may just make up a test bed using a V3 board I have left over and keep it open frame with DIP sockets for the relays to make it easier to change them if something better than the Axion comes along.  

 

One thing the Axions seemed to help with was reduce radiated pickup of digital noise from the controller card & wiring.  It may be because I replace all 5 relays, or may be because I got better solder joints (non lead-free solder) when I replaced the relays.

 

Jim -- W0EB

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gary Anderson" <gary.ag5tx@...>

Sent: 10/12/2018 9:45:08 AM

Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement

 

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for entertaining the idea.  Your shared data maybe useful as you have shown same board and relay with different measured results.
For that particular board and the measurement data you gathered, I would say the results ARE encouraging from this viewpoint:
You have 4.5 dBc more margin to FCC spec on your worst case data point (40m 3rd harmonic) with the supplied data set.

<image001.png>

Comments:
I have no measurement error / uncertainty reference or relevant personal judgement / experience to truly offer.
But, I would think it more difficult to accurately measure the case of more suppression, and so the uncertainty here would be higher.
Note that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are swapping (80m Top and 17m Bot)

Regards,
Gary
AG5TX

Kees T
 

I think it's great to discover, but I would still like to see WHY the Axicom relays fix the problem and some data plots with and without. There has to be a reason other than the coil being on top of the contacts.  

73 Kees K5BCQ

Jim Sheldon
 

Kees,
The Axicom relays were designed specifically for RF use and were made with RF isolation in mind where the original relays have almost no RF isolation between contacts, armature & coil because they were simply designed as power switching relays in and absolutely NO thought given to them being used in RF applications.  I believe I've stated this several times in my other posts.

W0EB

On Oct 12, 2018, at 7:25 PM, Kees T <windy10605@...> wrote:

I think it's great to discover, but I would still like to see WHY the Axicom relays fix the problem and some data plots with and without. There has to be a reason other than the coil being on top of the contacts.  

73 Kees K5BCQ

Kees T
 

Jim,

Yes, I've seen that posted by you before......but what did they do specifically for RF use ? some spacings ? shielding ? coil core material ? base dielectric ? housing dielectric ?

I also see Axicom has 4 coil power options (like most of the other relay vendors). Which one is correct and which one did you order ?

73 Kees K5BCQ

Jim Sheldon
 

I really suspect they were really careful with the dielectric properties of all the case and internal insulating material as well as coil wire routing as far away from the switching contacts as possible. 

In the original one I cut open, the coil contact wires were laid haphazardly alongside the movable switching contact.  I don't  want to tear up a good $2 relay just to find out whats inside.  My spectrum analyzer results are good enough proof that Potter & Brumfield (makers of the TE Axicom relays) know what they are doing.  P & B has been in the relay business for many years and I tend to trust their products over the cheaper stuff, especially in critical RF circuits.

I worked on some pretty exotic RF equipment for a good bit of my 20 years in the US Army and regardless of the equipment's manufacturer, most of the RF switching relays were made by P & B.   

Jim

On Oct 12, 2018, at 7:34 PM, Kees T <windy10605@...> wrote:

Jim,

Yes, I've seen that posted by you before......but what did they do specifically for RF use ? some spacings ? shielding ? coil core material ? 

73 Kees K5BCQ

Jim Sheldon
 

See the link I posted from the vender, download and study the data sheet yourself.

On Oct 12, 2018, at 7:47 PM, Kees T <windy10605@...> wrote:

Jim,

Yes, I've seen that posted by you before......but what did they do specifically for RF use ? some spacings ? shielding ? coil core material ? 

I also see Axicom has 4 coil power options (like most of the other relay vendors). Which one is correct and which one did you order ?

73 Kees K5BCQ

Mike Short <ai4ns.mike@...>
 

I use pliers and break the component to be removed. Once it is broken apart you can focus on removing one pin at a time. No overheating the board or pads. There is not much thermal mass to draw away heat that way.


--
Mike
AI4NS

Kees T
 

Jim,

I've looked over that spec sheet and the only thing that tells me is that they are "Signal Relays" have gold plated contacts (all good but not unique to Axicom) ...........and the ones you ordered are V23105A5403A201  
so the "403" means the option for a 400mW coil.  Now that is a difference because the "typical" relays have the 200mW coil option. More power means more current and probably fewer turns in the coil. Nothing tells me what they did to set themselves apart from the herd. The critical contact capacitance of 2pF and the 4pf to the coil is the same as the rest of the herd.

73 Kees K5BCQ

Jim Sheldon
 

Only way you'll get any more than what's in the data sheet is contact the manufacturer.  Anything else beyond what's in the spec sheet just guessing without answers from them and I don't have contact info for them so you're on your own.  I can't answer your questions other than further guessing and I don't intend to do that.  Again, you do the research.  I'm accepting the results I came up with on my board.  I don't have time for anything further. You want answers I don't have so call the mfr. if you can find contact info.



