BITX20@groups.io | Beta Readers, closed!

Jack, W8TEE

#79954

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,

Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

Jeff Debes

#79992

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.

People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .

Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?

I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.

Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.

But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes

AC2JB

Show quoted text

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

Bob Lunsford

#79994

Reminds me of the old question: "Oh, say can you C...?" (snicker)

Show quoted text

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:58 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.

People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .

Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?

I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.

Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.

But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes

AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

Mick

#79998

LoL, how about:

Anything you can C, I can C .......plus
--

73
Mick VA3EPM

Jack, W8TEE

#80003

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I

thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and

use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.

People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .

Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?

I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.

Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.

But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes

AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

Christopher Miller

#80004

I think Jeff makes a good point. I personally have a reading disability. Writing a book for everyone is impossible.

Chris

Jack, W8TEE

#80005

I don't think any author thinks he can reach every potential reader successfully. But to say you've never read a single book that helped you seems unlikely. Indeed, to me it says that they aren't doing any combing of the book reviews before they buy, or they have unrealistic goals about reading a book. Also, I know that students who read the book and do the exercises will learn more than those who don't. For those, like yourself, who have a reading disability, perhaps they would be better served with a video or some other medium. Jeff makes it seem like he keeps buying books even though his mind is made up that they don't work for him. That seems like the repeat-the-same-experiment-and-expect-different-results problem. Simple solution for Jeff: Quit buying books.

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 10:22:16 AM EDT, Christopher Miller <djmalak2k6@...> wrote:

I think Jeff makes a good point. I personally have a reading disability. Writing a book for everyone is impossible.

Chris

--
Jack, W8TEE

Jeff Debes

#80007

My point was that there are many ‘C’ books out there, and most have some aspects well covered while they also have differing ways of conveying some information. But a student would do well to access several to cover the range of topics in each author's focus and style. ( None are really comprehensive or single resource for the beginner.

So a book to try to bridge the gaps would be nice, but a big challenge (apparently) since no one seems to have written a book that is best for the majority of learners.

I was not a software engineer by profession or advance education training. I dabbled and wrote some ‘C’ code for business and work and for fun, but admittedly am not into relearning ‘C’ now unless necessity arrises.

It’s an admirable effort to collect feedback from implementer/readers for the purpose of making ‘C’ learning easier.

Show quoted text

On Jun 23, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

I don't think any author thinks he can reach every potential reader successfully. But to say you've never read a single book that helped you seems unlikely. Indeed, to me it says that they aren't doing any combing of the book reviews before they buy, or they have unrealistic goals about reading a book. Also, I know that students who read the book and do the exercises will learn more than those who don't. For those, like yourself, who have a reading disability, perhaps they would be better served with a video or some other medium. Jeff makes it seem like he keeps buying books even though his mind is made up that they don't work for him. That seems like the repeat-the-same-experiment-and-expect-different-results problem. Simple solution for Jeff: Quit buying books.

Jack, W8TEE

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 10:22:16 AM EDT, Christopher Miller <djmalak2k6@...> wrote:

I think Jeff makes a good point. I personally have a reading disability. Writing a book for everyone is impossible.

Chris

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

Arv Evans

#80009

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.

I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of

new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.

Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have

come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,

if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv

_._

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I
        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and
        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?
I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.
Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.
But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes
AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

Arv Evans

#80010

Correction...1978, not 1778. Even I am not that old, but we are not

sure about Jack! 8-)

_._

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:28 AM Arv Evans via groups.io <arvid.evans=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.
I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of
new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.
Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have
come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,
if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv
_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I
        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and
        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?
I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.
Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.
But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes
AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

Jack, W8TEE

#80011

I still have my original K&R, too...paid $8 for it! I never did meet Dennis--I don't think he got out much! I did meet Brian several times...very interesting speaker...

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 11:33:05 AM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:

Correction...1978, not 1778. Even I am not that old, but we are not

sure about Jack! 8-)

_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:28 AM Arv Evans via groups.io <arvid.evans=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.
I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of
new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.
Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have
come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,
if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv
_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I
        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and
        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?
I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.
Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.
But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes
AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

Christopher Miller

#80013

Jack,

I have to agree, I do gain knowledge eventually. I’m a gluten for punishment.