On Oct 12, 2018, at 9:35 PM, Kees T <windy10605@...> wrote:

Jim,

I've looked over that spec sheet and the only thing that tells me is that they are "Signal Relays" have gold plated contacts (all good) ...........and the ones you ordered are V23105A5403A201  
so the "403" means the option for a 400mW coil.  Nothing tells me what they did to set themselves apart from the herd. The critical contact capacitance of 2pF and the 4pf to the coil is the same as the rest of the herd.

73 Kees K5BCQ

Mike Doty
 

Kees,
Since I started this, let me jump in here for a minute.  My intention in starting this thread was simply to provide information on favorable results that I had.  I appreciate that Jim jumped in with both feet and tested what I presented and that you are delving even farther into the effort.  I would like to hear from others that try the Axicom relays and have the test equipment to do further evaluations.  That's what makes this group such a great place to share ideas and gather info.

There is a PDF document with data on all of the TE Axicom relays available at http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/105262.pdf.  It's rather lengthy and I've spent a lot of time going thru it trying to answer some of my own questions.  As I said in my original post, I used the V23105A5403A201 400mW relays because that was what I had.  Will one of the higher or lower coil value relays work better or worse - I can't say.  One thing I do notice is the major difference between the 4 coil sizes, other than coil resistance, appears to be in the minimum/maximum operating voltages.  All other specs, to include contact capacitance and isolation appears to be the same for all 4. It may be worthwhile for you to download the document and go thru it.  Tyco Electronics does have a website that will allow you to ask questions of their engineers on-line and, as Jim has suggested, if you really want to get in to the weeds that may be the route to take. Since we are talking about possibly affecting a few thousand radios they may be interested in providing additional information and I'm certain that everyone in the group would appreciate any further info that you can glean.

One thing I want to mention is that I saw over on the ubitx.net site that Mike has posted a picture of an Axicom relay with a part number of V23105A5476A201.  Looking in the PDF document and the D2n datasheets, this particular relay is listed separately from the ones we are discussing.  While it is a 12V relay I haven't been able to confirm that this relay is RF rated.  It's listed as BT47 type with a coil resistance of 280 ohms.  What makes this relay different from the 503 relay isn't clear, other than it is rated for more than 500mW, but there must be reason that it is listed in a separate category.  In case anyone is interested and wants to try this relay, Newark has them on sale right now for $0.99 each.  I purchased 20 this morning and when they arrive I will be cutting the case off of one, as well as dissecting one of the 400mW relays, to do a visual comparison.  I'll post pictures of my results.  I don't think I will be pulling the existing relays off of my rigs to actually test them though:-)

Take care and keep digging!
--73-- Mike  --  W0MNE

Mike Woods
 

Mike

I suspect that the bracketed phrase (current tested) in the datasheet may be to the relevant clue for this relay (5476). Presumably they are tested to meet the 3A switching capacity.

All of the D2n relays are  BT47 relays it seems, but this series 54xx are designed for British Telecom use (and presumably tested to BT requirements).  47 W / 6 is the BT classification for a 12v coil relay of BT47 specs.   Hence the 476 in the number.   I gleaned this from a read of the Farnell spec.   I suspect they might be slightly more expensive, but I haven't looked...  I suspect they are still compatible.

I didn't realise that photo had a different number on it until you pointed it out ... I checked only the opening and closing numbers!  I will remove the photo just in case.

Mike

On 13/10/18 5:41 PM, Mike Doty via Groups.Io wrote:

One thing I want to mention is that I saw over on the ubitx.net site that Mike has posted a picture of an Axicom relay with a part number of V23105A5476A201.  Looking in the PDF document and the D2n datasheets, this particular relay is listed separately from the ones we are discussing.  While it is a 12V relay I haven't been able to confirm that this relay is RF rated.  It's listed as BT47 type with a coil resistance of 280 ohms.  What makes this relay different from the 503 relay isn't clear, other than it is rated for more than 500mW, but there must be reason that it is listed in a separate category.  In case anyone is interested and wants to try this relay, Newark has them on sale right now for $0.99 each.  I purchased 20 this morning and when they arrive I will be cutting the case off of one, as well as dissecting one of the 400mW relays, to do a visual comparison.  I'll post pictures of my results.  I don't think I will be pulling the existing relays off of my rigs to actually test them though:-)
--
Mike Woods
mhwoods@...

Glenn
 

Interesting...... the price for V23105A5403A201 relays from Farnell in VK was AU$2.28 a few days ago. Its now $3.97

glenn vk3pe