Chris

Tom Frobase

#80014

Jack,

had your book on my shelf next to "K&R" and "Learning to Program in C". We were using Astec "C"in those days with a $500 removable 10 Meg hard drive. My staff always told me my favorite programming language was solder! ha ha ... tom, N3LLL

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:39 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't think any author thinks he can reach every potential reader successfully. But to say you've never read a single book that helped you seems unlikely. Indeed, to me it says that they aren't doing any combing of the book reviews before they buy, or they have unrealistic goals about reading a book. Also, I know that students who read the book and do the exercises will learn more than those who don't. For those, like yourself, who have a reading disability, perhaps they would be better served with a video or some other medium. Jeff makes it seem like he keeps buying books even though his mind is made up that they don't work for him. That seems like the repeat-the-same-experiment-and-expect-different-results problem. Simple solution for Jeff: Quit buying books.

Jack, W8TEE

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 10:22:16 AM EDT, Christopher Miller <djmalak2k6@...> wrote:

I think Jeff makes a good point. I personally have a reading disability. Writing a book for everyone is impossible.

Chris

--
Jack, W8TEE

Jack, W8TEE

#80015

I remember Aztec C. Byte Magazine always used to benchmark C compilers and one of the tests was The Sieve of Eratosthenes. There were about a dozen C compilers in the tests, including mine, and while Aztec was so-so on most tests, it beat everyone on the Sieve test. It was later found out that they wrote a section in their compiler that could recognize the test code and, instead of compiling it, dumped out hand-tweaked assembler code for it. They pretty much died after that was discovered. I think they are also the only company that used -1 for NULL.

After that, there were a bunch of benchmark tests that use the Drystone and Whetstone benchmark tests. The problem with both of those tests is that they really didn't test the code generation of the compiler, but rather the implementation of the Standard C library function calls used in the tests. As a result, I wrote the Dhamstone (get it?) benchmark test ("Philosophy and Methodology of Benchmarks", Computer Language, Feb., 1986) as a better benchmark for testing code generation. Running that benchmark serious scrambled the test results!

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 1:04:33 PM EDT, Tom Frobase <tfrobase@...> wrote:

Jack,

had your book on my shelf next to "K&R" and "Learning to Program in C". We were using Astec "C"in those days with a $500 removable 10 Meg hard drive. My staff always told me my favorite programming language was solder! ha ha ... tom, N3LLL

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:39 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't think any author thinks he can reach every potential reader successfully. But to say you've never read a single book that helped you seems unlikely. Indeed, to me it says that they aren't doing any combing of the book reviews before they buy, or they have unrealistic goals about reading a book. Also, I know that students who read the book and do the exercises will learn more than those who don't. For those, like yourself, who have a reading disability, perhaps they would be better served with a video or some other medium. Jeff makes it seem like he keeps buying books even though his mind is made up that they don't work for him. That seems like the repeat-the-same-experiment-and-expect-different-results problem. Simple solution for Jeff: Quit buying books.

Jack, W8TEE

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 10:22:16 AM EDT, Christopher Miller <djmalak2k6@...> wrote:

I think Jeff makes a good point. I personally have a reading disability. Writing a book for everyone is impossible.

Chris

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

Bob Lunsford

#80023

Jack, I've heard of C, and others like C+ and C++ which I assume are refinements of the basic C. Is this also your intention, to introduce basic C plus some enhancements? Just curious.

Bob — KK5R

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 11:28:39 AM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.

I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of

new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.

Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have

come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,

if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv

_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I
        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and
        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?
I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.
Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.
But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes
AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

Dean Souleles

#80026

Jack and all -

I was going to mention my battered copy of K&R as well - but got beaten to the punch.

Old programmers never die, they just inherit new attributes.

I mentioned this in another thread - being derived from C is most of what is wrong (and much of what is right) with almost all modern programming languages - weak (non-existent) typing, difficult to read, obscure, non-deterministic syntax, odd constructs, lack of memory management and, as others have noted, many parts of the language are "weak beyond repair".

And yet we love it because we have it. And if you pay attention to W8TEE you can write good, maintainable code in C and all its derivatives.

It is just way too easy to write atrocious code..

Now don't get me started on C++

Dean
KK4DAS

Arv Evans

#80027

Now that we have coerced a number of C-programmers to expose

themselves and their talents, it may be time to start on enhanced

code for uBITX and similar equipment. Processors are now

inexpensively available for small things to large fast things. What is

holding us back, other than old age and age related malise?

Arv K7HKL

_._

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 2:30 PM Dean Souleles <dsouleles@...> wrote:

Jack and all -

I was going to mention my battered copy of K&R as well - but got beaten to the punch.

Old programmers never die, they just inherit new attributes.

I mentioned this in another thread - being derived from C is most of what is wrong (and much of what is right) with almost all modern programming languages - weak (non-existent) typing, difficult to read, obscure, non-deterministic syntax, odd constructs, lack of memory management and, as others have noted, many parts of the language are "weak beyond repair".

And yet we love it because we have it. And if you pay attention to W8TEE you can write good, maintainable code in C and all its derivatives.

It is just way too easy to write atrocious code..

Now don't get me started on C++

Dean
KK4DAS

Jack, W8TEE

#80031

FWIW, I'm working on a CAT interface for Hans' QCX. Had a setback when a shelf collapsed on the QCX and had to replace it. I would suggest the Teensy 4 for any future software. It has 2MB of flash, 1MB of SRAM, and is clocked at 600Mhz:

At a cost of $20, it's worth it. Just my $0.02 worth.

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 4:59:19 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:

Now that we have coerced a number of C-programmers to expose

themselves and their talents, it may be time to start on enhanced

code for uBITX and similar equipment. Processors are now

inexpensively available for small things to large fast things. What is

holding us back, other than old age and age related malise?

Arv K7HKL

_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 2:30 PM Dean Souleles <dsouleles@...> wrote:

Jack and all -

I was going to mention my battered copy of K&R as well - but got beaten to the punch.

Old programmers never die, they just inherit new attributes.

I mentioned this in another thread - being derived from C is most of what is wrong (and much of what is right) with almost all modern programming languages - weak (non-existent) typing, difficult to read, obscure, non-deterministic syntax, odd constructs, lack of memory management and, as others have noted, many parts of the language are "weak beyond repair".

And yet we love it because we have it. And if you pay attention to W8TEE you can write good, maintainable code in C and all its derivatives.

It is just way too easy to write atrocious code..

Now don't get me started on C++

Dean
KK4DAS

--
Jack, W8TEE

Jack, W8TEE

#80032

Hi Bob:

Just about anything a ham might want to do can be done with "pure" C. Someone once said C allows you plenty of room to shoot yourself in the foot, and that's very true. However, C++ let's you blow your entire leg off. Some languages (e.g., Java) don't trust you so they do run-time checks (read: slow everything down) or don't give you those things that add power to the language (i.e., pointers). Java is C with training wheels. I try to use the C++ concept of encapsulation in my day-to-day C code, and I like the concept of polymorphism. However, inheritance offers a lot of ways to screw things up if you truly don't understand the language. For someone who wants to augment a hobby, C is more than good enough. However, because the Arduino libraries are written in C++ for the most part, the new book also has a chapter on C++, but with a better explanation of it...I think...than the current Beginning C book does. Adding more processors just made sense, too. So, I'm really interested in helping those who want to "make" something and see C as a component in doing that. I'll steal from C++ those things I think make someone a better C programmer. Above all, however, the journey should still be a fun one.

Jack, W8TEE

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 3:48:32 PM EDT, Bob Lunsford via groups.io <nocrud222@...> wrote:

Jack, I've heard of C, and others like C+ and C++ which I assume are refinements of the basic C. Is this also your intention, to introduce basic C plus some enhancements? Just curious.

Bob — KK5R

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 11:28:39 AM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.

I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of

new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.

Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have

come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,

if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv

_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:

        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I
        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and
        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?
I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.
Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.
But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes
AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

Roderick Hart

#80033

Jack are you going to provide a compiler like some of the training books did years ago. I learned at Bell Labs Training center in Piscataway. I used a CPM Microsoft compiler at home to really learn the language, but it was important to have an environment consistent with the tools used in training. The other really significant aid is to have the examples and exercises on a disk.

I was never a programmer but I for almost 20 years managed Unix operation and maintenance in a bell operating company. It was very helpful to know and understand what my people did. I completed all of the Bell Lab Desec

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Show quoted text

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:52:49 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Beta Readers, closed!

Hi Bob:

Just about anything a ham might want to do can be done with "pure" C. Someone once said C allows you plenty of room to shoot yourself in the foot, and that's very true. However, C++ let's you blow your entire leg off. Some languages (e.g., Java) don't trust you so they do run-time checks (read: slow everything down) or don't give you those things that add power to the language (i.e., pointers). Java is C with training wheels. I try to use the C++ concept of encapsulation in my day-to-day C code, and I like the concept of polymorphism. However, inheritance offers a lot of ways to screw things up if you truly don't understand the language. For someone who wants to augment a hobby, C is more than good enough. However, because the Arduino libraries are written in C++ for the most part, the new book also has a chapter on C++, but with a better explanation of it...I think...than the current Beginning C book does. Adding more processors just made sense, too. So, I'm really interested in helping those who want to "make" something and see C as a component in doing that. I'll steal from C++ those things I think make someone a better C programmer. Above all, however, the journey should still be a fun one.

Jack, W8TEE

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 3:48:32 PM EDT, Bob Lunsford via groups.io <nocrud222@...> wrote:

Jack, I've heard of C, and others like C+ and C++ which I assume are refinements of the basic C. Is this also your intention, to introduce basic C plus some enhancements? Just curious.

Bob — KK5R

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 11:28:39 AM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:

Jack

My first C-language book was K&R (Kernighan & Ritchie) "The C Programming Language" in 1778.

I still have a copy that Denis Ritchie signed for me at Bell Labs. After that there were a plethora of

new C-Language books, including yours. Some were very good (yours) and some were not so good.

Thanks for the good work and for introducing many new programmers to C. Other languages have

come and gone, but C seems to be the basis that we still rely on for a high level language that can,

if necessary, get down and dirty at the machine language level.

Arv

_._

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:05 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Jeff:

Yes, I have considered that. I wrote my first C book in 1982. It went through 3 editions and sold over 237,000 copies. It was also translated into 10 foreign languages, including Chinese, but I have no records on those sales. (Translation rights are a single-payment right-of-transfer.) BTW, as a frame of reference, a technical book that sells out the first printing (usually 5,000-10,000 copies) is considered a success.

This new book is my 20th programming book and is the distillation of 40 years of using C and over 30 years of teaching C plus owning a company that produced the first C compiler with an IDE. (Yep, even before Borland.) As to:



        I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I

        thought was self-standing. Most products made today put ease-of- learning and

        use as a nice-to-have option.

seems like a comment that is a bit harsh and painted with a too-wide brush. Perhaps you just aren't reading the right books?

Jack, W8TEE

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 10:52:59 PM EDT, Jeff Debes <jeff.debes@...> wrote:

Best of luck ......but its a very tall order to write anything on that subject that everyone can understand.
People have different minds, abilities and very different styles of learning .
Have you considered that the design of ‘C’ itself is cryptic and may never be easy for most to learn?

I never encountered any programming language book ( C or otherwise) that I thought was self-standing.

Most products made today put ease-of- learning and use as a nice-to-have option.

But again, good luck with the effort.

Jeff Debes

AC2JB

On Jun 21, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

All:

Is this a great group of people or what? Almost 100 individuals offered their time to help read my new intro C book. To everyone one, thank you!

There is no way that I can read and do justice to the comments from 100 readers, so I need to shut down the volunteer Beta readers appeal and consider it closed. I will likely thin the number to perhaps a dozen or so readers. I'll do this in the next two days.

Again, thank you for your support...it is sincerely appreciated.

73,

Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
jeff.debes@...

--
Jack, W8TEE

--
Jack, W8TEE